Apech Posted January 12, 2018 Dear Bums, On Jonesboy's suggestion I have split off the last part of our discussion to a new thread in General called 'Merging and guruyoga' Hope everyone is ok with this 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Astral Monk Posted January 16, 2018 On 11/21/2017 at 2:03 AM, Cheshire Cat said: Pretty much everything. Buddha fully embraced the philosophical idea of "rebirth", which is -in nature- not different from believing that we're going to ride rainbow-unicorns in the sky. It's a matter of faith. From a theoretical explanation of the afterlife (rebirth) which has no empirical evidence, he derived a philosophical problem, the problem of never-ending suffering in samsara. To solve a philosophical problem (never-ending suffering) which is based on an unverified dogma (rebirth), he devised a monastic way of life based on ... abandon and suppress all of human's nature: don't have children, don't have a wife, don't work, etc. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Astral Monk Posted January 16, 2018 What was Buddha incorrect about? Nothing. He only spoke within strict confines of his realization and refused to answer any of the big philosophical questions ppl still wank on about. Its pretty clear desire IS a problem. And one any seeker will have to work past to get any progress. Doesnt matter Buddhist or Daoist. As for Buddhisms ultimate goal, you can see it as either a practical way to help ppl live balanced lives not subject to extremes and polarities of emotion, or as a special task to literally drain energy from the universe until all forms of processes dissolve. In Daoism there is the concept of 'not embroiling'. The sage moves awayfrom being caught in polarities of circumstance. How similar to the aim of ceasing duhkha? 8) 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ion Posted May 4, 2018 (edited) Quote Desire Free from desire you see the mystery. Full of desire you see the manifestations. [Tao Te Ching chapter 1] Lessen selfishness and restrain desires. [Tao Te Ching chapter 19] Without desire there is stillness, and the world settles by itself. [Tao Te Ching chapter 37] There is no greater crime than desire. [Tao Te Ching chapter 46] I have no desire to desire, and people become like the uncarved wood by themselves. [Tao Te Ching chapter 57] The sage desires no desire, does not value rare treasures, learns without learning, recovers what people have left behind. [Tao Te Ching chapter 64] Wealth and Greed Not valuing wealth prevents theft. [Tao Te Ching chapter 3] Keeping plenty of gold and jade in the palace makes no one able to defend it. [Tao Te Ching chapter 9] Displaying riches and titles with pride brings about one’s downfall. [Tao Te Ching chapter 9] Searching for precious goods leads astray. [Tao Te Ching chapter 12] Abandon cleverness, discard profit, and thieves and robbers will disappear. [Tao Te Ching chapter 19] Those who know when they have enough are rich. [Tao Te Ching chapter 33] Gain or loss, what is worse? [Tao Te Ching chapter 44] Greed is costly. Assembled fortunes are lost. [Tao Te Ching chapter 44] There is no greater misfortune than greed. [Tao Te Ching chapter 46] When the palace is magnificent, the fields are filled with weeds, and the granaries are empty. [Tao Te Ching chapter 53] Some have lavish garments, carry sharp swords, and feast on food and drink. They possess more than they can spend. This is called the vanity of robbers. It is certainly not the Way. [Tao Te Ching chapter 53] People starve. The rulers consume too much with their taxes. That is why people starve. [Tao Te Ching chapter 75] Heaven’s Way is like stretching a bow. The high is lowered and the low is raised. Excess is reduced and deficiency is replenished. Heaven’s Way reduces excess and replenishes deficiency. People’s Way is not so. They reduce the deficient and supply the excessive. [Tao Te Ching chapter 77] Who has excess and supplies the world? Only the one who follows the Way. [Tao Te Ching chapter 77] The virtuous carry out the settlement, but those without virtue pursue their claims. [Tao Te Ching chapter 79] The sage does not hoard. The more he does for others, the more he has. The more he thereby gives to others, the ever more he gets. [Tao Te Ching chapter 81] Also, if you read the DDJ, (ahem!), you'll uh notice that selflessness is talked about repeatedlythrough out the whole thing. The first chapter that is directly about it is chapter 7. After that there are many direct statements about it but the entire book is saturated in allusions to there being no self or living that way By abandoning desire. Here's a verse from chapter 13 that Basicly warns against desire and the self ideology "What do you mean by “Accept misfortune as the human condition”?Misfortune comes from having a body.Without a body, how could there be misfortune" this verse Basicly tells us that all is dukkha, life is dukkha and that dukkha originates from self, and from desire. so the religions of Taoism and Buddhism might differ on these subjects but the text are quite clear that Laozi and Buddha agreed on this. the difference in the practice of Buddhism there is Moe emphasis placed on this because of the the "three marks of existence " which is the Buddha's proclamation of "no-self" and in the 4 noble truths "all life is suffering; suffering is born of desire. btw when we eat because of desireit'sccalled gluttony, propper eating is not about fulfilling desire, and Laozi teaches against eating out of desire, and eating to fulfill the taste buds. looking forward to something is not desire. Eating is often done by non-doing. Edited May 4, 2018 by ion 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted May 10, 2018 It seems there may be some difference in the perceptions of what doing is and what selflessness is... though I am not sure on the buddhist view. So from yalls view, does ice 'do' ,and does the self exist apart from doing? My reading of taoism is that ice does not 'do' by melting, and the doing of wu wei, is not a manifestation of self doing but being the choiceful origin of that being manifest is, which would make charity 'doing' and not selfless. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ion Posted May 12, 2018 (edited) On 5/9/2018 at 6:54 PM, Stosh said: It seems there may be some difference in the perceptions of what doing is and what selflessness is... though I am not sure on the buddhist view. So from yalls view, does ice 'do' ,and does the self exist apart from doing? My reading of taoism is that ice does not 'do' by melting, and the doing of wu wei, is not a manifestation of self doing but being the choiceful origin of that being manifest is, which would make charity 'doing' and not selfless. According to my understanding of empiness/dependent origins ice is not doing by melting. What's more the solid does not become.e liquid. Also no self can do or ver does. No self has the power of causation. All action, form and phenomenon are dependent in origin and empty of self. Selfish actions would be actions whose becoming was conditioned by selfishness of some sort as one of the conditions of its becoming/existing. But there is no self that is free to be an agent of cause merely at will. Edited May 12, 2018 by ion 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted May 13, 2018 Solid ice doesnt become liquid when it melts? That I dont get, but if yall agree one can be considered not to be existing , being just part of the whole and operating as such , I get. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ion Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) On 5/12/2018 at 5:55 PM, Stosh said: Solid ice doesnt become liquid when it melts? That I dont get, but if yall agree one can be considered not to be existing , being just part of the whole and operating as such , I get. Solid does not become liquid. Just like cold never becomes hot. The one becoming is not the one who became. Youth does not become old. Furthermore water has no nature it never becomes anything; it has no natural state but it's state is always conditioned. This was te point of the post, that no self has power to act or cause indipendently of conditions, against conditions or above conditions. Water is incapable of Ever Becoming anything. Edited May 14, 2018 by ion 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ion Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) Another way to think about it is; Does water become ice? Or, does freeze (cold) become water? Do either become the other? Is the grass green? Or is green the grass? Sounds simple or obvious but do you know why grass appears green? That is the only wavelength of light, or color, not absorbed or used by the plant. Nly green light is deflected by the plant. Grass is not green, but you can not rightfully say that it is not green because green is what we see. Green is being the grass as much as grass itself is green. Niether is true or untrue or both or not both. Form is emptiness; emptiness is form. Edited May 14, 2018 by ion Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
