What to do about compassion?

[cold]

46 minutes ago, TheCLounge said:

When you truly wish to help someone you would also realize when you are not in the position to do so..

 

Either because of inner conflict or just not being able to have the right mindset to extend yourself..

 

my bold above

 

I know what I don't know. 

I'm not a social worked a shrink nor a counselor.

I don't what to do but I damn sure know what not to do!

 

I live & work near not at a shelter for women & children and generally men are not welcome there.

Exceptions are made from time to time.

I have seen the affect fire water has on people to many times.

One fella was a real lamb up until he had a few under his belt. Then all hell would ensue.

He would get kicked out of the café at the shelter for being under the influence. The cops would be called and he would high tail it over to the farm. No sirens but six or eight police cars with lights on was enough notice.

 

Less than six was really risky eight was great... they would surround him and quickly close in so he couldn't throw but a punch or two.

I  was always impressed with the care and caution shown him by the local police. And often the case were a bit more gentle, less yelling for example when he engaged primarily with a female peace officer. They took him in until he sobered up. He only had a third grade education and worked on farms his entire life...

[doc benway]

On 11/15/2017 at 0:22 AM, Lost in Translation said:

We all know people who are suffering. Many of us may also be suffering.

 

We cultivate compassion towards others, and towards ourselves. This is good. This is excellent. But what does that actually mean? For example, you know people who are suffering. You feel compassion towards them. What's next? Do you reach out to help? If so, how can you help without enabling? How do you know that your actions are truly compassionate? It may be that the best compassion is to do nothing.

 

Ideas?

 

 Some ideas about compassion mostly related to personal practice and cultivation. 

 

I bolded your last comment as I think it is often a good idea to start there.

 

In Tibetan Buddhism, we're taught to liberate ourselves before we are able to help others.

Until we have a direct realization of emptiness, we are deluded.

Any actions arising from delusion tend to perpetuate fundamental ignorance.

As you suggest, despite our best intentions, we can make things worse.

 

Satirical wisdom from one of my favorite authors, a dead old junky...

 

 

 

Our efforts to "help" are often rooted in selfishness. 

Anthony Demello talks about this.

He describes two types of charity, both of which are fundamentally selfish, but I'll adapt that to compassion:

1. Giving ourselves the pleasure of pleasing (helping) others

2. Pleasing (helping) others to avoid feeling bad about ourselves.

Both are selfish motivations that come from pain and ignorance rather than true compassion.

It doesn't mean that we shouldn't care for and help others, rather it's intended to shine light on our fundamental selfishness.

It's a reminder not to think too highly of ourselves simply because we practice compassion. 

 

The most direct path to true compassion, IMO, is to let the self (the thinker, the inner narrator, the doer) rest and to simply remain open and present to the situation. Listen rather than speak, let the inner voice rest rather than dictate, remain open to all possibilities rather than focusing on conclusions and solutions, offer my attention and presence rather than what I think are the right answers. So often, our attempts to help are a reflection of our own conditioning and bias rather than what the other person really needs. 

 

The one who assumes the mantle of self is precisely what prevents the direct realization of true compassion. 

When that one finally gets out of the way, the result is that any action needed in the moment will naturally manifest and such spontaneous activity will be precisely what is needed. 

in Tibetan Buddhism this is referred to as enlightened activity. 

In Daoism it is referred to as Wu Wei - non-doing or, as I like to think of it, non-interference.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oak]

49 minutes ago, steve said:

 

In Daoism it is referred to as Wu Wei - non-doing or, as I like to think of it, non-interference.

 

 

Even so and as the DDJ teaches the sage like the sky and the earth lives not for himself but for others.

I understand your point Steve and this thread is being a good exercise in making us think deeply about these things. I've learned over the years that spiritual capacities and teachings can also be used to harm others so, regarding this matter when I hear "non-doing" I think that most people will use the term as an excuse not to  do what is right which in my point of view is much more harmful than acting for selfish reasons.

 

The following images are very shocking but shouldn't we all take a look at them and think... think deeply?

 

 

 

 

[Lost in Translation]

2 hours ago, cold said:

I generally pay pretty good $15.00 an hour ($120.00 a day) its hard work out in the weather yet pan handlers may get twice that and don't have to do much...

I will offer work or share a meal, too often I see them buying booze when they get cash.

 

That's the rub. If you choose to give then you choose to give. Once an object is given it is, by its very definition, no longer yours. You have relinquished control. It's a tough thing. I had an uncle who was homeless, in and out of prison, and hooked on heroin for twenty years. He had all kinds of games he would play. In the end I had to decide to either give, and let that be it, or deny - and also let that be it. 

[ljazztrumpet]

7 minutes ago, oak said:

I've learned over the years that spiritual capacities and teachings can also be used to harm others so, regarding this matter when I hear "non-doing" I think that most people will use the term as an excuse not to  do what is right which in my point of view is much more harmful than acting for selfish reasons.

 

 

 

This is why, nowadays, I only put stock in spiritual teachings that produce actual practical, real-world results - such as physical and emotional healings of conditions that conventional medicine is unable to cure. To me, this is 'proof' that a teaching is a positive force in the world and that it is something I want to embrace.

[doc benway]

17 minutes ago, oak said:

I've learned over the years that spiritual capacities and teachings can also be used to harm others so, regarding this matter when I hear "non-doing" I think that most people will use the term as an excuse not to  do what is right which in my point of view is much more harmful than acting for selfish reasons.

 

Very true. 

In general, people tend to adopt ideas which reinforce their views rather than open themselves to ideas which modify their views. The latter is a characteristic of someone genuinely interested in growth and seems to be the exception rather than the rule. 

 

Wu wei is probably one of the most misunderstood concepts in Daoism. 

In a similar vein, Dzogchen is a very misunderstood concept in Buddhism. 

Both point to an experiential understanding of non-duality. 

Absent that, they are easy to misinterpret and exploit.

[cold]

22 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Yes, it is universal, but I believe it is intensely personal.   Here's a few illustrations:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think the above are examples of selfishness.

 

Nor do I think that the police mans bear hug of the bomber was done selfishly.

 

Doing thru being who and what they are ...

 

25 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

That's the rub. If you choose to give then you choose to give. Once an object is given it is, by its very definition, no longer yours. You have relinquished control. It's a tough thing. I had an uncle who was homeless, in and out of prison, and hooked on heroin for twenty years. He had all kinds of games he would play. In the end I had to decide to either give, and let that be it, or deny - and also let that be it. 

 

Yup to do or not to do that remains the question.

Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome ... well I choose not to do that. Observe act.

[doc benway]

17 minutes ago, ljazztrumpet said:

This is why, nowadays, I only put stock in spiritual teachings that produce actual practical, real-world results - such as physical and emotional healings of conditions that conventional medicine is unable to cure. To me, this is 'proof' that a teaching is a positive force in the world and that it is something I want to embrace.

 

I'm with you. Even in cases where conventional medicine can cure physical manifestations of illness or injury, the word healing for me brings up addressing illness and injury from a far more comprehensive perspective. Many people suffer from emotional and psychological aspects of illness and injury long after the physical effects are either gone or at least stabilized. 

[ljazztrumpet]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

I'm with you. Even in cases where conventional medicine can cure physical manifestations of illness or injury, the word healing for me brings up addressing illness and injury from a far more comprehensive perspective. Many people suffer from emotional and psychological aspects of illness and injury long after the physical effects are either gone or at least stabilized. 

Exactly steve, very well put..thanks for writing this out! 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, cold said:

 

I don't think the above are examples of selfishness.

 

 

 

Absolutely not.  As I said earlier, compassion is intensely personal -- and it is not, unlike empathy, a fleeting sentiment, not "milk of human kindness light, low fat, homogenized," nor an abstract concept that you learn from books or gurus.  It is a feeling and a doing that cause you to put your own life on the line, as the result of feeling and in the process of doing.  Skin in the game, man.  If you have none, you are not going to have compassion.  Skin in the game is not selfish -- it is the organ with which you can feel compassion, and without this organ, you can't.  You can only intellectualize the concept, not live it, if you are not personally in the thick of it. 

 

What gets you into the thick of it is who you are.  

 

I've encountered a lot more examples of compassion missing from the actual real-life world of abstract peddlers thereof than the other way around.  Alas.  Many, many of them go by some Platonic ideal of morality and trample whoever doesn't fit in underfoot without even noticing. 

 

Compassion can't be learned.  It's like money in the bank.  If there is, there is.  If there isn't, there isn't.  

 

Empathy can't be learned either, by the way.  Has to do with brain defects, a deficiency of mirror neurons that help us get an idea of what the other person feels.  I believe they must be developmental, those defects.  The brain of a person raised by non-empathetic folks may or may not form properly to have access to this ability.  Some still manage to develop it, many don't.  

 

Compassion, however, is way more complex and at the same time way more simple.  It hits you like a ton of bricks but then causes you to act rather than just sit back and feel or analyze or meditate or what have you.  What's there to analyze when a ton of bricks hits you?..  Or if it never does -- what do you know about it?..  I mean the generic you, of course.  

[oak]

19 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

  It is a feeling and a doing that cause you to put your own life on the line, as the result of feeling and in the process of doing.

 

Having had someone who took serious risks to save your life is something that deeply changes you. Just hope that this is the general rule and true. 

 

...and thanks Taomeow.

[cold]

20 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Absolutely not.  As I said earlier, compassion is intensely personal -- and it is not, unlike empathy, a fleeting sentiment, not "milk of human kindness light, low fat, homogenized," nor an abstract concept that you learn from books or gurus.  It is a feeling and a doing that cause you to put your own life on the line, as the result of feeling and in the process of doing.  Skin in the game, man.  If you have none, you are not going to have compassion.  Skin in the game is not selfish -- it is the organ with which you can feel compassion, and without this organ, you can't.  You can only intellectualize the concept, not live it, if you are not personally in the thick of it. 

 

What gets you into the thick of it is who you are.  

 

I've encountered a lot more examples of compassion missing from the actual real-life world of abstract peddlers thereof than the other way around.  Alas.  Many, many of them go by some Platonic ideal of morality and trample whoever doesn't fit in underfoot without even noticing. 

 

Compassion can't be learned.  It's like money in the bank.  If there is, there is.  If there isn't, there isn't.  

 

Empathy can't be learned either, by the way.  Has to do with brain defects, a deficiency of mirror neurons that help us get an idea of what the other person feels.  I believe they must be developmental, those defects.  The brain of a person raised by non-empathetic folks may or may not form properly to have access to this ability.  Some still manage to develop it, many don't.  

 

Compassion, however, is way more complex and at the same time way more simple.  It hits you like a ton of bricks but then causes you to act rather than just sit back and feel or analyze or meditate or what have you.  What's there to analyze when a ton of bricks hits you?..  Or if it never does -- what do you know about it?..  I mean the generic you, of course.  

 

Distilling the above for the real outstanding gems :

 

Compassion can"t be learned as it is intensely personal.

What gets you into the thick of it, is who you are.

Compassion hits you like a ton of bricks.

It is both a feeling and a doing because one has skin in the game, man.

Skin in the game is not selfish.

You can only intellectualize the concept, not live it, if you are not personally in the thick of it.

 

And I would add if you have lived it, you know it when you see it, this compassion thing, this skin in the game, in others. 

[Fa Xin]

In my experience, compassion happens on its own as a result of being aware of your own condition.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Fa Xin

[TheCLounge]

3 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

In my experience, compassion happens on its own as a result of being aware of your own condition.

YES!!!!!!

 

I believe these things aren't done out of obligation. They just happen as we experience things internally

[cold]

11 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

In my experience, compassion happens on its own as a result of being aware of your own condition.

 

Care to share examples of compassion you have experience with?

Tia

 

9 minutes ago, TheCLounge said:

YES!!!!!!

 

I believe these things aren't done out of obligation. They just happen as we experience things internally

 

Obligation?

One doesn't need an obligation, or the need for no stinking badges either.

That is either before or after one acts  in compassion.

 

Care to share these things that happen as experience internally ?

Tia

[TheCLounge]

I never said you're obligated to do anything 

[ljazztrumpet]

23 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

In my experience, compassion happens on its own as a result of being aware of your own condition.

At first, I think there has to be a desire to be aware of your own condition - and, in working on that awareness, things like compassion arising on its own are bound to happen at some point.

[Lost in Translation]

7 minutes ago, ljazztrumpet said:

 

33 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

In my experience, compassion happens on its own as a result of being aware of your own condition.

At first, I think there has to be a desire to be aware of your own condition - and, in working on that awareness, things like compassion arising on its own are bound to happen at some point.

 

This is big. You guys are onto something here.

 

When I read the above, this is my take away:

 

Desire = Choice. One must choose to be aware of one's own condition (living, sentient, suffering being) and one must also choose to extend that awareness to others (also living, also sentient, also suffering beings) before one can consciously choose and embody compassion.

 

 

[C T]

it is easier to remove the veils and fetters that hide one's compassionate heart than to act in the limited human understanding of what compassion is. Compassion is like the sun - the sun naturally emits warmth and light, it doesnt have to force itself to do so, nor does the question of whether the sun shines selectively or not even arise. It simply rests in its own nature, effortlessly. What is the nature of a true human being? 

[Lost in Translation]

3 minutes ago, C T said:

 

it is easier to remove the veils and fetters that hide one's compassionate heart than to act in the limited human understanding of what compassion is.

 

 

I would think it the other way around. Acting with limited human understanding is easy. Removing veils and fetters take work. Am I misunderstanding you?

Edited November 19, 2017 by Lost in Translation
spelling

[ljazztrumpet]

4 minutes ago, C T said:

it is easier to remove the veils and fetters that hide one's compassionate heart than to act in the limited human understanding of what compassion is. Compassion is like the sun - the sun naturally emits warmth and light, it doesnt have to force itself to do so, nor does the question of whether the sun shines selectively or not even arise. It simply rests in its own nature, effortlessly. What is the nature of a true human being? 

Besides all the nondual concepts I'm sure most of us are familiar with, I would like to think the true nature of a human being is love - When the 'blocks'/fear are removed, then those behaviors that the few great spiritual healers talk about can shine through: love, compassion, humility, benevolence, service, kindness, etc. 

[Lost in Translation]

2 minutes ago, ljazztrumpet said:

Besides all the nondual concepts I'm sure most of us are familiar with, I would like to think the true nature of a human being is love - When the 'blocks'/fear are removed, then those behaviors that the few great spiritual healers talk about can shine through: love, compassion, humility, benevolence, service, kindness, etc. 

 

I sincerely want you to be right. 

[ljazztrumpet]

1 minute ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I would think it the other way around. Acting with limited human understanding is easy. Removing veils and fetters take work. Am I misunderstanding you?

My own experience is that there comes a point in your life (in whatever lifetime) where you have to remove veils and fetters.. You really have no choice. People might say, 'Well, you could just keep going on and suffering.' but I don't believe it is any human's desire to suffer, so that's not much of a choice. 

 

Speaking for myself and a couple of other people I've talked to about this process, it seems there comes a point where one sees actually how difficult it is to remove the veils and fetters - and then you really don't want to anymore.. but it's too late..the suffering is more than ever if you try to avoid it. Life literally forces you into it..over the course of lifetimes I believe. Yeah, kind of really sucks..unless I get to the point where I can fully heal myself and show others how to do the same..and all suffering falls away..Maybe then I'll think it's worth it!

[ljazztrumpet]

2 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I sincerely want you to be right. 

I'll keep you posted dude!

[TheCLounge]

The more you "try" to be good, the more you are making it known that you aren't good..

 

To be compassionate is to simply EXPERIENCE compassion..

 

You are nothing..you are essence. Nothing can define you

 

Acknowledge your true essence and that same essence will take care of everything for you. You will experience everything you need to experience.

 

Look at nature around you. A tree doesn't try to be a tree..it simply IS..

 

The more you "try"..the more you will fail

 

The fact that you acknowledge the ills of the world around you proves that you have seen compassion..