Book Of Enoch Chapter 22....Souls of the dead

[TheCLounge]

Thoughts?

 

2Internally it was deep, capacious, and very smooth; as smooth as if it had been rolled over: it was both deep and dark to behold. 

3Then Raphael, one of the holy angels who were with me, answered and said, These are the delightful places where the spirits, the souls of the dead, will be collected; for them were they formed; and here will be collected all the souls of the sons of men. 

4These places, in which they dwell, shall they occupy until the day of judgment, and until their appointed period. 

5Their appointed period will be long, even until the great judgment. And I saw the spirits of the sons of men who were dead; and their voices reached to heaven, while they were accusing. 6Then I inquired of Raphael, an angel who was with me, and said, Whose spirit is that, the voice of which reaches to heaven, and accuses? 

7He answered, saying, This is the spirit of Abel who was slain by Cain his brother; and who will accuse that brother, until his seed

perish from the seed of the human race.

 9At that time therefore I inquired respecting him, and respecting the general judgment, saying, Why is one separated from another? He answered, Three separations have been made between the spirits of the dead, and thus have the spirits of the righteous been separated. 10Namely, by a chasm, by water, and by light above it. 

11And in the same way likewise are sinners separated when they die, and are buried in the earth; judgment not overtaking them in their lifetime. 

12Here their souls are separated. Moreover, abundant is their suffering until the time of the great judgment, the castigation, and the torment of those who eternally execrate, whose souls are punished and bound there for ever.

13And thus has it been from the beginning of the world. Thus has there existed a separation between the souls of those who utter complaints, and of those who watch for

their destruction, to slaughter them in the day of sinners. 

14A receptacle of this sort has been formed for the souls of unrighteous men, and of sinners; of those who have completed crime, and associated with the impious, whom they resemble. Their souls shall not be annihilated in the day of judgment, neither shall they arise from this place. Then I blessed God, 

15And said, Blessed by my Lord, the Lord of glory and of righteousness, who reigns over all for ever and for ever.

 

Chapter 23

1From there I went to another place, towards the west, unto the extremities of the earth. 2Where I beheld a fire blazing and running along without cessation, which intermitted its course neither by day nor by night; but continued always the same.

3I inquired, saying, What is this, which never ceases?

4Then Raguel, one of the holy angels who were with me, answered,

5And said, This blazing fire, which you behold running towards the west, is that of all the luminaries of heaven.

 

 

This entire book appears to be about astrology..

[oak]

Don't really believe you want our thoughts on the matter I think you just want recognition about your point of view.

I would even dare to make two parallels between want of recognition, sexual insatisfaction and lack of self esteem.

Edited November 22, 2017 by oak
punctuation

[TheCLounge]

Just wanted to know what you take from it. Especially being that we speak on reincarnation..

 

As for everything else i have no idea where you got that idea from

[oak]

Think about it, or don't. Done here.

[TheCLounge]

Ma'am if I've offended you in any way I apologize 

 

Not sure if you're a male or not. But I'm just assuming you're a woman because you're acting like one..

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, TheCLounge said:

Thoughts?

 

 

 

This entire book appears to be about astrology..

 

Is this from the real book of Enoch ore the pop new age fake one ?

 

The real one is obviously about astrology, as evidenced by the beginning of its first chapter  ( which is a better reference to show the associations .  This obvious link is maybe one reason it was considered 'Apocrypha ' and not included in The Bible ?  

[Cheshire Cat]

I always had the impression that astrologers tend to see more than what it's written. But I never met an astrologer who could actually impress me with his predictions.

 

That said, I've been told that the bible itself is full of astrological instructions.

 

 

[9th]

Quote

1. ⌈⌈And from thence I went to another place of the earth⌉⌉, and he showed me a mountain range of fire which burnt ⌈⌈day and night⌉⌉. 2. And I went beyond it and saw seven magnificent mountains all differing each from the other, and the stones (thereof) were magnificent and beautiful, magnificent as a whole, of glorious appearance and fair exterior: ⌈⌈three towards⌉⌉ the east, ⌈⌈one⌉⌉ founded on the other, and three towards the south, one upon the other, and deep rough ravines, no one of which joined with any other. 3. And the seventh mountain was in the midst of these, and it excelled them in height, resembling the seat of a throne: and fragrant trees encircled the throne. 4. And amongst them was a tree such as I had never yet smelt, neither was any amongst them nor were others like it: it had a fragrance beyond all fragrance, and its leaves and blooms and wood wither not for ever: and its fruit ⌈⌈is beautiful, and its fruit⌉⌉ resembles the dates of a palm. 5. Then I said: '⌈How⌉ beautiful is this tree, and fragrant, and its leaves are fair, and its blooms ⌈⌈very⌉⌉ delightful in appearance.' 6. Then answered Michael, one of the holy ⌈⌈and honoured⌉⌉ angels who was with me, and was their leader.

 

1. And he said unto me: 'Enoch, why dost thou ask me regarding the fragrance of the tree, and ⌈why⌉ dost thou wish to learn the truth?' Then I answered him ⌈⌈saying⌉⌉: 'I wish to know about everything, but especially about this tree.' And he answered saying: 'This high mountain ⌈⌈which thou hast seen⌉⌉, whose summit is like the throne of God, is His throne, where the Holy Great One, the Lord of Glory, the Eternal King, will sit, when He shall come down to visit the earth with goodness. 4. And as for this fragrant tree no mortal is permitted to touch it till the great judgement, when He shall take vengeance on all and bring (everything) to its consummation for ever. It shall then be given to the righteous and holy. 5. Its fruit shall be for food to the elect: it shall be transplanted to the holy place, to the temple of the Lord, the Eternal King.

6 Then shall they rejoice with joy and be glad,
And into the holy place shall they enter;
And its fragrance shall be in their bones,
And they shall live a long life on earth,
Such as thy fathers lived:
And in their days shall no ⌈⌈sorrow or⌉⌉ plague
Or torment or calamity touch them.'

7 Then blessed I the God of Glory, the Eternal King, who hath prepared such things for the righteous, and hath created them and promised to give to them.

 

 

[TheCLounge]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Is this from the real book of Enoch ore the pop new age fake one ?

 

The real one is obviously about astrology, as evidenced by the beginning of its first chapter  ( which is a better reference to show the associations .  This obvious link is maybe one reason it was considered 'Apocrypha ' and not included in The Bible ?  

I found it off amazon. Didn't know there was another to be honest. When reading it I began to wonder if angels are really nothing but just astrological figures

[TheCLounge]

57 minutes ago, Cheshire Cat said:

I always had the impression that astrologers tend to see more than what it's written. But I never met an astrologer who could actually impress me with his predictions.

 

That said, I've been told that the bible itself is full of astrological instructions.

 

 

What baffles me is the language they used at the time to write their thoughts. This book is pretty explicit when it comes to astrological references. Maybe this book was taken out because they knew it would make others more interested in the occult?

[9th]

Quote

And the vision was shown to me thus: Behold, in the vision clouds invited me and a mist summoned me, and the course of the stars and the lightnings sped and hastened me, and the winds in ⁹ the vision caused me to fly and lifted me upward, and bore me into heaven. And I went in till I drew nigh to a wall which is built of crystals and surrounded by tongues of fire: and it began to affright ¹⁰ me. And I went into the tongues of fire and drew nigh to a large house which was built of crystals: and the walls of the house were like a tesselated floor (made) of crystals, and its groundwork was ¹¹ of crystal. Its ceiling was like the path of the stars and the lightnings, and between them were ¹² fiery cherubim, and their heaven was (clear as) water. A flaming fire surrounded the walls, and its ¹³ portals blazed with fire. And I entered into that house, and it was hot as fire and cold as ice: there ¹⁴ were no delights of life therein: fear covered me, and trembling got hold upon me. And as I quaked ¹⁵ and trembled, I fell upon my face. And I beheld a vision, And lo! there was a second house, greater ¹⁶ than the former, and the entire portal stood open before me, and it was built of flames of fire. And in every respect it so excelled in splendour and magnificence and extent that I cannot describe to ¹⁷ you its splendour and its extent. And its floor was of fire, and above it were lightnings and the path ¹⁸ of the stars, and its ceiling also was flaming fire. And I looked and saw therein a lofty throne: its appearance was as crystal, and the wheels thereof as the shining sun, and there was the vision of ¹⁹ cherubim. And from underneath the throne came streams of flaming fire so that I could not look ²⁰ thereon. And the Great Glory sat thereon, and His raiment shone more brightly than the sun and ²¹ was whiter than any snow. None of the angels could enter and could behold His face by reason ²² of the magnificence and glory and no flesh could behold Him. The flaming fire was round about Him, and a great fire stood before Him, and none around could draw nigh Him: ten thousand times ²³ ten thousand (stood) before Him, yet He needed no counselor. And the most holy ones who were ²⁴ nigh to Him did not leave by night nor depart from Him. And until then I had been prostrate on my face, trembling: and the Lord called me with His own mouth, and said to me: ' Come hither, ²⁵ Enoch, and hear my word.' And one of the holy ones came to me and waked me, and He made me rise up and approach the door: and I bowed my face downwards.

 

 

[TheCLounge]

11 hours ago, TheCLounge said:

14A receptacle of this sort has been formed for the souls of unrighteous men, and of sinners; of those who have completed crime, and associated with the impious, whom they resemble. Their souls shall not be annihilated in the day of judgment, neither shall they arise from this place. Then I blessed God, 

 

So "sinners" won't be judged? Stuck in limbo?

[9th]

4 hours ago, 9th said:

And I entered into that house, and it was hot as fire and cold as ice: there were no delights of life therein:

 

[9th]

4 hours ago, 9th said:

And lo! there was a second house, greater than the former, and the entire portal stood open before me, and it was built of flames of fire. And in every respect it so excelled in splendour and magnificence and extent that I cannot describe to you its splendour and its extent.

 

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, TheCLounge said:

I found it off amazon. Didn't know there was another to be honest. When reading it I began to wonder if angels are really nothing but just astrological figures

 

interesting postulations .  But with qualifications ;

 

1.  'Back then '  ( 'old mind' ,  pre scientific revolution, 'western civilised mind' )    an angel, a celestial object / phenomena , a persons character, a specific gem, animal , etc etc .  could all be 'the same thing' , just manifestations of that  same thing.

 

So I wouldn't say 'nothing but' astrological figures .  But I think the descriptions of angels show astrological qualities.

 

2. Our propensity to 'personalise' ,  'deify' , 'give character to'  objects and forces so they are better understood or related to.

 

This is more obvious in cases of  7 sets - usually relating to the 7 observable celestial objects .

 

Take the developments in Zoroastrianism for example ;   Supposedly one of the first expressions of monotheism; yet  'Ahura Mazda' has 6 'amesha spentas' . Some considered this , then an expression of henotheism, not mono theism. In any case, they are clearly defined as  'aspects of God' or 'observable qualities that a person can have ' that attributed to God. Over time they morph into 'Yazata' , a concept we later  got the ideas of angels from.

 

One interpretation is God ( or Ahura mazda) is the Sun, and the 'divine sparks' of Ahura Mazda  are the other 6 observable celestial moving objects .

 

There is a whole central idea around this and many ancient ways of thinking and comprehending the observable.   

 

Also, one should realise that before a certain time, hermetic thought, neoplatonism, astrology etc, were all valid subjects in Christianity. It was only later that the 'pogrom' appeared and started changing, sensoring and apocaphising a lot of its older writings.

 

The concept of 'interrelatedness'   is still pop in neohermetic circles, the occult, etc.  It still has surviving forms in modern society eg, ones birthstone on a ring, I think the jewellers society publishes such lists now.

 

The Modern classic is 777 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/777_and_Other_Qabalistic_Writings_of_Aleister_Crowley#Liber_777

     -    

3. The subject itself is cryptic and lends itself to analogy, metaphor and imagery.  And, at certain times it had to be masked to avoid persecution.

 

The original pop version is in Agrippa  ( but note his Christian focus and introductory 'apologetics' )...... soon persecution for any involved was soon to rear its head .

 

Edited November 23, 2017 by Nungali

[TheCLounge]

Thank you for the insight Nungali!!!

[TheCLounge]

I remember when I was in church (the one that kicked me out) I mentioned that angels are related to signs, astrological figures, numerological figures, and both earthly and heavenly symbols.

 

Once again they gave me the "side eye" because they thought it was "witchcraft"...

 

But the fact that these writers are able to metaphorically describe such things are incredible as well as highly creative..

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by TheCLounge

[Nungali]

Well, where did this church gets its angel from in the first place ?   The Bible no doubt.    There are 'elemental angels in the Bible as well.      Obviously many modern Christian churches are wholly ignorant of their older origins where they actually had a cosmology and 'Hierarchy of Celestial Beings/ or Angels .

 

 

Looking at just the archangels   ;

 

The evidence leads to three archangels. There are a total of seven archangels as illustrated in the Book of Enoch. Only one is actually described in the Bible. But the historical book of Enoch ( and other sources * ) say that there are seven archangels of which Michael may be the head archangel,

 

*        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Archangels

 

They hierarchy might be better understood by looking at the old model of the 'Universe'  

 

 

The earth at the centre;  'interior' , surrounded by the 'spheres' of the planets, the fixed stars and constellations, the hierarchy of beings, moving upwards and outwards  and all surrounded and encased by 'The highest aspect' .  Like spheres or shells ; they termed them 'crystal spheres'.

 

It also helps  to understand the way they saw everything as inter=related and effecting things in 'nature'  , the 'earth' .

[TheCLounge]

Christian/Jewish mysticism is full of enlightenment but the ego based religious systems have decided to keep these secrets away from the public to gain power and control over them.

 

Now that we are in the new age of information do you finally believe these things will be revealed to the public as the systems slowly crumble?

 

I believe the apocalyptic books are about the downfall of dogmatic religion and secret systems. And the stars/astrological figures (angels and upper kingdoms) are soon aligning to destroy them..