Golden Flower Meditation

[allinone]

warning slightly offtopic, so i use hidden function.

Spoiler

 

when you are aware of breath you are practicing what is before heart formed a self and its world what is on your hand and mind is connected to it.

So keep yourself away from hand head connection. If you don't do hand activities, then you will forget the world and come aware what is before the world and these are desires and urges what command you like a puppet.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2017 by allinone

[non-doer]

Hey everyone! I was able to find a copy of the Yi Jo Wi Xi whatever book, and I've already read the part where it talks about the golden flower. It just doesn't seem like there's a place where he mentions the backwards circulation method directly, that's rather strange! I'll read it again, maybe I missed it. I think there was a part about the microcosmic orbit, but nothing to straight about it.

[turtlehermit]

On 11/21/2017 at 8:26 AM, non-doer said:

Hey everyone! I was able to find a copy of the Yi Jo Wi Xi whatever book, and I've already read the part where it talks about the golden flower. It just doesn't seem like there's a place where he mentions the backwards circulation method directly, that's rather strange! I'll read it again, maybe I missed it. I think there was a part about the microcosmic orbit, but nothing to straight about it.

Good point. The Golden Flower book does a nice job of explaining how to tune the breath naturally, without extraneous methods. Would anyone else agree that the circulation of the light and the microcosmic orbit are one and the same, and that they occur naturally as the chi circulates through the body? Another word for kundalini? After the breath has stabilized and sufficient energy is produced in the lower dantian? "When in ordinary life one has the ability always to react to things by reflexes only, without any admixture of a thought of others or of himself, that is a circulation of the Light arising out of circumstances. it is the first secret." - Golden Flower.

[joeblast]

one and the same?  absolutely not.

[turtlehermit]

9 hours ago, joeblast said:

one and the same?  absolutely not.

can you explain the difference? Found this with one search "The 'Microcosmic Orbit (小周天), also known as the 'Self Winding Wheel of the Law' and the circulation of light is a Taoist Qigong or Taoist yoga Qi energy cultivation technique."

[Mudfoot]

On 2017-12-02 at 3:03 AM, turtlehermit said:

 Another word for kundalini? 

No. 

[turtlehermit]

1 hour ago, Mudfoot said:

No. 

can you explain the difference?

[Mudfoot]

1 hour ago, turtlehermit said:

can you explain the difference?

If I find the time,  I will quote a fairly good explanation of the usefulness of raising kundalini, which differs from having a kundalini syndrome. 

Unless CT beats me to it. 

[Mudfoot]

Without the quote, so there is room for mistakes :

 

1) You activate the fire. 

2) The fire burns up the central channel, incinerating obstacles and blockages. 

3) The fire melts the white bindu in the head. 

4) The white bindu extinguish the fire. 

5) Emptiness remains. 

 

[Cheshire Cat]

On 2/12/2017 at 3:03 AM, turtlehermit said:

(...) Would anyone else agree that the circulation of the light and the microcosmic orbit are one and the same, and that they occur naturally as the chi circulates through the body?

 

When those ancient philosophers talk about "light", they explain openly that it's the light of consciousness. 

Therefore, circulation of the light is a mental exercise with a conceptual nature: when the thoughts arise, you look for the self that gave birth to them.

 

Microcosmic orbit is a mental exercise in which you concentrate solely on tactile sensations. It's an exercise in which even if your mind wanders, you can still hold on tactile sensation.

 

The first exercise is harmful when you enter into some sort of trance state (which will happen after some time). The second exercise is harmful on its own because it directly causes mess in the nervous system: practitioners love to call this method "energy practice", because they think that they're working with some special energy in the body.

 

They're both useless.

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Cheshire Cat

[Mudfoot]

The light that can pop up spontaneously in some methods is entertaining though. 

And, at times,  annoying. 

[joeblast]

11 hours ago, turtlehermit said:

can you explain the difference? Found this with one search "The 'Microcosmic Orbit (小周天), also known as the 'Self Winding Wheel of the Law' and the circulation of light is a Taoist Qigong or Taoist yoga Qi energy cultivation technique."

Correlation is not causation - or congruence, for that matter.  The light of awareness.  Where is the seat of awareness.  Niwan. Ergo once consciousness itself manifests light, turn it around there.  I'll give that one a personal thumbs up.  Finding the source of the i-thought is another good one. Same focusing behind and in between the eyes in taoist yoga.  So the process goes, learn your anapanasati until very quiet, until sparks of yang come from the deep quiet, once you do this in the lower it is easy to feel out a reflection of the signal in the upper center - then you enhance that signal, by turning the light around.  This feeds back and makes anapanasati more fruitful and energetic processes become more efficient.  That's how you burn the pattern onto the medulla - by simultaneously turning the light around at the niwan, turn inhale, turn exhale, a double waxing pattern so that its a double periodicity with the breath - combined with feeling the motions of the gut and working the timing to high efficiency. Thus there is a waxing of the energy concurrent with the peak and the trough of the breath pattern.  Being able to really unplug oneself from the breathing, as a matter of purposefully arranging conditions for it - requires that the medulla be well programmed.  Mindful breath sounds like a nice term, but the reality is that the focus and the feeling must be present as a matter of long and rote training, but really should only be a matter of a few months.

 

That is all prerequisite to having energies congeal a bit and then the pestle is ready to meet the bowl

 

6 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

When those ancient philosophers talk about "light", they explain openly that it's the light of consciousness. 

Therefore, circulation of the light is a mental exercise with a conceptual nature: when the thoughts arise, you look for the self that gave birth to them.

 

Microcosmic orbit is a mental exercise in which you concentrate solely on tactile sensations. It's an exercise in which even if your mind wanders, you can still hold on tactile sensation.

 

The first exercise is harmful when you enter into some sort of trance state (which will happen after some time). The second exercise is harmful on its own because it directly causes mess in the nervous system: practitioners love to call this method "energy practice", because they think that they're working with some special energy in the body.

 

They're both useless.

Not all energetic expressions are simply mental exercises.  It could reasonably be considered intellectually dishonest to assert congruence between those terms.  Thoughts are superfluous - they arise because of unresolved energies that have nowhere better to go.  The brain builds its neural networks upon habit and experience, therefore the quieting of the mind wont be a short path.  But I've explained how a very purposed rote method of respiration, when ingrained and supported by the brain adjusting its neural networks upon these habits and experience, directly leads to this random-thought-free state.  This happens because the pathways for energy have been rerouted and supported properly - they turn the light around.  There isnt sensate data pouring in so much and so fast that the energetic resonances build up and look for that pressure-release-valve vis a vis the higher brain centers, know as random thoughts. 

 

MCO is an energetic expression, there's ways to train the pathway for enhanced bandwidth.  We enhance all kinds of bandwidths and attenuate all kinds of other bandwidths in various fashions by virtue of many other practices.  Useless?  Perhaps if you could qualify that one, but there have been enough of those discussions whereby the men of straw invariably join the conversation.  Go look at the Huo Hou Tu, its right there in the code wheel, that's one of the big 3 internal alchemy charts - do you know its function?  (Turning the light around concurs with the red digrams in terms of when to learn it.have to know it by. but really, it can be part of the single white yang yin lines)

 

 

 

I really dislike the word trance when referring to states, because it tends to have a correlation with obliviousness.  These are all focus of awareness, the awareness should never be dull.  And it must be so, for when you get to certain places, you cant stay there unless the awareness is perfectly focused.  Not wavering a bit.  After a dozen or so times entering so deeply, the surprise and cool holy shitness of it wears off and then it gets easier to stabilize.  That's where I couldnt tell the difference between 20 minutes and 2 hours, that's where I was able to perceive the thoughtform bubbles form on the side of the niwan like bubbles of carbonation in a soda, and then learning to deny them the energy to manifest at all.

 

Make no mistake, that's just a dynamic and it can be lost.  But because it is so, and because I regained so many times, I'm perfectly confident about the neurological approach to entering that door.  Its just like it is said in the classics and old writings, I'm just reiterating it all in modern language.  You can get pretty much the same thing out of reading classics on the analogous material, if you do the practice...and then have enough western anatomical information ingested also that it puts a whole new crossover on interpretation, yet...its still just the same thing.  I just have more powerful tools of language that I can be more explicit with.

 

Aside from your first sentence, your post relies on logical misunderstanding and logical fallacy.  Now that sounds rude, but it just is what it is.  Fireworks are not harmful when they are handled and lit properly   (I have no sympathy for those that light off bottle rockets from their butt cheeks, hahahaha)

Edited December 3, 2017 by joeblast

[turtlehermit]

It seems like people have varying opinions as to what these things are, and their value. In rereading the text it does explain the circulation is when thoughts arise, circle back to the breathing. This is different from what today the microcosmic orbit is explained as circulating energy through the spine. Kundalini is very similar and the energy is the same, just different words and methods.  

 

When it says focus between the eyes on the "yellow middle" is confusing to me, seeing as most other methods would suggest focusing on the lower dantian, which is usually associated with yellow. Is this a mistranslation? or just a different technique?

Edited December 4, 2017 by turtlehermit

[Cheshire Cat]

17 hours ago, joeblast said:

(...)

 

Not all energetic expressions are simply mental exercises. 

 

The subjects of this speculation are vague and ephemeral enough without adding more confusion relying on "energetic expressions".

All forms of qigong and all forms of energy workings relies heavily on mental exercises. Not only that: mental exercises of visualization and generation of tactile sensations are either the basic or the secret level of the various energy practices.

Therefore, it's honest to say that energy practices are mental exercises.

 

17 hours ago, joeblast said:

The brain builds its neural networks upon habit and experience, therefore the quieting of the mind wont be a short path. 

 

But I could teach anyone how to quiet their minds with only mental exercises in less than 20 minutes: the result is the "amazing" random-thought-free state.

 

Actually, it's a very short path.

 

Your theory is limited to (and by) your experience.

 

 

17 hours ago, joeblast said:

 

MCO is an energetic expression, there's ways to train the pathway for enhanced bandwidth.  We enhance all kinds of bandwidths and attenuate all kinds of other bandwidths in various fashions by virtue of many other practices.  Useless?  Perhaps if you could qualify that one, but there have been enough of those discussions whereby the men of straw invariably join the conversation. 

 

You can't regrow your teeth, you can't regrow your fallen hairs, you can't cure eye problems, you can't cure cancer and you can't prolong your life by a single day.

The "marvellous" experiences and effects produced by MCO practices are physical sensations (which 99% of the time are enough to generate a devote practitioner-for-life), trance states and various psychological placebos.

 

 

17 hours ago, joeblast said:

 

Go look at the Huo Hou Tu, its right there in the code wheel, that's one of the big 3 internal alchemy charts - do you know its function?  (Turning the light around concurs with the red digrams in terms of when to learn it.have to know it by. but really, it can be part of the single white yang yin lines)

 

I don't assume that internal alchemy is a legit spiritual science. Jehovah's witnesses can't point at the Bible to prove their faith becasue I don't consider the Bible more than a mythological tale... and you can't point at colored charts to convince me for the same reason.

 

 

 

 

[joeblast]

4 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 

The subjects of this speculation are vague and ephemeral enough without adding more confusion relying on "energetic expressions".  You havent understood more than just some words - therefore its not a good method, to use words to describe things?

All forms of qigong and all forms of energy workings relies heavily on mental exercises. Not only that: mental exercises of visualization and generation of tactile sensations are either the basic or the secret level of the various energy practices.

Therefore, it's honest to say that energy practices are mental exercises.

Ah, so you'll miss the meanings of words and then rely on the no true scotsman fallacy here.  okaaay!

 

But I could teach anyone how to quiet their minds with only mental exercises in less than 20 minutes: the result is the "amazing" random-thought-free state.

Yeah yeah, we're not talking about the same thing here.  This is like saying I can teach anyone to train to run a mile really quickly.  If you dont run a 4 minute mile in practice, you wont run a 4 minute mile in competition, and you wont do either without training for it.  Sure one can take 20 minutes and attain a reasonable quiescence.  But the thought free state doesnt last.  What I'm describing is a way to make it last, but I guess people dont usually grok that one?  You're telling me you can simply defeat your neurology on command!  Hahahahaha!  Yeah, that's just further revealing your misunderstandings of what I've written.  If you're not going to take the time to understand it, why take the time to bitch about it?

 

Actually, it's a very short path.

Your theory is limited to (and by) your experience.

"Theory" lol.  Simple and easy doesnt necessarily mean short, short doesnt necessarily mean quick - we all have different amounts of work to do.

 

 

You can't regrow your teeth, you can't regrow your fallen hairs, you can't cure eye problems, you can't cure cancer and you can't prolong your life by a single day.

The "marvellous" experiences and effects produced by MCO practices are physical sensations (which 99% of the time are enough to generate a devote practitioner-for-life), trance states and various psychological placebos.

but I already knew your opinion that nothing exists outside the box you've created in your mind.

 

 

I don't assume that internal alchemy is a legit spiritual science. Jehovah's witnesses can't point at the Bible to prove their faith becasue I don't consider the Bible more than a mythological tale... and you can't point at colored charts to convince me for the same reason.

cmon contrarian, surely you can come up with better excuses than this.  referencing the bible, one might as well be dragging out the nazi argument, its just as fruitful.

lol, just how does one tell another they're simply wrong, without being or sounding like a dick about it? 

Edited December 4, 2017 by joeblast

[allinone]

6 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

Therefore, it's honest to say that energy practices are mental exercises.

 

flash memory comes from belly, body. You can visualize certain past events and when a certain "facepalm" memory comes its  from belly.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by allinone

[allinone]

just saying i like your posts, effort Joeblast.

[Cheshire Cat]

It's time to agree to disagree.

[Mudfoot]

Pointless though, trying to convince someone who hold the opposite opinion. 

 

Does the MCO hold no possible benefits? 

 

Aligning your body have health benefits. 

Adjusting your breath have health benefits. 

Calming your mind have health benefits. 

Having interesting internal experiences can have psychological benefits. 

 

But this can be done without the MCO. 

So is it just the MCO that is pointless? 

 

Solution: Practice yoga 

[joeblast]

4 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Pointless though, trying to convince someone who hold the opposite opinion. 

 

Does the MCO hold no possible benefits? 

 

Aligning your body have health benefits. 

Adjusting your breath have health benefits. 

Calming your mind have health benefits. 

Having interesting internal experiences can have psychological benefits. 

 

But this can be done without the MCO. 

So is it just the MCO that is pointless? 

 

Solution: Practice yoga 

Agreeing to disagree, now there's a funny invention.  As if I'm trying to tie him down and make him MCO   its why I likened it to breathwork, you can either have a poor method and waste 20 years doing it, or have a very thorough method and underscore decades of other practices with it.  You can do the contrived looping method commonly taught and waste time on it, or you can work on the fundamentals that produce aforementioned resonances in the mco pathway.  Similarly, it'll take you all day and a lot of broken sticks to stir up concrete, but when you have a mixer that completes the turning for you, then you can actually make enough concrete to make it a worthwhile endeavor.

 

Of course I'm not making the mco out to be some be all end all panacea practice, but just more to put it in its proper place in a larger context of practices.

 

Why are we on this in this subject thread, anyway?  Oh yes, a conflation of light

[blue eyed snake]

6 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

All forms of qigong and all forms of energy workings relies heavily on mental exercises. Not only that: mental exercises of visualization and generation of tactile sensations are either the basic or the secret level of the various energy practices.

 

 

strange, I've been doing chigung for some years and never have done any mental exercise. So at least one form of chigug is free of that. But it did open the so called MCO. 

 

i think I've mentioned that before 

[allinone]

23 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

strange, I've been doing chigung for some years and never have done any mental exercise. So at least one form of chigug is free of that. But it did open the so called MCO. 

 

i think I've mentioned that before 

 

1

Mental is spirit, ojas. You have it already therefore you can move your legs and hands, breath. When you don't anymore you die to some failure. Your organism self organizes. Its told we have definite amount of it.

2

Anyways how you are able to see events as single feeling. Like birthday feeling, friend feeling, you acquire feelings because you have done so many times this that you can intuit real sense by reflections.

3

imagine now you can use mental energy indirectly to fire synapses and there will be a response in flesh. What you need cultivate that the fire would happen and how over time you get closer and closer to answer but not yet there, you know you have to cultivate if not you never will know.

[turtlehermit]

I think we're talking about the gut brain now. Which reminds me of if anyone thinks the "center amidst conditions" should be referring to the ldt instead of the third eye, and perhaps a mistranslation by wilhelm? I believe cleary might agree to some extent, also saying there is no center. But I find it useful for getting into that "thoughtless" state.  

[thelerner]

So.. what should a Golden Flower meditation session look like? 

Here's my shot..

To me, its sitting, I do half lotus, probably full lotus is better.  Eyes relaxed, in 'half eye' position, lids half closed, a lightly staring at the tip of the nose.  The mental focus is on the third eye.  Not the surface, a little deeper in.   A secondary focus on the breath and keeping it as quiet, noiseless as possible.  Which automatically means slow and gentle.  Especially on at the beginning and end points. 

 

Keeping up this up as long as is comfortable or perhaps a little longer.   Let thinking go, only the stare, the mental focus on 3rd eye, and a vigilant ever so quiet breathing.

Edited December 14, 2017 by thelerner

[Mudfoot]

On 2017-12-05 at 4:34 AM, turtlehermit said:

 "center amidst conditions" should be referring to the ldt 

Center amidst conditions could be interpreted as the empty space within the ring of yin-yang. As in this LDT image. 

But,  as in all these books, it might be a code for whatever, and thus up to interpretation. 

And I obviously placed the picture inside the quote.