Favorite Daoist Quote

[OldDog]

Glad to have helped. Would like to know your impressions after you get into it.

[Starjumper]

On 12/30/2017 at 1:54 PM, zerostao said:

Don't go fucking things up.

 

On 12/30/2017 at 7:11 PM, Marblehead said:

Yep.  You heavily paraphrased that one.

 

On 12/30/2017 at 8:05 PM, zerostao said:

It's unattainable, maybe throw that one out. replace it with chop wood carry water

 

I will say that 'don't go fucking things' up makes me think of the following quote from Lao Tzu  "The more you mess with stuff the more messed up it gets",  rather than chop wood carry water. 

[Starjumper]

On 2/12/2018 at 9:30 AM, Marblehead said:

Tao has substance, but is not confined in space; it has length, but its source cannot be traced. 

 

Disagree, no substance and no length.  What do those words really mean there?

[Marblehead]

49 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Disagree, no substance and no length.  What do those words really mean there?

You are allowed to disagree with me.  You will always be wrong but that doesn't matter.

 

Tao has substance - the Manifest universe.

 

Tao has length (time) - but Tao existed prior to the existence of time/space so it is not confined within it.

 

 

[Marblehead]

PS  You asked for clarification after disagreeing.  That's backasswards.

 

Ask for clarification first then if I didn't do a good job, disagree.

 

BTW  That quote is from my own collection of Taoist quotes.  It originated with a translator of either the TTC or, more likely, the Chuang Tzu.

 

[Starjumper]

22 hours ago, Marblehead said:

PS  You asked for clarification after disagreeing.  That's backasswards.

 

Ask for clarification first then if I didn't do a good job, disagree.

 

BTW  That quote is from my own collection of Taoist quotes.  It originated with a translator of either the TTC or, more likely, the Chuang Tzu.

 

It's OK, it's incorrect anyway.  I asked for definitions just in case there was some word meaning that would make the statement in question correct, but there isn't.

 

22 hours ago, Marblehead said:

You are allowed to disagree with me.  You will always be wrong but that doesn't matter.

 

Tao has substance - the Manifest universe.

 

Tao has length (time) - but Tao existed prior to the existence of time/space so it is not confined within it.

 

No substance, the manifest universe is the product of Tao, a product of the workings of Tao, but it isn't Tao.  Tao is "the way the univerese functions", like the 'laws' of physics', laws have no material substance.

 

No Length, saying 'time' smacks of playing with words (like 'long time;), time is not a substance so does not have any real physical length.

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, Starjumper said:

Let's see how much I can mess with you.  You are a pretty good challenge for me most off the time.

 

1 minute ago, Starjumper said:

It's OK, it's incorrect anyway.  I asked for definitions just in case there was some word meaning that would make the statement in question correct, but there isn't.

Oh!, but it is correct.  I'll show you. 

 

1 minute ago, Starjumper said:

No substance, the manifest universe is the product of Tao, a product of the workings of Tao, but it isn't Tao.  Tao is "the way the univerese functions", like the 'laws' of physics', laws have no material substance.

What?  You are not a being of substance?  Your home is not an item of substance?  Remember the Ten Thousand Things?  That's the manifest universe.  The Ten Thousand Things are aspects of Tao.

 

Now wait a minute.  Tzujan is the way the universe functions.  And no, not even laws but rather processes.  But I will agree that laws have no material substance.  The Mystery (Wu) has no material substance.  (Dark Matter and Dark Energy are in there somewhere.)

 

1 minute ago, Starjumper said:

 

No Length, saying 'time' smacks of playing with words (like 'long time;), time is not a substance so does not have any real physical length.

I have been accused of playing with words before.  I have never seen that as a problem.  There was no time prior to the Big Bang.  Tao existed prior to the Big Bang.  Therefore Tao must be outside the confines of time and space.

 

But we apply length to time, don't we?  Minute, hour, day, etc.  All measurements of the length of time.  Of course, we measure space too - the distance between one object and another.

 

So while it is true that time itself is not an object it is a tool for measurement.  Without the concept of time we could never measure speed and we all know that speed kills.

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Once I walked through the gateless gate, the homeland  of nothing whatsoever, The formless realm, the beginning and end of what is.  Like a well never run dry, time has no effect, the laws of yin and yang do not apply, there is nothing to stick to.

 

Then I wake up a butterfly thinking to myself seriously a freking butterfly I was a human just a minute ago. 

 

All this dust, I see my chair turn to dust in just a few thousand years but for now this chair works just fine. More like the tree it left behind.

[Starjumper]

11 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I have been accused of playing with words before.  I have never seen that as a problem.  There was no time prior to the Big Bang.  Tao existed prior to the Big Bang.  Therefore Tao must be outside the confines of time and space.

 

Yes, outside of time and space.

 

11 hours ago, Marblehead said:

 

But we apply length to time, don't we?  Minute, hour, day, etc.  All measurements of the length of time.  Of course, we measure space too - the distance between one object and another.

 

OK, i'll let you get away with it this time but for me personally it doesn't work, because using the words manifest and length imply an  object.

 

11 hours ago, Marblehead said:

So while it is true that time itself is not an object it is a tool for measurement ...

 

[Marblehead]

4 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

OK, i'll let you get away with it this time but for me personally it doesn't work, because using the words manifest and length imply an  object.

 

Consider, if you will, that most of our life is lived within non-object concepts.  That is, all our emotions, our beliefs, our loves/hates, our "feelings", our spirituality, etc.

 

These are the "mystery" (wu) aspects of our life.

 

Then we have the manifest aspects, my butt is sitting on the chair while I type on this computer keyboard.

 

 

[Marblehead]

The Sage does not clutter up his mind with worries, and is flexible in his adjustment to external conditions. 

[OldDog]

A dog is not considered good because of his barking, and a man is not considered clever because of his ability to talk. -CZ

[Marblehead]

The learned is not necessarily wise, and the good talker is not necessarily clever.

[zerostao]

23 hours ago, Marblehead said:

The learned is not necessarily wise, and the good talker is not necessarily clever.

knowledge and wisdom, two different things
IMO) a 'good talker' uses concise language, eloquent is something else-- I do have a weakness for eloquent people-
- However, simple and concise is preferred.
State your point/case in clear, understandable language. For me, clever is one of those tricky words. I think most use that word as a positive descriptor. I don't. Clever is not wisdom. Clever could be a tactic; a two move cheap shot sort of thing.
 

[Marblehead]

Yes, clever is a tricky word.  I'm sure I have seen that concept presented more efficiently but these quotes that I am posting are very old and date back to when I had nor read many translations of the TTC.

 

 

[Marblehead]

Better to abandon the hopeless effort of denying what the other affirms and affirming what the other denies, and seek True Light!

[Daemon]

☮️

 

Edited October 5, 2018 by Daemon

[Marblehead]

Opposites produce each other, depend on each other, and complement each other.

[OldDog]

The Great (universe) gives me this form, this toil in manhood, this repose in old age, this rest in death. Surely that which is such a kind arbiter of my life is the best arbiter of my death. - Chuangtse

[Marblehead]

On both sides of every argument there is generally both right and wrong and in the end they are reducible to the same thing.

[Marblehead]

The soul is disturbed by any effort of self-conscious demonstration.  All such demonstrations are lies.

[Marblehead]

Each thing, seen in its own light, stands out in its own way.  It can seem to be better than what is compared with it on its own terms but seen in terms of the whole, no one thing stands out as better.

[OldDog]

What it [the mind] finds to be true, it accepts, and what it finds to be false, it rejects. For this reason I say: what the mind apprehends, allow it to do so without restraining it. Allow things to spontaneously appear to the mind in their breadth of diversity, with the extent of the mind’s nature remaining not-two. XunZi  (Dan G Reid)

[Marblehead]

That is one hellova concept.  Well worthy of a thread of its own.

 

[Kara_mia]

They who know me are few, they who take a cue from me are precious (rare). It is thus that the sage wears (a poor garb of) hair cloth, while he carries his (signet of) jade in his bosom.