Buddhism is ‘liberation through Yin’, and turns you into a ghost forever. Agree or disagree?

[Phoenix3]

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Lui Dongbin asked: Who is a ghost immortal?

 

Zhongli Quan answered: This is the lowest of the five immortals. They become free among yin (i.e. after death) ... last name is not recorded into the records to the world of ghosts, the name is not recorded in the worlds of the immortals. Although he is not included in samsara, but can’t return to the realms of the immortals, he will never have place where he can come back, he just stops his rebirths.

 

Lui Dongbin asked: This is a ghost immortal. What is his art, what are the methods used to achieve this?

 

Zhongli Quan answered: At the beginning people who try to perfect themselves do not understand the Great Tao and seek quick result. Their body is like a dried tree, the heart is like cold ashes. They keep inside the spirit and the mind and do not disperse the intention. In the immobility the spirit of Yin goes out of the body, this is a ghost, It has nothing to do with pure yang of immortals. Because of his single intention and lack of dispersing of yin soul this is called a ghost immortal. Although people say "immortal", but in fact it is a ghost

 

http://www.all-dao.com/ghost-immortal.html

 

Quote

1. Phantom-immortal or ghost-immortal - Gui Xian ( 鬼仙 )
Gui Xian. Literally - the immortal among devils or the immortal devil. It was believed that this achievement is a characteristic of shamanic practices, the late Chan Buddhism, the pseudo-Taoism, different meditations. Withdrawal of Yin spirit in a state of no breath and palpitation. The practitioner remains mortal, despite the practice of spirit withdrawal and possible capabilities. Moreover, he may not be reborn after his death and stay a ghost forever. This was not practiced in Taoism, it was forbidden (meaning the serious study, not just jingzuo).

 

http://www.all-dao.com/immortality-achievements.html

 

I don’t know why it just says late Chan Buddhism, when it seems most traditions of Buddhism and Hinduism seem to aim to be liberated in this manner - stilling the mind and breath until total stillness.

[Cheshire Cat]

I've never seen an immortal. Not even a single one.

 

 

To categorize them according to various degrees of immortality sounds very much like collecting Pokémon cards and determine which one is the strongest ...

Edited November 20, 2017 by Cheshire Cat
typo

[rainbowvein]

5 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

I've never seen an immortal. Not even a single one.

 

How would you recognize a xian if s/he crossed your path?  

[oak]

15 minutes ago, rainbowvein said:

 

How would you recognize a xian if s/he crossed your path?  

 

Could be a famous one. Once I think I've bumped into one and to this day regret not having stoped him for an autograph  it would be the confirmation 

[Aetherous]

The quotes are speaking of where a person can astral travel, basically...their spirit and body are, or can be, disconnected.

That doesn't have to do with Buddhist liberation at all, which is something amazing.

[MIchael80]

LIberation has nothing to do with xing and ming or anything......it is beyond words, feelings and all energies (even the most subtle or highest ones).

 

[Apech]

I am no expert in this but it seems to me this is a critique of certain form of Ch'an meditation which neglects ming for xing.  It is not true for all schools of Ch'an (Zen) or Buddhism as a whole.  In China for periods Buddhism and Daoism were 'rivals' even though each adopted elements of the other and this needs to be bourn in mind.

 

 

[doc benway]

15 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

http://www.all-dao.com/ghost-immortal.html

 

 

http://www.all-dao.com/immortality-achievements.html

 

I don’t know why it just says late Chan Buddhism, when it seems most traditions of Buddhism and Hinduism seem to aim to be liberated in this manner - stilling the mind and breath until total stillness.

 

This is simply a misunderstanding of Chan meditation, as well as that of other Buddhist and Hindu traditions.

 

One does not still "the mind and breath until total stillness." For the beginner yes, this is the instruction - it is a foundational exercise, not the ultimate objective. As the personal, discursive mind stills, one discovers a much deeper, much richer sense of self. As the discursive mind becomes less predominant and controlling, as we are able to allow it to rest and manifest the larger sense of self, then it is possible to allow the discursive thoughts and stories to arise and they are no longer a distraction, instead they become an ornament. Finally, we can bring this larger sense of self into our daily lives and live without distraction, without interfering with the natural flow of the larger "being." This is Wu Wei. This is resting in the nature of mind.

 

So much criticism between this religion and that method is nothing more than lack of understanding.

[EmeraldHead]

Brahmacharya in a healthy environment can lead to MoPai like results. I think its wrong to say buddhists and hinduists cultivate low level methods. 

 

I may be lacking knowledge; from what I know hinduists are overcrazed with samatha style mental development. Even from the beginning of sadhana. 

[Cheshire Cat]

16 hours ago, rainbowvein said:

 

How would you recognize a xian if s/he crossed your path?  

 

I ask for his facebook.

[Mudfoot]

Doesn’t the full, Original quote also criticise some daoist practices? 

 

So it is not daoist against buddhist, it is Nei Dan against everybody else (except tantric traditions, possibly). 

[Maddie]

I'm going to answer the question that the title of this post raises. The ghost realm is with in Samsara and therefore impermanent and therefore not ultimate liberation which is Nirvana. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by dmattwads
Grammar

[silent thunder]

In this moment of life, all isms aside... to me it is not about any of this, schools, thoughts, practices; it's about present/awake or ignorant/asleep. 

 

And in spite of the language that prompts me to phrase it that way, those word/symbols are not separate things but flowing conditions of the continuum which manifests resides and returns to awareness.  Which is all there ever is...

 

So in the end, awake, asleep, ignorant, enlightened... awareness is what is, all that is and you are it now, just as you are...

 

whether we are aware of that or not and we are never separate from it.

 

just my take on it at this moment, these sweeping statements represent no authority other than my carpenter's opinion.

Edited November 22, 2017 by silent thunder
reworded a sentence

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[doc benway]

On 11/21/2017 at 9:38 PM, Wells said:

 

"...the cultivation of prajna (wisdom) which for Buddhists means the abstract concept of "the correct view" ..."

 

I think it's worthwhile to point out that the correct view is not an abstract concept for those who are practicing with proper guidance. The correct view is, in fact, the absence of concepts and abstraction. Cultivation of the view is resting in the view, there's nothing more than that. It is certainly possible to conceptualize the view, in fact that is probably the number one obstacle and we all do it to some degree, but that is not the view. 

 

 

[doc benway]

On 11/21/2017 at 9:34 PM, silent thunder said:

In this moment of life, all isms aside... to me it is not about any of this, schools, thoughts, practices; it's about present/awake or ignorant/asleep. 

 

And in spite of the language that prompts me to phrase it that way, those word/symbols are not separate things but flowing conditions of the continuum which manifests resides and returns to awareness.  Which is all there ever is...

 

So in the end, awake, asleep, ignorant, enlightened... awareness is what is, all that is and you are it now, just as you are...

 

whether we are aware of that or not and we are never separate from it.

 

just my take on it at this moment, these sweeping statements represent no authority other than my carpenter's opinion.

 

There have been other carpenters with great insight...

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Mudfoot]

58 minutes ago, Wells said:

 

I agree in so far that there is no more necessary than cultivating "the correct view" (or "the natural state of mind"). But considering that those few who are able to realize and stay in "the correct view" will achieve the sign of the dissolution of their physical body in one form or another, it's obviously a little bit more (or rather something else) than an intellectual concept like "the absence of concepts and abstraction".

Is correct view in it self enough to achieve the rainbow body? 

Buddhist Tantra say you should have a union of method and wisdom, which seems to mean a union of energy and Emptiness. Or is it only when you do this that you have correct view, and a person who only sought for Emptiness missed half of the deal? 

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Miroku]

My teachers taught me that without bodhicitta when you meditate on peaceful deity and die you become a deva enjoying for some time and then fall down. If you meditate without bodhicitta on a wrathful deity you become a harmful spirit after death. If you get stuck by focusing too much on emptiness (not sure how concretely however it is not the same as a chan meditation) you can spend a pretty long time in a formless realm, in some void. Maybe they meant that. However liberation is beyond samsara, beyond categories, beyond any spirit/ghost.

[Mudfoot]

So, if (!, I'm new on this subject) I get it right,  you energize upp your system ("method"), which leads to an experience of Emptiness ("wisdom"), and then you unify these experiences as to remove the duality between them? 

 

And since, if you dump the lingo and cut to the chase, this seems really close to Nei Dan, even a daoist would not have so much to critizise? 

[Miroku]

15 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

Is correct view in it self enough to achieve the rainbow body? 

No it is not AFAIK. Buddha realized the correct view and didnt achieve it just like many other great masters. What you need to do to achieve rainbow body or even great transfer just like Guru Padmasambhava is to stay in retreat and practice either very advanced tantric teachings from vajrayana or thogal or yangti methods of dzogchen. Then it is possible.

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells