What is Non-duality?

[allinone]

3 hours ago, s1va said:

 

 

I think the above 2 points explain the difference between self and emptiness in a simple and effective way.  Thanks, it was helpful to me.

 

wouldn't emptiness be just another word for mind/nondual?

 

here what people say

 

41 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

It is all energy, one and the same.

 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi dwai,

 

I have just arrived at the Non-duality block as an absolute new kid. Why? I had not thought of non-duality before in my life. I had a quick scan of the responses and I am very impressed by the quality of thoughts.

 

But I choose not to be influenced by these learned/experiential thoughts as I want to know myself unaffectedly in relation to One. So I will not read the responses yet and engage here only your introductory post. I define One as "an underlying non-separateness" and not "a single thing" (as borrowed from you).

 

Nice...welcome to the block

 

 

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Upfront Non-duality is qualified as not a "a single thing" for me and my premises re the bullet pointers are these correspondingly:

- Non-duality can be described in words, otherwise how do we communicate? But words have limitations, mixed significance...

- The mind can reach Non-duality but not necessary with words but through experiences, emotions, music... Each mind may reach Non-duality differently as each life is a road less traveled.

- Non-duality means - (a) yes ~ to subject-object distinction but (b) no ~ to subject-object separation. 

 

Can you really use words to describe something that is not an object? Can you describe your awareness? I mean a real description , not a label. Can you describe the Dao?

 

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

 

Subject-object distinction/non-separation (as One) underlines my life experiences. Everything I experience is predicated on the Taoist subject-object duality. As One, I am experiencing objects subjectively because I am me. Others may experience the same objects differently because they are different from me. Each of our reality is One-based individually, to each his/her own. I respect the One's of others.

 

Yes all experience is predicated on duality. So as One (I),  are you not awareness experiencing objects through your mind-body (which themselves are objects as well)?

 

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

 

My body-mind is my One - they are distinct but not separated. They rise and fall in tandem as One.

 

Decide this -- are you "One" - the Mind-body? Or are you "One" to whom the mind-body seems to belong?

 

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

 

"I" = my individual One.

 

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

 

My answer - I am the moment linking the last moment with the next as One.

 

Why is that important? In the "I" do the past and the future even exist? Past is gone, future is not there yet. 

 

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

 

I am the present One at any moment.

 

This is better  

 

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

 

Which comes first - existence or awareness? But in a fraction of a second, my answer will be this - "they are One and the same" (knowing that they are distinct but not separable - in that moment).

 

+1

 

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

"I" is object-subject ~ the One.

 

Is it? In the Present, are you not aware even if there is no object? I refer to the fraction of a second exercise.

 

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

I am my parents' reproductive cells; biologically my parent exist in me (being) and it is a biological fact (being aware). My children have my sperms. So biologically... I am the bridge between my parents and children as One continuum. I had good parents and have good children - I have One good blessed life. I am part of my parents and my children are part of me - we are a blessed One. My wife is One of us. We are all - One and all to each other. "I" is just an alphabet.

 

 

Where is all this known? Is it not only in awareness? Is it many awarenesses? Are there any qualities that you can attribute to awareness that implies multiplicity is even possible?

 

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

 

What is an objective reality without its subjective elements and vice versa? They are One?

 

 

Indeed  

 

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

 

My One is non-dualistic. It is more than one. "I" is the ninth alphabet - the simplest of the twenty-six.

 

 

I embrace both Taoism and Buddhism a philosophies. I accept Buddhist impermanence. Past, present and future are not permanent - nothing is 'constant' for me.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

 

One is always there - before I was borne and after I am gone. Non-duality prevails in The Void - my model.

 

dwai - Thank you for starting this thread. Your introduction has provided me with a mental framework for me to gather and air my thoughts. I will read the rest of this thread with my above thoughts in tow - to touch base respectfully with other thoughts in terms of One with others.

 

- LimA

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. 

[allinone]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

It is very important to discern what the "sense of self" is and whether it is indeed non-dual.

 

i think what is even more important is: does it even matter if it is nondual or not. If we know what result we expect. Since if we don't know the effect or result then the importance what self is doesn't have any impact.

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

if you have a sense or even feeling, there is an experiencer and an experience. Then there is a Subject-object duality. That is not it. 

 

sense of self is basically you know that it is your hand what touches the table. So you can have that sense that you are touching the table as a pure sense in mind. So its pretty much a clearcut kinderkarten pointer to antimatter..edit or not, dunno but i see logic somewhere what can be trained and proved.

 

(i bail out of conversation since i have used up all my thinking matter)

Edited November 27, 2017 by allinone

[doc benway]

Yes, nice thread.

Thanks to all who have contributed.

 

A corollary to the original question, "what is non-duality?" is its converse.

What is NOT non-duality? 

or 

What is duality?

or more specifically,

If everyone and everything are already non-dual, what does it mean to talk about duality and in what way does it exist?

 

I thought it might be food for additional consideration, particularly given the direction of some of the earlier discussion and debate about the pervasiveness of non-duality or its lack therof. I find considering the converse statement or question can be very helpful when exploring challenging concepts in the spiritual arena. It's helped me a great deal in some of the esoteric dzogchen teachings I've encountered.

 

 

 

[Apech]

6 minutes ago, steve said:

Yes, nice thread.

Thanks to all who have contributed.

 

A corollary to the original question, "what is non-duality?" is its converse.

What is NOT non-duality? 

or 

What is duality?

or more specifically,

If everyone and everything are already non-dual, what does it mean to talk about duality and in what way does it exist?

 

I thought it might be food for additional consideration, particularly given the direction of some of the earlier discussion and debate about the pervasiveness of non-duality or its lack therof. I find considering the converse statement or question can be very helpful when exploring challenging concepts in the spiritual arena. It's helped me a great deal in some of the esoteric dzogchen teachings I've encountered.

 

 

 

 

My thought on this is that duality is a product of knowing - which is in turn brought about by discriminating awareness, categorisation, naming, distinguishing between things and so on.  And the reason this is not just something we can dismiss (on the basis that it is somehow false) is that doing this is fundamental to our being and survival.  We have to be able to distinguish between edible and poisonous fruit for instance - or between a tiger and a goat - we need to divide things into namable family groups other wise we can't function.  The most basic division is between self and other - subject and object - and around this based on experience is our ego.

 

 

[dwai]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

My thought on this is that duality is a product of knowing - which is in turn brought about by discriminating awareness, categorisation, naming, distinguishing between things and so on.  And the reason this is not just something we can dismiss (on the basis that it is somehow false) is that doing this is fundamental to our being and survival.  We have to be able to distinguish between edible and poisonous fruit for instance - or between a tiger and a goat - we need to divide things into namable family groups other wise we can't function.  The most basic division is between self and other - subject and object - and around this based on experience is our ego.

 

 

That is predicated on the experience of a body-mind that needs this type of thinking for survival right? Does it have any bearing on your awareness by itself? 

[Apech]

11 minutes ago, dwai said:

That is predicated on the experience of a body-mind that needs this type of thinking for survival right? Does it have any bearing on your awareness by itself? 

 

 

Well if we take 'consciousness' to mean 'with knowing' then it is fundamental to being conscious.  This means that becoming 'awakened' to true nature does not preclude but include this kind of discrimination such that it does not cease but is seen for what it is.  (Not very well expressed perhaps but I hope you get what I mean).

 

 

[3bob]

The "one" as alluded to in Taoism is "born" or the first born of Tao... to me that One is not just a one per say but the -all - (or all manifest from the grossest to the super subtle)...as in all time, space, place, beings, etc.. And the Atman knows of all of that!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2017 by 3bob

[s1va]

1 hour ago, allinone said:

 

wouldn't emptiness be just another word for mind/nondual?

 

here what people say

 

 

 

It all goes back to what each term mean personally to us.  What does nondual mean to you?  Do you think mind and nondual are the same?

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Can you really use words to describe something that is not an object? Can you describe your awareness? I mean a real description , not a label. Can you describe the Dao?

 

Hi dwai,

 

Non-duality can be described in words, otherwise how do we communicate? Aren't we using words now? But words are context specific and have limitations, mixed significance... However I do not need words to communicate with myself.

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Yes all experience is predicated on duality. So as One (I),  are you not awareness experiencing objects through your mind-body (which themselves are objects as well)?

 

I have made known that One is not "I" to me. It is -

5 hours ago, Limahong said:

I define One as "an underlying non-separateness" and not "a single thing" (as borrowed from you).

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Decide this -- are you "One" - the Mind-body? Or are you "One" to whom the mind-body seems to belong?

 

One = mind-body as "an underlying non-separateness".

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

In the "I" do the past and the future even exist? Past is gone, future is not there yet. 

 

Past + present + future - is a non-separable temporal continuum to me.

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Is it? In the Present, are you not aware even if there is no object? I refer to the fraction of a second exercise.

 

Yes - with 'time' as an inseparable continuum and 'object-subject' as "an underlying non-separateness".

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Where is all this known? Is it not only in awareness? Is it many awarenesses? Are there any qualities that you can attribute to awareness that implies multiplicity is even possible?

 

In my blood and genetic code.

 

dwai - once again thank you.

 

- LimA

[C T]

What has a direct bearing on awareness are habitual tendencies. 

 

Habits that create the illusion of permanence are responsible for creating illusory obstacles that divide awareness into its samsaric opposite (avidya/not seeing things directly so as to recognise essence, which in Buddhism its believed to be the non-dual, primordial, perfected, self-so union of emptiness and compassion), thereby creating incessant loops of 'wrong views'. A continuous misapprehension of reality occurs as both a cause & result. Buddhist practice is the path that puts emphasis on the rooting out of these binding habits by cultivating 'Right View', and also the other seven pillars that make up the Eightfold Path. All other Yanas, right up to Dzogchen and Mahamudra, are basically nothing more than expedient means to refine this View. 

 

[doc benway]

Another factor at play in the arising of duality is having the capacity for language.

It seems to me that humans distinguish the "self" from "other" as a function of language, at least in part. 

All living creatures need to be able to distinguish threat from asset but I wonder to what degree the distinction between self and other arises in living creatures other than humans. 

Do lions eat water buffalo because there is the sense that "I" must survive?

Or is it simply a natural consequence of experiencing hunger and having the appropriate physical characteristics to hunt and eat along with learning from their parents and pride...

 

Perhaps our primary distinction between self and other resides in our capacity for abstract thought.

Abstract thought is predicated upon the capacity for language. 

For me, a practical and effective way to define duality is the conceptual discrimination between self and other.

Non-duality is simply non-discrimination between self and other.

This is not conceptual, however, it is experiential. 

Understanding what non-duality is has nothing to do with resting in non-dual experience.

In fact, I suspect it may be an obstacle for many people. 

 

All speculation on my part.

I'm not as interested in understanding as I once was although that curiosity and tendency to think and analyze is still there.

I've found that, for me, my "understanding" of non-duality has little to do with questions and answers and far more to do with having adopted what seems to be an effective practice that encourages, cultivates, and reinforces a deeper level of non-dual experience. Over time there is more familiarity with that absence of self - other distinction. It gradually comes off the cushion and into action and interaction. I feel that it can be cultivated into a very high level of application and consistency.

 

I also agree with those who emphasize the importance of things like devotion, surrender, trust, gratitude, and so forth. Those are the fuel and the context within which blessings tend to manifest. I've never seen this play out more clearly than in my practices of dream and sleep yoga. It's quite astonishing at times.

 

 

 

[s1va]

11 minutes ago, steve said:

Understanding what non-duality is has nothing to do with resting in non-dual experience.

In fact, I suspect it may be an obstacle for many people. 

 

 

Excellent point.  I totally agree with both statements, understanding has nothing to do with the experience & such understanding becoming an obstacle.  This is why the path of intellectual analysis and inquiry alone does not take one far, imho.

 

17 minutes ago, steve said:

I've found that, for me, my "understanding" of non-duality has little to do with questions and answers and far more to do with having adopted what seems to be an effective practice that encourages, cultivates, and reinforces a deeper level of non-dual experience. Over time there is more familiarity with that absence of self - other distinction. It gradually comes off the cushion and into action and interaction. I feel that it can be cultivated into a very high level of application and consistency.

 

I also agree with those who emphasize the importance of things like devotion, surrender, trust, gratitude, and so forth. Those are the fuel and the context within which blessings tend to manifest. I've never seen this play out more clearly than in my practices of dream and sleep yoga. It's quite astonishing at times.

 

Very wise words.  Your post resonates deeply with my understanding.  I am in agreement with the 'effective practices rather than questions and answers', surrender, trust, gratitude, etc.  A truly insightful post in it's entirety.  Thank you.   

[dwai]

Understanding has a role to play for sure. It will never get one to reside in nondual awareness. But then again, awareness  it is never not nondual.

 

A Frustrating topic when approached from the mind.  But the intellect does have a role to play, until it doesn’t anymore. 

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

But then again, awareness  it is never not nondual.

 

I'll have to disagree with you on this point.

Awareness is a relatively ambiguous word.

All awareness is not non-dual in my definition, that is a very specific and special case.

I like the ocean analogy, the nature of water is the same throughout and yet ever wave is unique and individual.

 

The tradition I practice does a wonderful job of exploring and describing the differences between mind and its essence. 

Both have the characteristics of awareness but both cannot be said to be in a state of non-duality.

If awareness was never not non-dual all humans would exhibit perfect compassion. 

That's not our experience.

There is a beautiful scripture called the 21 Nails which describes the distinction between mind and its essence form 21 different perspectives. It's an amazing teaching and where I learned to apply the method of understanding through considering the converse statement.

 

From the perspective of non-duality one sees that they have never been separate by so much as an atom.

From the perspective of duality, one spends a lifetime deluded by the self-differentiation.

Both are legitimate perspectives and to deny either is inaccurate in my opinion.

 

The fact of non-duality does not negate the  fact of duality and vice versa.

Both coexist as the two truths.

[dwai]

57 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I'll have to disagree with you on this point.

Awareness is a relatively ambiguous word.

All awareness is not non-dual in my definition, that is a very specific and special case.

I like the ocean analogy, the nature of water is the same throughout and yet ever wave is unique and individual.

 

The tradition I practice does a wonderful job of exploring and describing the differences between mind and its essence. 

Both have the characteristics of awareness but both cannot be said to be in a state of non-duality.

If awareness was never not non-dual all humans would exhibit perfect compassion. 

That's not our experience.

There is a beautiful scripture called the 21 Nails which describes the distinction between mind and its essence form 21 different perspectives. It's an amazing teaching and where I learned to apply the method of understanding through considering the converse statement.

 

From the perspective of non-duality one sees that they have never been separate by so much as an atom.

From the perspective of duality, one spends a lifetime deluded by the self-differentiation.

Both are legitimate perspectives and to deny either is inaccurate in my opinion.

 

The fact of non-duality does not negate the  fact of duality and vice versa.

Both coexist as the two truths.

 

 

One is called the truth of “ultimate value” and the other of “practical value”.

 

But it is also true that as long as one puts currency in the relative dualistic reality, one cannot go beyond it to see the nondualistic one. 

 

Edited November 28, 2017 by dwai
Added some thoughts upon further reflection

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

 

 

One is called the truth of “ultimate value” and the other of “practical value”.

 

But it is also true that as long as one puts currency in the relative dualistic reality, one cannot go beyond it to see the nondualistic one. 

 

 

I once again will have to disagree.

Whether we put currency in the relative reality or not, it is as it is and it is our experience for most of our lives.

Non-dual experience does not involve "going beyond" duality any more than the ocean goes beyond waves.

I don't mean that we should indulge ourselves in ignorance by embracing duality, neither should we indulge ourselves in ignorance by denying its presence and influence in our lives prematurely.

 

Like you said, the truth of nonduality is always already there - our fundamental nature.

We do not reach it by going anywhere or beyond anything. 

We get there by letting go - surrender - into our essence.

And yet that does not negate the dual aspect of our life experience.

 

If we are blessed with non-dual insight we have the opportunity to integrate the two truths.

Perhaps with enough devotion and commitment we will someday be able to rest in that essence fully and permanently in every waking, dreaming, and sleeping moment until this body dies. That's my practice. 

 

Until that moment, I don't see value in denying that much of our life experience is that of subject-object experience.

Far better to accept that aspect ourselves as equally real, true, and valuable and make the most of the opportunity it affords us. In the Bön tradition it is our opportunity to work for the benefit of others. This has two important effects - through the lens of non-duality we see that helping others is helping ourselves and through focusing on the needs of others we de-emphasize the primacy of the relative self, weaken it, and come closer to that non-dual essence. 

 

Edited November 28, 2017 by steve

[3bob]

Sri Yantra

 

[Jetsun]

On 24/11/2017 at 10:47 PM, s1va said:

 

If the identification is dropped (not by effort, naturally), and then later it comes back, does this mean it is "going beyond" or the non-dual state?  This is a crucial question for me based on my own past experiences.  The Realization once arrived should be a constant and permanent experience -- continuous bliss at some levels.

 

If it goes away even momentarily, would it still be considered non-dual?  

 

Edit:  The calm mind that is discussed or even the Samadhi states seem to come and go.

 

The truth of our being is always non-dual, all the time for everyone, it is more a matter of recognition. 

 

*Oops I posted this by accident phone in pocket 

Edited November 28, 2017 by Jetsun

[s1va]

10 hours ago, steve said:

 

I once again will have to disagree.

Whether we put currency in the relative reality or not, it is as it is and it is our experience for most of our lives.

Non-dual experience does not involve "going beyond" duality any more than the ocean goes beyond waves.

I don't mean that we should indulge ourselves in ignorance by embracing duality, neither should we indulge ourselves in ignorance by denying its presence and influence in our lives prematurely.

 

Like you said, the truth of nonduality is always already there - our fundamental nature.

We do not reach it by going anywhere or beyond anything. 

We get there by letting go - surrender - into our essence.

And yet that does not negate the dual aspect of our life experience.

 

If we are blessed with non-dual insight we have the opportunity to integrate the two truths.

Perhaps with enough devotion and commitment we will someday be able to rest in that essence fully and permanently in every waking, dreaming, and sleeping moment until this body dies. That's my practice. 

 

Until that moment, I don't see value in denying that much of our life experience is that of subject-object experience.

Far better to accept that aspect ourselves as equally real, true, and valuable and make the most of the opportunity it affords us. In the Bön tradition it is our opportunity to work for the benefit of others. This has two important effects - through the lens of non-duality we see that helping others is helping ourselves and through focusing on the needs of others we de-emphasize the primacy of the relative self, weaken it, and come closer to that non-dual essence. 

 

 

You have brought up some valid points about the truth that needs to be seen in duality.  I think what you have described corresponds nicely with the system of VishistAdvaita (qualified non-dual) expounded by Ramunuja.  Advaita is not the only explanation for the Vedanta and there are other traditions that explain the entire Vedanta with different logic.  Advaita is more popular these days outside India.  Vishishstadvaita and Dwaita are two other popular traditions that explain the entire Vedanta with different logic (there are more that are not as popular).  In the Vishsitadvaita system, the Brahman is accepted as 'One without second', in the sense it is unique and there is no second to it.  But other dualistic world of subject-object experience that we see is not rejected entirely as false and having no value at all.  They are held to be equally real, true and valuable.  This tradition also emphasizes on devotion, commitment & surrender, until the jiva-atma (individual self) understands and merges with the param-atma (Atman).  Until this becomes a constant experience.

[dwai]

10 hours ago, steve said:

 

I once again will have to disagree.

Whether we put currency in the relative reality or not, it is as it is and it is our experience for most of our lives.

Non-dual experience does not involve "going beyond" duality any more than the ocean goes beyond waves.

I don't mean that we should indulge ourselves in ignorance by embracing duality, neither should we indulge ourselves in ignorance by denying its presence and influence in our lives prematurely.

I think agreeing or disagreeing is non-sequitur. To be able to reside as the non-dual awareness, we have to drop the dualistic attachments. That means, the dropping of dualistic modes of thinking. Of course no one can deny that our mundane existence hinges on dualism. However, so long as we stick with the dualism, it is very hard  impossible to reside in non-dual.

10 hours ago, steve said:

 

Like you said, the truth of nonduality is always already there - our fundamental nature.

We do not reach it by going anywhere or beyond anything. 

We get there by letting go - surrender - into our essence.

And yet that does not negate the dual aspect of our life experience.

 

If we are blessed with non-dual insight we have the opportunity to integrate the two truths.

Perhaps with enough devotion and commitment we will someday be able to rest in that essence fully and permanently in every waking, dreaming, and sleeping moment until this body dies. That's my practice. 

Yes...but the method to be able to achieve that is to pay no heed to the dualism that inundates our senses and mind, until such permanent residing happens. 

10 hours ago, steve said:

 

Until that moment, I don't see value in denying that much of our life experience is that of subject-object experience.

Far better to accept that aspect ourselves as equally real, true, and valuable and make the most of the opportunity it affords us. In the Bön tradition it is our opportunity to work for the benefit of others. This has two important effects - through the lens of non-duality we see that helping others is helping ourselves and through focusing on the needs of others we de-emphasize the primacy of the relative self, weaken it, and come closer to that non-dual essence. 

 

 

The subject-object dualism is what is called "Maya".  It is what births the ephemeral ghosts. What you are proposing can only happen after a certain maturity. Yes, we can still go about the world and it's affairs and have conversations with  people about it and still be 100% aware and sure that there is only the non-dual that everything rises from and ceases into. That actually puts the worldly affairs into a better perspective. But, there has to be a clear and unequivocal 'awakening' first. Without that, there is only the transmigrating soul. 

 

That is the reason why Advaita Masters tell us to refute the dualistic world first, so we can know without an iota of doubt that the non-dual is our true nature. Otherwise, what happens is pramAda -- described as the course of a ball dropped from the top of the flight of stairs. It is likely impossible for one to stop this ball from rolling all the way down to the lowest level and then some before it comes to a halt. Then it is an upward climb again, in which time, the time to leave this body might be upon us. 

 

Like the sign in the airplanes say - "Before helping someone else with their oxygen mask, we should ensure our oxygen mask is securely installed".

 

[s1va]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

The subject-object dualism is what is called "Maya".  It is what births the ephemeral ghosts. What you are proposing can only happen after a certain maturity. Yes, we can still go about the world and it's affairs and have conversations with  people about it and still be 100% aware and sure that there is only the non-dual that everything rises from and ceases into. That actually puts the worldly affairs into a better perspective. But, there has to be a clear and unequivocal 'awakening' first. Without that, there is only the transmigrating soul. 

 

That is the reason why Advaita Masters tell us to refute the dualistic world first, so we can know without an iota of doubt that the non-dual is our true nature. Otherwise, what happens is pramAda -- described as the course of a ball dropped from the top of the flight of stairs. It is likely impossible for one to stop this ball from rolling all the way down to the lowest level and then some before it comes to a halt. Then it is an upward climb again, in which time, the time to leave this body might be upon us. 

 

Yes, there is no room for such dualistic views when it comes to Advaita.  The subject object dualism is held as maya or mithya (false illusion) in Advaita.  I think the above is entirely consistent with Advaita Vedanta.

 

This is why I pointed out that Steve's view seems to be consistent with the views of Vishishtadvaita.  

[allinone]

21 hours ago, s1va said:

 

It all goes back to what each term mean personally to us.  What does nondual mean to you?  Do you think mind and nondual are the same?

 

I need help, but from the point of independence where i am lost. That thought will have different sensors active and now if i ask directions the mind is nondual, antimatter.

So in sense organ i need find the homeless signal, the wanderer. I myself won't see it, its the mind what has directions leaps towards it automatically when it notices it. And then i know what i need to do.

So for me i just stay in one place and wait till the signal comes and mind leaps towards it or the connection will be made when two notices each other and match made.

 

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

I think agreeing or disagreeing is non-sequitur. To be able to reside as the non-dual awareness, we have to drop the dualistic attachments. That means, the dropping of dualistic modes of thinking. Of course no one can deny that our mundane existence hinges on dualism. However, so long as we stick with the dualism, it is very hard  impossible to reside in non-dual.

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Yes...but the method to be able to achieve that is to pay no heed to the dualism that inundates our senses and mind, until such permanent residing happens. 

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

 

The subject-object dualism is what is called "Maya".  It is what births the ephemeral ghosts. What you are proposing can only happen after a certain maturity. Yes, we can still go about the world and it's affairs and have conversations with  people about it and still be 100% aware and sure that there is only the non-dual that everything rises from and ceases into. That actually puts the worldly affairs into a better perspective. But, there has to be a clear and unequivocal 'awakening' first. Without that, there is only the transmigrating soul. 

 

I often wonder whether there is any definitive correlation between practice and a true 'awakening' of the non-dual awareness?

I suspect there is but some practice a lifetime and never experience that connection, while others have it spontaneously with no training whatsoever.

A close friend had such an awakening at ~9 years of age. 

It's very interesting to hear her description of it. 

 

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

 

That is the reason why Advaita Masters tell us to refute the dualistic world first, so we can know without an iota of doubt that the non-dual is our true nature. Otherwise, what happens is pramAda -- described as the course of a ball dropped from the top of the flight of stairs. It is likely impossible for one to stop this ball from rolling all the way down to the lowest level and then some before it comes to a halt. Then it is an upward climb again, in which time, the time to leave this body might be upon us. 

 

Like the sign in the airplanes say - "Before helping someone else with their oxygen mask, we should ensure our oxygen mask is securely installed".

 

 

Similar in the Mahayana - I vow to liberate myself so that I may effectively assist others...

 

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, s1va said:

 

Yes, there is no room for such dualistic views when it comes to Advaita.  The subject object dualism is held as maya or mithya (false illusion) in Advaita.  I think the above is entirely consistent with Advaita Vedanta.

 

This is why I pointed out that Steve's view seems to be consistent with the views of Vishishtadvaita.  

 

I do not hold there to be any underlying One so I don't think Vishishtadvaita would apply.