What happened to the Matriarchal Cultures

[rene]

30 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I disagree with you about feminism.  Feminism doesn`t say that women should be in stereotypically feminine roles or in stereotypically male roles.  Feminism says women should be in the roles they choose.  

 

Hi luke. I wish that were so, but it is not. This time, you might need to yield to someone who was there, as a woman in the work force, in the 70's, 80's, 90's & 2000's. Feminist organizations supporting women's rights, NOW etc, were only supportive of the women who agreed with their ideas. In the 2000's...feminist's mindsets did begin to include women who also wanted to stay at home, raise the kids, etc...as long as we did so along with being 'out there' banging against that glass ceiling. Some even promoted that we were better than men cause we could 'bring home the bacon and cook it up in the pan...' recall that commercial jingle? Not for nothing...there was a lot of pressure. And a lot of very exhausted women. They suffered, their kids suffered, their husbands suffered. (The reasons women went to the workforce are too off-topic, but once there...feminist movement arose.)

 

The feminist mindset did harm, imo, to a lot of females. If you were 'out there', natural maternal feelings were belittled, like we were turning our backs on the cause. Those who chose to remain at home, to take care of family - were laughed at and pitied, by those who had made the more 'correct' choice.

 

I wish it had been (and still was) as you believe it to be. Sadly, that's not the case. Other than the 'equal pay for equal work' aspect - there's been more harm than good. Of course I cannot speak for all women, and there are possibly exceptions at both ends of the spectrum. As always, perpetual IMO applied...but it's based on my direct experience, in a variety of fields, over 40 years.

 

warmest regards

[rene]

2 hours ago, Wells said:

Feminist societies don't want women in typical women roles and try to brainwash women into the belief that wanting children, being a mother, a housewife etc. means to succumb to male dominance and instead women are supposed to play men roles. Women who desire to be mothers etc. are looked down at and despised. Therefore, women in typical women roles don't enjoy many advantages or rewards.

 

On this, we agree.

 

[rene]

2 hours ago, dawei said:

.Feminist society is not matriarchal in what has been described.

 

On this, we agree.

[liminal_luke]

3 minutes ago, rene said:

 

Hi luke. I wish that were so, but it is not. This time, you might need to yield to someone who was there, as a woman in the work force, in the 70's, 80's, 90's & 2000's. 

 

Touche!  I don`t doubt the accuracy of your observations, Rene.  My definition and understanding of feminism is an idealized version and may not match the reality in the field.  Nevertheless, I consider myself a feminist (and a masculinist) in that I believe people ought to be free to follow their own path in the world.  Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that I am a humanist or a libertarian?

 

Cheris Kramara wrote that "feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings."  That is the definition I`m clinging to  -- because I think it`s the one we desperately need -- even if it doesn`t really represent feminism as practiced in the "real world" you reference.

 

Trauma warps people.  Oppression warps people.  And when people have been traumatized and oppressed, as I assert women have been, their subsequent attempts to overcome that oppression will reflect that warping. For this reason we see feminists who try to crawl their way out of oppression by becoming masculine -- and insisting their sisters do likewise.  Such "feminists" aren`t evil and bad; they`re just imperfect people reacting to an imperfect situation the best they can.  I see the same thing happening with the gay rights movement.  Many insecure young gay men act queeny and flamboyant -- more queeny than they really are in their authentic selves -- because they think this is the only way to be gay and they are following the model in their heads.  Maturity is the process of getting comfortable enough with ourselves to be ourselves; we allow ourselves to be as masculine or feminine as we truly are, rather than mimicking somebody else`s notion of who they think we should be.

 

 

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, dawei said:

 

 

 

yea, yea, yea... No Admin deed should go unpunished 

 

 

I humbly disagree.  Any admin deed that would effectively kick in the where-the-sun-don't-shine anyone resorting to ad hominem by way of an argument should not only go unpunished but, instead, be generously rewarded.  I would even pay a small monthly sum (if more bums agreed, it could add up!) to the mods for not letting anyone get away with things like "Absolutely deluded views you have!" instead of "Your views don't coincide with mine" or suchlike.   Seriously.  Not because I take offense (I am not that easy to offend personally -- though I do feel profoundly offended when vulnerable groups are attacked on the basis of racial, national, religious, gender, age, etc., discrimination, and are put on the receiving end of hate speech -- this I indeed find profoundly offensive.)  But because I quite spontaneously and inevitably lose interest toward anything else anyone who resorts to ad hominem attacks has to say. 

 

I can't help it.  This just kills my curiosity (curiosity didn't kill the cat, ad hominem killed the cat's curiosity is the real story, at least in the case of this cat).  It's like a signature "I'm going to attack you personally if I happen to disagree with your views" that gets invisibly attached to their name, and I wind up not reading any further -- and not just in a particular thread where it occurred.  One might say I impose my private sanctions for this.  No big deal.  But if a mod gets them to reconsider, then I resume reading.  So, I'd reward that.  

 

As for splitting -- I don't have a strong opinion, believe it or not.  I don't have to have a strong opinion about "everything," so about this, I dunno.  Up to the admin I guess...      

[rene]

16 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Touche!  I don`t doubt the accuracy of your observations, Rene.  My definition and understanding of feminism is an idealized version and may not match the reality in the field.  Nevertheless, I consider myself a feminist (and a masculinist) in that I believe people ought to be free to follow their own path in the world.  Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that I am a humanist or a libertarian?

 

Oh I'd have no idea, lol, maybe you are a luke-ist; just being who you are. (-: I don't do -ist labels, but if I did, I would be a wu-anarchist (hat-tip Marblehead, heh), which basically holds that 'people are free to follow their own path in the world'.

 

16 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Cheris Kramara wrote that "feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings."  That is the definition I`m clinging to  -- because I think it`s the one we desperately need -- even if it doesn`t really represent feminism as practiced in the "real world" you reference.

 

16 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Trauma warps people.  Oppression warps people.  And when people have been traumatized and oppressed, as I assert women have been, their subsequent attempts to overcome that oppression will reflect that warping. For this reason we see feminists who try to crawl their way out of oppression by becoming masculine -- and insisting their sisters do likewise.  Such "feminists" aren`t evil and bad; they`re just imperfect people reacting to an imperfect situation the best they can.  I see the same thing happening with the gay rights movement.  Many insecure young gay men act queeny and flamboyant -- more queeny than they really are in their authentic selves -- because they think this is the only way to be gay and they are following the model in their heads.  Maturity is the process of getting comfortable enough with ourselves to be ourselves; we allow ourselves to be as masculine or feminine as we truly are, rather than mimicking somebody else`s notion of who they think we should be.

 

Agree and well said. Especially that ^^^

 

Warm regards (-:

[gendao]

On 11/16/2017 at 9:49 PM, Aetherous said:

3) In my dealings with women, I've found them to be very intriguing. I can't imagine a world without them, and love them...but they're not a force for good, as is often unconsciously claimed. For instance, I've managed and lived at an 11 unit rental property for the past few years...95% of the problems we ever get are from the female tenants. And those problems are significant...such as hard drugs and loud music, orgies, domestic violence, etc. Or leaving with one day notice, then threatening to sue if the deposit isn't returned. Just crazy nonsense.

 

4) If the patriarchy is bad due to men abusing their position of power, sexually harassing women as we see in the news...that goes both ways! I had a female English teacher sexually harass me in middle school...she called me back to the classroom while everyone else was watching a video, and was stroking my lower abdomen while talking to me. Is that what the matriarchy is like?

22 hours ago, Taomeow said:

She kicked me out at the age of 11 months for getting sick too much, at a crucial juncture in her then-budding career where staying at home and nurturing her child to health and thriving would have been punished by society -- forever, for the rest of her life.  So she chose the reward, and got it.  However, in a parallel universe, where she is rewarded rather than punished for her role as a mother, she would have been a wonderful mother.  She could have used her talents to create happiness and love and peace -- every second of every day there's demand on a woman's natural creativity and intellect and heart to create that.  But in this one, it would have only generated misery, frustration and poverty if she chose that.  That's what I'm talking about all along.   

22 hours ago, Aetherous said:

In a truly patriarchal society, women as mothers and housemakers is the ideal. They are rewarded for doing that, by not having to earn money to survive and thrive.

OK, so after personally observing how women are causing 95% of completely degenerate social problems in your complex, how most of us all have deep-seated mother issues (including Taomeow's mom who apparently "kicked her out" before AGE 1 in favor of a CAREER???), watching a reality survivalist show about women loafing around on a beach until they got sent some male slaves, etc...why do you still subscribe to the diehard notion that women are "more nurturing?"  Maybe it "still" is or isn't true only relative to men...but I think that whole notion really needs to be reexamined in light of modern evidence now.

 

Because one can only be as good a parent as they are a person.  So, what kind of mother/homemaker is a boyfriend-beating woman who skips on rent after drug-fueled orgies going to be?  What kind of generation of kids are these women going to "raise?"

 

Now clearly, women are biologically-designed for childbearing and raising - and should play a primary role, at the very least.  But I think dads should also play a very involved parenting role too, far more than the "traditional" arrangement where he just went off to work everyday to bring home money.  Because I think that "tradition" really only started after modern industrialization and has already long been on the wane, now.  Whereas previously, I think dads were home a lot more on the homestead, or their hut in the village, etc.  So, he was still there and available a lot more than some guy working 50 hrs/week at a job somewhere else.

 

This is especially important if he has sons, who are typically far more rambunctious and physical for a woman to be able handle.  A stereotypical boy like this is going to NEED a dad he can roughhouse, get dirty, and be gross with.  Because just like men aren't built to breastfeed, women aren't built to manhandle tiger cubs.

 

Point being, I think it's a lot to expect for any woman to be a great mom, much less to do it mostly on her own (definitely as a single mom, but also including "working husband widows").  That arrangement is going to be overstressed and weak points will inevitably become exposed and fail.  Which is exactly what we've seen, even in the "traditional" housewife families...(although those are of course still INFINITELY better than modern single mother households).

22 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

But, the care of a handicapped son was not to be combined with the 60 hour workweek that was expected of me.

 

so that was out... nurturing.

O yes, I could have let him go to an institution...

 

any reason why a researcher cannot do excellent research working 25/ 30 hour a week??

Well, most white collar, corporate jobs try to minimize headcounts to reduce overhead, and want all employees to work AT LEAST full-time, if not OVERTIME, now.  Basically, only entry-level jobs at small businesses prefer to hire part-time employees, so they don't have to provide employer health insurance.  And this actually applies slightly even more to men than women, who get no maternity/paternity leave ever.

 

I mean, I admit it sucks for ALL employees who want a better work-life balance...but I understand why they do it, and it does apply to both men & women.

Edited November 18, 2017 by gendao

[thelerner]

nver mind. didn't add to the conversation.

Edited November 18, 2017 by thelerner

[Marblehead]

5 hours ago, thelerner said:

nver mind. didn't add to the conversation.

That's why I have posted only once in this thread.

 

[Aetherous]

9 hours ago, gendao said:

why do you still subscribe to the diehard notion that women are "more nurturing?"

 

I don't...I think individuals choose to become nurturing or not, male or female. (I think mothers tend to be called nurturing more, since they have the breastmilk that literally sustains a newborn life...but I'm using nurturing to just mean being beneficial to the growth of a kid and not harmful)

I know quite a few mothers who are really great, who I respect so much, and who give me hope for what women can be. There have also been some very respectful and responsible female tenants at the apartments I manage...so it's not that 95% of women where I live are insane...it's that 95% of the problems have been from women instead of men.

What you quoted from me was the ideal of a stereotypical patriarchal society, that men are constantly out doing things and women are taking care of the home and kids. It's not what I think is actually ideal for society.
 

9 hours ago, gendao said:

Now clearly, women are biologically-designed for childbearing and raising - and should play a primary role, at the very least.  But I think dads should also play a very involved parenting role too, far more than the "traditional" arrangement where he just went off to work everyday to bring home money.

 

I absolutely agree. Fathers are great, and essential to having healthy kids. I think there should be roughly equal time spent with both parents, if possible. Definitely not absentee fathers, and definitely not single mothers who ban the fathers from their kid's lives just because the court system favors them.

[Earl Grey]

On 11/18/2017 at 2:35 AM, vonkrankenhaus said:

"Matriarchy" used to be default.

 

Because women are gestating, birthing, rearing, and feeding all human beings.

 

At that time, humans were living and eating locally, in immediate surroundings.

 

In this setting, woman is "in charge".

 

Once long-distance trading and abstracted "commerce" became widespread, the focus "of value" shifted from the immediate to the distant and long-term. Long overland (or sea) trading require protection, which gives rise to "politics".

 

So after that time, the role and place of women was different.

 

Many women did and do participate in trading and politics, but by nature, they are bigger than these endeavors.

 

Woman understands creation intrinsically, internally.

 

Man always looking outside himself, hence his beginning such long-distance trades, and also looking especially to woman to become a "complete human experience".

 

Of course, this has been abstracted and stretched out of all proportion into so many things - patriarchy, feminism - none of which seem to penetrate anything but very superficial views of this overall phenomena.

 

Fake "society" concepts are at odds with reality - Yeah - no kidding.

 

Woman is the center of human life now just as in the past, but few understand this.

 

And at the center of this, the "uterus", where human is developing - is, originally, "emptiness".

 

It is amazing. 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

When I lived in Tanzania as a Peace Corp Volunteer, one may think that in the rural villages, men hold power and women are oppressed due to the first taste of life a Trainee experiences upon being delivered to their homestay family. 

 

Married couples in particular were outraged as men were urged to rest because of the assumption that they did all the hard work at sunrise until noon, breaking their backs, and then making decisions about where the child/volunteer can go and where they must not go. The women, still suffering from jet lag, were urged to bring water from the bottom of the hill, chop vegetables and cook, sweep, or watch over the chickens, and if all tasks were done, they would find more work for them. 

 

Our female volunteers initially found life very difficult to adjust to after coming from the United States. Later on, we all discovered that when doing village projects, the easiest way to find out what the needs of the community came from talking to the grandmothers and mothers, who knew everyone, who made financial decisions, and with one loud and very authoritative order, no man or child could hide or say no. 

 

My projects were a lot easier for me to understand when working with all the mamas (actually proper Kiswahili term for older women), because the men simply said "Yes" or "No" and then did the work, but the women knew the how and why and who. 

 

Who really ran the community there? I can't identify if it's patriarchal or matriarchal at that point. All I know is that those who held authority and "soft" power were the women, and frankly without them, I would have been unable to understand how to serve the community since the men seemed fairly content with things as they are even amidst food security, malaria, sexual health issues, and sanitation and hygiene. 

[cold]

7 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

When I lived in Tanzania as a Peace Corp Volunteer, one may think that in the rural villages, men hold power and women are oppressed due to the first taste of life a Trainee experiences upon being delivered to their homestay family. 

 

Married couples in particular were outraged as men were urged to rest because of the assumption that they did all the hard work at sunrise until noon, breaking their backs, and then making decisions about where the child/volunteer can go and where they must not go. The women, still suffering from jet lag, were urged to bring water from the bottom of the hill, chop vegetables and cook, sweep, or watch over the chickens, and if all tasks were done, they would find more work for them. 

 

Our female volunteers initially found life very difficult to adjust to after coming from the United States. Later on, we all discovered that when doing village projects, the easiest way to find out what the needs of the community came from talking to the grandmothers and mothers, who knew everyone, who made financial decisions, and with one loud and very authoritative order, no man or child could hide or say no. 

 

My projects were a lot easier for me to understand when working with all the mamas (actually proper Kiswahili term for older women), because the men simply said "Yes" or "No" and then did the work, but the women knew the how and why and who. 

 

Who really ran the community there? I can't identify if it's patriarchal or matriarchal at that point. All I know is that those who held authority and "soft" power were the women, and frankly without them, I would have been unable to understand how to serve the community since the men seemed fairly content with things as they are even amidst food security, malaria, sexual health issues, and sanitation and hygiene. 

 

Earl Grey thank you for your service!

[zerostao]

'Tis the middle of night by the castle clock
And the owls have awakened the crowing cock;
Tu-whit!- Tu-whoo!
And hark, again! the crowing cock,
How drowsily it crew.

 

https://www.wired.com/story/doomsday-clock-nuclear-war/

 

Taomeow, I remember you've posted about this clock more than once. it is now 11:58

[Taomeow]

3 hours ago, zerostao said:

'Tis the middle of night by the castle clock
And the owls have awakened the crowing cock;
Tu-whit!- Tu-whoo!
And hark, again! the crowing cock,
How drowsily it crew.

 

https://www.wired.com/story/doomsday-clock-nuclear-war/

 

Taomeow, I remember you've posted about this clock more than once. it is now 11:58

 

Yup...  And about the owl too, though not here. 

 

  

[Nungali]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khasi_people#Traditional_polity

 

Matriarchal, democratic and the builders of 'living bridges' 

 

 

 

 

[Taomeow]

Those living bridges are a great illustration of the way matriarchal societies do things differently.  No one stops them from cutting the trees -- you can make a bridge with logs much faster.  But walking on violence and death wherever you go does not seem attractive...  Patriarchy does not mind walking on violence and death toward any and all of its destinations.

[windwalker]

 

22 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Patriarchy does not mind walking on violence and death toward any and all of its destinations.

 

wow, seems like a very disconnected view point.  

 

A different viewpoint for contrast in a modern setting...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by windwalker

[windwalker]

On 11/20/2017 at 11:08 PM, cold said:

On 11/20/2017 at 11:00 PM, Earl Grey said:

Who really ran the community there? I can't identify if it's patriarchal or matriarchal at that point. All I know is that those who held authority and "soft" power were the women, and frankly without them, I would have been unable to understand how to serve the community since the men seemed fairly content with things as they are even amidst food security, malaria, sexual health issues, and sanitation and hygiene. 

 

 

 

You start out with not being able to distinctly identify who was really in charge and yet assume because you were allowed to interact with the women they were.  odd how evening living with them seems like you failed to understand the roles they played in their culture assuming who had the authority.

 

Maybe the men did not interact with you because they did not consider you a man in their eyes...and allowed the woman to interact with you. 

 

"the men seemed fairly content with things as they are even amidst food security, malaria, sexual health issues, and sanitation and hygiene. "

 

Reads like a very condescending view point, you expected the men to do what? 

Maybe in their eyes you you did not meet the requirements to be considered a man..... 

Edited February 11, 2018 by windwalker

[Taomeow]

58 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

 

wow, seems like a very disconnected view point.  

 

 

Your tiresome chronic ad hominem "arguments" just disconnected you from the last vestiges of my interest toward anything you have to say.  Welcome to my Ignore list of one.  

[windwalker]

1 minute ago, Taomeow said:

 

Your tiresome chronic ad hominem "arguments" just disconnected you from the last vestiges of my interest toward anything you have to say.  Welcome to my Ignore list of one.  

 

 

good, maybe you  can find a safe space. 

The point is you've made some assumptions from what seems to be a very different viewpoint not supported by history or human experience. I question them,,,you may or not be a good person.

 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

5 hours ago, windwalker said:

 

 

You start out with not being able to distinctly identify who was really in charge and yet assume because you were allowed to interact with the women they were.  odd how evening living with them seems like you failed to understand the roles they played in their culture assuming who had the authority.

 

Maybe the men did not interact with you because they did not consider you a man in their eyes...and allowed the woman to interact with you. 

 

"the men seemed fairly content with things as they are even amidst food security, malaria, sexual health issues, and sanitation and hygiene. "

 

Reads like a very condescending view point, you expected the men to do what? 

Maybe in their eyes you you did not meet the requirements to be considered a man..... 

 

In the words of Luke Skywalker from The Last Jedi, every word in that sentence (or rather, in this case, your entire post) was wrong.

 

Nobody "failed" to identify anything, it was a matter of implying not to rely on such static definitions that are culturally biased based on the spirit of this thread and the arguments people made against matriarchal cultures and for patriarchal cultures. 

 

As for how I interacted with the men there, not only were these lessons already what has been observed and taught by Tanzanian staff from the capitals and American and European scholars about cultural norms and preferences there, but an experience that is replicated time and again by generations of volunteers since 1963. My own personal experience living and working in 13 countries might also lend some authority to this observation as well. 

 

Quoting you specifically here, "Reads like a very condescending view point, you expected the men to do what? 

Maybe in their eyes you you did not meet the requirements to be considered a man..... " ad hominem attacks mind you do not fit the rules and regulations to be a member here. 

[windwalker]

"

"Reads like a very condescending view point, you expected the men to do what? 

Maybe in their eyes you you did not meet the requirements to be considered a man..... " ad hominem attacks mind you do not fit the rules and regulations to be a member here. "

 

Wow a simple statement is considered an attack.  

It was not an attack, it was a statement based on the information provided.

 

They ignored you,  did not offer any information,  and according to you were satisfied with the way things were, and answered the woman with yes and no...  ya ok   got it

Edited February 11, 2018 by windwalker

[windwalker]

On 11/9/2017 at 11:30 AM, Taomeow said:

1. I am a believer in traditional matriarchal societies that kept us safely alive and thriving and happy (sic) for a million years.  I don't think we ever got anything right on this planet since the patriarchal takeover. 

 

have what are called humans been alive for a million yrs

 

can you show what matriarchal societies kept people safe and happy until the "take over"

please point to when this take over took place

 

 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, windwalker said:

 

It was not an attack, it was a statement based on the information provided.

And I easily could say you sound ignorant and childish, and claim that's an observation based on information provided in your post, but none of what I posted was inferred by anyone else except you, and phrasing it as you have is not appropriate for someone your age. No woman was "allowed" to speak to me, they approached me of their own volition. I find it rather pompous for someone to presume he understands an entire culture's mindset (let alone my experience with them and learning their language and customs) based on what he's misread in a post.

 

An educated man asks questions and seeks to understand, for he can entertain other ideas but you have so far demonstrated that you are making conclusions that make me wonder if your own schooling is able to even match the level sophistication of Gomer Pyle.

 

They ignored you,  did not offer any information,  and according to you were satisfied with the way things were, and answered the woman with yes and no...  ya ok   got it

 

Nobody ignored me, nor was any information not offered, and I certainly wasn't "satisfied with the way things were" or answered the woman with yes and no. I fail to see where you get this information, but it appears from the very brief interaction we have had here that your arguments are based on making logical leaps, misreading things, and putting words in other people's mouths. That to me is far more "unmanly" than what you imply happened with me, and I highly suggest you seek to understand and clarify rather than make assumptions.

 

Might I recommend the title How to Read a Book by Mortimer J. Adler & Charles Van Doren, which is an intellectual how-to book on how to get the most out of books. Even those who consider themselves well read may find their analytical skills when it comes to reading lacking. 

 

It might also help to obtain a copy of The Elements of Style by Strunk and White to help better articulate your ideas afterwards, for so far, you are merely taking a condescending approach while failing to make any valid contribution to the dialogue here. 

 

I shall leave you with a quote that some attribute to Mark Twain, which says "Better to remain silent and have everyone think you a fool than to open your mouth and confirm their suspicions" and remind you of a term from the old days called a "busybody", which refers to someone who spends more time prying into the business of others because they've nothing better to do. I have given you two very good book recommendations, and shall leave you with the words of esteemed playwright George Bernard Shaw:

 

"What a man believes may be ascertained, not from his creed, but from the assumptions on which he habitually acts."

 

[windwalker]

17 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I highly suggest you seek to understand and clarify rather than make assumptions.

 

And I highly suggest if you dont like people questioning what you write t might not be a good idea to post it.

You do write a lot but dont say much....

 

You could have explained yourself a little better,

but it seems like you do like your writing....have at it...

 

" I would have been unable to understand how to serve the community since the men seemed fairly content with things as they are even amidst food security, malaria, sexual health issues, and sanitation and hygiene. "

 

Ok lets try again...why were the "men"  content according to you....

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by windwalker