What to do about compassion?

[cold]

26 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Are you saying that compassion does not involve choice? As an emotion I can accept that, but as an action I can not. One must always choose how to act of out compassion, even if one chooses not to act at all.

 

Does a scorpion choose to bite?

Is emotion involved in its action (to bite) or inaction (not to bite) is it dna or culture?

I can assure you the choice was made long before stimuli was presented. And it wasn't based upon an emotion.

No choice in the matter its doing or not doing!

No thought no choice.

 

Hugging a bomber no thought no choice and an example of compassion in action

 

11 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Hi Tia,

 

sorry im not sure what you mean by examples of compassion?

 

thanks

FX

22 minutes ago, C T said:

some will say compassion is a type of action resulting from a feeling of deep empathy. 

this is ok - after all, its difficult to relate to concepts that one is not familiar with,

but i think compassion extends far beyond the limits of human understanding. 

To me, it is the very nature of existence itself.

Look around... its starkly evident - even weeds and grass have its nature. 

 

The assumption that one can 'do' compassion is quite a bold one, almost arrogant even;

In actuality, i think its the other way round. 

Compassion that arises without motive, without self-concern, is instinctual.

Just like a snail that withdraws into its shell when agitated, or you pulling a runaway child who stumbles onto a busy street. 

Its a reflex, but humans have a tendency to train themselves out of that reflexiveness. 

Some call this 'ignorance'. 

On some fundamental level, spiritual cultivation is a kind of process of getting familiar with it again. 

To reconnect with one's heart. Cliched, but hey, thats what it comes down to. 

 

I wont be one to say compassion results from empathy cause it doesn't and its not ok to be ignorant.

This ignorance leads to suffering.

Totally agree that compassion arises without motive, but I would argue that it is not instinctual.

Other wise why would a mother drown her children?

Rather its is innate.

Found in some and not in others.

Just as sadism is.

[oak]

15 minutes ago, ljazztrumpet said:

This is where I feel it really matters.. All of this stuff that we are discussing.. How does it effect our practical lives? How can we use it for benefit? 

 

Touché 

[C T]

5 minutes ago, cold said:

 

Does a scorpion choose to bite?

Is emotion involved in its action (to bite) or inaction (not to bite) is it dna or culture?

I can assure you the choice was made long before stimuli was presented. And it wasn't based upon an emotion.

No choice in the matter its doing or not doing!

No thought no choice.

 

Hugging a bomber no thought no choice and an example of compassion in action

 

 

I wont be one to say compassion results from empathy cause it doesn't and its not ok to be ignorant.

This ignorance leads to suffering.

Totally agree that compassion arises without motive, but I would argue that it is not instinctual.

Other wise why would a mother drown her children?

Rather its is innate.

Found in some and not in others.

Just as sadism is.

Maybe some mothers have some traits that are not very different from a scorpion's. 

Humans have limitless means to evolve, after all. 

Live and learn until one gets it right, at some point. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by C T

[ljazztrumpet]

3 minutes ago, cold said:

 

Other wise why would a mother drown her children?

Rather its is innate.

Found in some and not in others.

Just as sadism is.

Just to address one part of what you said cold.. The mother could believe she's acting compassionately. That she brought beings into this world where people are being tortured and are undergoing all types of suffering and that she realized she made a mistake and wanted to take them out of all of that. Of course, for most all of us, drowning a person would be considered a very uncompassionate behavior. Would be quite different if she used a poison where they just fell asleep, etc. 

 

So it brings up the point: 'Who says what real compassion looks like? Who's qualified to make the decision?' In my experience it's those who render great service.. Like those who are able to effect healings in themselves or others..or are in some way greatly able to alleviate other people's suffering. These are the people I personally listen to when I want to know about compassion and things of that nature.

[ljazztrumpet]

3 minutes ago, C T said:

Maybe some mothers have some traits that are not very different from a scorpion's. 

Humans have limitless means to evolve, after all. 

Live and learn until one gets it right, at some point. 

Yeah, exactly C T..This is right where I am 'weighing in' on this topic as well.

[doc benway]

21 hours ago, cold said:

The fellow who bear hugged the bomber didn't think.

He  didn't have a choice ...

He had an innate nature of compassion

 

If thinking comes into it, so does selfishness.

I mentioned Demello earlier, he speaks beautifully about this topic.

I believe everyone has that innate nature of compassion at their core.

Only for most of us, most of the time, it's hidden.

 

 

20 hours ago, cold said:

What's love have to do with it? With compassion?

Nothing!

 

There is a perspective from which love and compassion are very closely related, perhaps identical.

I'm not referring to romantic love, sensual love, sexual attraction, infatuation, obligation, or any of the more standard definitions of love that are conditional.

I'm referring more to the experience that all life and sentience is interconnected and interdependent. The feeling that if any other living creature is hurting, I literally feel that pain as my own. This unconditional love, Bodhicitta, is spontaneous innate compassion. It is like empathy but far more powerful and completely authentic. It is not based on fear or selfishness, although you could say it is a type of selfishness from an absolute perspective. 

[ljazztrumpet]

42 minutes ago, steve said:

I believe everyone has that innate nature of compassion at their core.

Only for most of us, most of the time, it's hidden.

 

I agree steve. I think it's fear that blocks it and, as we get rid of 'fear blocks', the compassionate nature 'shines through' more and more.

43 minutes ago, steve said:

There is a perspective from which love and compassion are very closely related, perhaps identical.

I'm not referring to romantic love, sensual love, sexual attraction, infatuation, obligation, or any of the more standard definitions of love that are conditional.

I'm referring more to the experience that all life and sentience is interconnected and interdependent. The feeling that if any other living creature is hurting, I literally feel that pain as my own. This unconditional love, Bodhicitta, is spontaneous innate compassion. It is like empathy but far more powerful and completely authentic. It is not based on fear or selfishness, although you could say it is a type of selfishness from an absolute perspective. 

Really well put steve.. Thanks for writing this out. This is how I currently feel about it too. All the best, Lex

[Fa Xin]

On 11/19/2017 at 3:04 PM, Lost in Translation said:

 

This is big. You guys are onto something here.

 

When I read the above, this is my take away:

 

Desire = Choice. One must choose to be aware of one's own condition (living, sentient, suffering being) and one must also choose to extend that awareness to others (also living, also sentient, also suffering beings) before one can consciously choose and embody compassion.

 

 

Sounds about right to me 😊

 

I think at first, choosing to open your heart and trying to be empathetic is an important step in opening the heart. I’ve done many “mani” mantras and loving kindness meditations over the years. I know they weren’t in vein. 

 

At some point the “trying” fell away, and compassion was just there on its own. It’s alot different than the empathy I felt when doing the above meditations, too. I can’t really explain it well. It’s more an understanding of the nature of suffering (or being) that gives compassion, rather than ME trying to alleviate suffering. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Fa Xin

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Sounds about right to me 😊

 

I think at first, choosing to open your heart and trying to be empathetic is an important step in opening the heart. I’ve done many “mani” mantras and loving kindness meditations over the years. I know they weren’t in vein. 

 

At some point the “trying” fell away, and compassion was just there on its own. It’s alot different than the empathy I felt when doing the above meditations, too. I can’t really explain it well. It’s more an understanding of the nature of suffering (or being) that gives compassion, rather than ME trying to alleviate suffering. 

Is that tied to an inherent realization of the underlying "oneness" of all being...how can you not feel love and compassion towards your own Self?

 

I find that when we look with the rational-mind and intellect, we see separation. When we look from the heart-mind, we don't find any separation. You and I are not separate or different. This feeling of non-separation is love to me. This is compassion, unconditioned. 

[Fa Xin]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

Is that tied to an inherent realization of the underlying "oneness" of all being...how can you not feel love and compassion towards your own Self?

 

I find that when we look with the rational-mind and intellect, we see separation. When we look from the heart-mind, we don't find any separation. You and I are not separate or different. This feeling of non-separation is love to me. This is compassion, unconditioned. 

Nicely put. Yes this is accurate for me. 

[ljazztrumpet]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Is that tied to an inherent realization of the underlying "oneness" of all being...how can you not feel love and compassion towards your own Self?

 

That’s what I have thought for a long time as well. The more I can have that experience of non-separation, the more compassion would naturally arise. I am skeptical to whether anyone ‘lives in’ this awareness 100%, although many like to claim this - especially if they make their living giving satsangs!

1 hour ago, dwai said:

I find that when we look with the rational-mind and intellect, we see separation. When we look from the heart-mind, we don't find any separation. You and I are not separate or different. This feeling of non-separation is love to me. This is compassion, unconditioned. 

Yeah man, really well put - This is one of the reasons I do my current practice of trying to send love out to everyone as much as possible. I definitely consider this to be a 'heart-mind' practice. Having studied many intellectual teachings, as well as carrying out a number of different types of meditation, this is giving me better, real-world, practical results than anything else I have tried.

[Lost in Translation]

12 minutes ago, ljazztrumpet said:

I do my current practice of trying to send love out to everyone as much as possible

 

Kudos to you! That's too hard-core for me. I find it work enough to maintain energy neutrality.

[ljazztrumpet]

5 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Kudos to you! That's too hard-core for me. I find it work enough to maintain energy neutrality.

Well thanks LIT but, to be perfectly honest, I feel forced by Life to do this. It is, 'Either do this or suffer.' To me, that's not much of a choice..no humans want to suffer! But I do enjoy the practice too because of the way it makes me feel and the benefits I am starting to receive in my practical life. I started trying this practice over 10 years ago after I first read 'Love Can Open Prison Doors' by Starr Daily.. It's only been in the last several months, from working with a lady who has a high love consciousness and was able to heal herself and others, that I am able to do it more consistently. We did some distance healing sessions and there was some type of 'consciousness/energy transfer' that went on that I can't really currently explain. 

[Fa Xin]

6 minutes ago, ljazztrumpet said:

Well thanks LIT but, to be perfectly honest, I feel forced by Life to do this. It is, 'Either do this or suffer.' To me, that's not much of a choice..no humans want to suffer! But I do enjoy the practice too because of the way it makes me feel and the benefits I am starting to receive in my practical life. I started trying this practice over 10 years ago after I first read 'Love Can Open Prison Doors' by Starr Daily.. It's only been in the last several months, from working with a lady who has a high love consciousness and was able to heal herself and others, that I am able to do it more consistently. We did some distance healing sessions and there was some type of 'consciousness/energy transfer' that went on that I can't really currently explain. 

Keep it up - if it makes you feel good and your reaping benefits - tharts all that really matters. 🙏

[Lost in Translation]

@ljazztrumpet I am impressed. For years I have worked for neutrality. I don't want to feel drained by others, nor do I want to feel energized by others. By the same token I neither want to drain or energize others in return. The ideal state ( to me) is quiet, peaceful togetherness, i.e. sit in the same room, enjoy a talk, read a book, and no expectations beyond that. I suppose I am this way having grown up with psychic vampires in my immediate family.

[ljazztrumpet]

1 minute ago, Lost in Translation said:

@ljazztrumpet I am impressed. For years I have worked for neutrality. I don't want to feel drained by others, nor do I want to feel energized by others. By the same token I neither want to drain or energize others in return. The ideal state ( to me) is quiet, peaceful togetherness, i.e. sit in the same room, enjoy a talk, read a book, and no expectations beyond that. I suppose I am this way having grown up with psychic vampires in my immediate family.

Thanks for sharing that LIT - I would assume that, if you are cultivating a state of quiet, peaceful togetherness, when you do interact with others, you probably have positive, helpful interactions in general. 

 

I was saying I feel Life has forced me into this love practice. Another way I think of it is that practicing this 'love sending' is taking away the emotional suffering that was going on before. In the past, I have also tried to cultivate a state of peaceful togetherness through meditation. For some reason, this never worked for me - even after years of dedicated practice. I don't know why. For many people, it seems to work wonderfully. But I am just really grateful to have found something that helps me and that really resonates with me in my whole being. A big part of this resonance is because I'm very interested in spiritual healing, and the real 'masters of spiritual healing' always talk about cultivating this love. So that's exciting to me

[doc benway]

3 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

@ljazztrumpet I am impressed. For years I have worked for neutrality. I don't want to feel drained by others, nor do I want to feel energized by others. By the same token I neither want to drain or energize others in return. The ideal state ( to me) is quiet, peaceful togetherness, i.e. sit in the same room, enjoy a talk, read a book, and no expectations beyond that. I suppose I am this way having grown up with psychic vampires in my immediate family.

 

It's an interesting phenomenon but it is often the case that when you freely give, you do not feel drained.

It's more the resistance that is draining, not the sincere generosity that Lex describes.

 

If we are doing something that we enjoy or feel good about, we can put in endless hours and yet feel energized and ready to keep going. To the contrary, when we are doing something we don't feel good about, we can feel physically and mentally exhausted before we even start!

[ljazztrumpet]

Just now, steve said:

 

It's an interesting phenomenon but it is often the case that when you freely give, you do not feel drained.

It's more the resistance that is draining, not the sincere generosity that Lex describes.

 

If we are doing something that we enjoy or feel good about, we can put in endless hours and yet feel energized and ready to keep going. To the contrary, when we are doing something we don't feel good about, we can feel physically and mentally exhausted before we even start!

Absolutely my experience - and I've talked with a number of people who are very high in love consciousness and have watched them do some pretty amazing things - They seem to have endless energy..going for very long periods without sleep or food. One of these people is a medical doctor who is also very interested in spiritual healing and freely gives his time speaking about it all over the world. I seem to attract people into my life who are at a very high level of love consciousness and that further inspires me to see what is possible.

 

----------------------------------------

From George Ritchie's book 'Return From Tomorrow' - Wild Bill 

As you'll see, "Wild Bill" was a truly unforgettable person, a miracle worker par excellence, and by all appearances a powerful example of what the Course passage above is talking about. Here is Ritchie's account of him:

He was one of the inmates of the concentration camp, but obviously he had not been there long; his posture was erect, his eyes bright, his energy indefatigable. Since he was fluent in English, French, German and Russian, as well as Polish, he became a kind of unofficial camp translator.

 

We came to him with all sorts of problems; the paperwork alone was staggering in attempting to relocate people whose families, even whole hometowns, might have disappeared. But though Wild Bill worked fifteen and sixteen hours a day, he showed no signs of weariness. While the rest of us were drooping with fatigue, he seemed to gain strength. "We have time for this old fellow," he would say. "He's been waiting to see us all day." His compassion for his fellow prisoners glowed on his face, and it was to this glow that I came when my own spirits were low.

 

So I was astonished to learn, when Wild Bill's own papers came before us one day, that he had been in Wuppertal since 1939! For six years he had lived on the same starvation diet, slept in the same airless and disease-ridden barracks as everyone else, but without the least physical or mental deterioration.

 

Perhaps even more amazing, every group in the camp looked on him as a friend. He was the one to whom quarrels between inmates were brought for arbitration. Only after I had been at Wuppertal a number of weeks did I realize what a rarity this was in a compound where the different nationalities of prisoners hated each other almost as much as they did the Germans.

As for the Germans, feelings against them ran so high that in some of the camps liberated earlier, former prisoners had seized guns, run into the nearest village and simply shot the first Germans they saw. Part of our instructions were to prevent this kind of thing and again Wild Bill was our greatest asset, reasoning with the different groups, counseling forgiveness.

"It's not easy for some of them to forgive," I commented to him one day as we sat over mugs of tea in the proceeding center. "So many of them have lost members of their families."

 

Wild Bill leaned back on the upright chair and sipped at his drink. "We lived in the Jewish section of Warsaw," he began slowly, the first words I had heard him speak about himself. "My wife, our two daughters, and our three little boys. When the Germans reached our street they lined everyone against a wall and opened up with machine guns. I begged to be allowed to die with my family, but because I spoke German they put me in a work group."

 

He paused, perhaps seeing again his wife and children. "I had to decide right then," he continued, "whether to let myself hate the soldiers who had done this. It was an easy decision, really. I was a lawyer. In my practice I had seen too often what hate could do to people's minds and bodies. Hate had just killed the six people who mattered most to me in the world. I decided then that I would spend the rest of my life, whether it was a few days or many years, loving every person I came in contact with."

Loving every person…this was the power that had kept a man well in the face of every privation. (George Ritchie, Return from Tomorrow, 129-132)

[doc benway]

3 minutes ago, ljazztrumpet said:

One of these people is a medical doctor who is also very interested in spiritual healing and freely gives his time speaking about it all over the world.

 

Would you mind sharing that person's name with me, either here or through private message?

Thanks!

[ljazztrumpet]

3 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Would you mind sharing that person's name with me, either here or through private message?

Thanks!

Dr. Mattias Kamp - He was associated with 'The Bruno Groening Circle of Friends' for a number of years, as was I. He would come over from Germany and I would drive a group of us up and down the East Coast of the USA where he would give free lectures on spiritual healing.. Really wonderful fellow with a very high love consciousness that is palpable. He wrote 'Revolution in Medicine' which is a book about spiritual healing and the teachings of Bruno Groening: http://www.gh-verlag.de/en/Books-english/Bruno-Groening-A-Revolution-in-Medicine.html

Edited November 20, 2017 by ljazztrumpet
Punctuation

[ljazztrumpet]

Also Dr. Franz Gringinger - another wonderful cat and MD who would come over, and I think he still does.

 

Also Dr. Michele Galante who is over in NJ and was healed of a serious heart ailment spontaneously: http://okinhealth.com/articles/the-key-to-tomorrows-health-bruno-groening 

[C T]

good article on the benefits of training the mind using compassion as a foundational approach

 

https://info-buddhism.com/Empathy-Compassion-Neuroscience-Ricard-Altruism.html

[ljazztrumpet]

11 minutes ago, C T said:

good article on the benefits of training the mind using compassion as a foundational approach

 

https://info-buddhism.com/Empathy-Compassion-Neuroscience-Ricard-Altruism.html

WOW - C T thanks so much for sending this! It really explains a lot to me. I think 'cold' was referring to the difference between empathy and compassion earlier in this thread. This makes SO much sense to me. I have a very good friend who is a medical intuitive and extremely empathic. I have seen her pick up all sorts of stuff from people - even to where she's 'dry heaving' or throwing up from taking on negativity of others. I can't wait till she reads this article as I think it will really help her. 

 

I think I was also strongly empathic as a child and I learned to do various things to 'numb' it as I got older - I felt I had to or I don't think I'd be here today. And this also explains to me why the love practice is so helpful to me. I have done formal metta and tonglen in the past, as that article refers to some metta concepts, but I think I had a sense of 'separation' between the formal practice and going out into the world living my daily life. Just keeping it super simple for myself and thinking about sending out love to whatever comes to my mind, makes it the easiest for me to try to use every conscious moment as a practice. 

 

Thanks again C T - You're one of the good ones! 

[doc benway]

Thanks Lex, very good info!