What is the healthiest way to sleep, and for how long?

[Taomeow]

,

 

Edited November 28, 2017 by Taomeow

[Taomeow]

6 hours ago, oak said:

for me it works like a charm...

 

 

 

 I clicked on your video and the ticking immediately caused me to brace myself for the ring and the opening lyrics:

"Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day / You fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way..."   

 

[oak]

33 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

 I clicked on your video and the ticking immediately caused me to brace myself for the ring and the opening lyrics:

"Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day / You fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way..."   

 

 

ooops...

 

I generally get the "time is on my side feeling"...

Edited November 28, 2017 by oak

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, KuroShiro said:

 

3. I know that a spring mattress can be killer, this summer I woke up with pain on my spine while sleeping on my back on an hotel bed. However last year I've searched extensively in search of the perfect base to sleep on and I had settled on a Scandinavian type bed. Only natural materials and steel springs assembled to keep the spine straight while sleeping on one's side (don't know if it also works while sleeping on your back):

 

Now you're saying it's better to sleep on a flat unyielding surface inducing doubt again

 

Can you maintain a straight spine while sleeping (on the side) on a hard surface with very little padding?

 

 

4. Are you saying your face/head would be in an overhang while sleeping, with the head only supported in the neck?

 

3. I've been sleeping on a surface like that for several years, ever since I came back from China, where two things happened.  First, I encountered the hardest bed I ever slept in and six weeks of the best sleep I ever had.  Second, a local massage therapist who had "seeing hands" told me, "You should sleep on a firmer surface."  Putting two and two together, upon returning home I first looked to buy, and then (failing to find it) designed and made a bed to follow that advice, and never looked back.  If I have to sleep in a hotel, I am more likely than not to drag the covers onto the floor and sleep there, with a rolled-up towel under my neck and head instead of that synthetic pillow that tries to kick your head out or roll it off or fry it,  and keeps whispering in your ear, "get lost, you, I don't want to be a pillow, I'm petroleum, dark and ancient, and I want to be buried in the ground!! Take your stupid head off me or I'll take it with me!"

 

4. No, I'm saying something like this.  I sleep on my right side, and this kind of pillow supports the neck and the head but does not press on the face, does not cause clenched jaws, does not lead to developing a double chin (one of the epidemics as people grow older, which I attribute to the wrong pillows), and in general makes life easier.  I'm a very fussy sleeper.  Some people sleep in any position with no qualms, I'm not one of them, so all my "qualms" are the outcome of "involuntary research" into the best ways to sleep spanning many years.  The pillow in the picture is ideal provided you hit the right height.  If you don't, adjust.  All my pillows are customized and redesigned to fit my head and neck, not some generic one.   

[Rara]

23 hours ago, Wayfarer said:

The answer is easy...

 

Become a parent, have a few kids, have no time to practise Qigong, get kept up all night with various demands, problems, nightmares.  Wake looking like a bloodhound. Rush around getting breakfast and school things ready while dreaming about Zuowang sitting and forgetting.  Collapse in a chair - wake a few hours later wondering where the morning has gone.

 

Then you soon begin to realise how much sleep you need, and what's the healthiest way to do it...here is the answer...

 

Grab any you can get - hope it won't be interrupted - get through 7 hours full and jump with joy - healthiest way?  Close eyes, close ears, remove all distractions - sleep.

 

 

 

 

I love this. I don't have kids...but know plenty that do.

 

And I have the audacity to complain about insomnia!

[KuroShiro]

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

3. I've been sleeping on a surface like that for several years, ever since I came back from China, where two things happened.  First, I encountered the hardest bed I ever slept in and six weeks of the best sleep I ever had.  Second, a local massage therapist who had "seeing hands" told me, "You should sleep on a firmer surface."  Putting two and two together, upon returning home I first looked to buy, and then (failing to find it) designed and made a bed to follow that advice, and never looked back.  If I have to sleep in a hotel, I am more likely than not to drag the covers onto the floor and sleep there, with a rolled-up towel under my neck and head instead of that synthetic pillow that tries to kick your head out or roll it off or fry it,  and keeps whispering in your ear, "get lost, you, I don't want to be a pillow, I'm petroleum, dark and ancient, and I want to be buried in the ground!! Take your stupid head off me or I'll take it with me!"

 

 

Great that you've found what works for you.

 

Have you checked if your spine stays straight while in your sleeping position? I can't see it being straight on a hard surface, it seems that it would be better to sleep on one's back.

 

Do you sleep on your back on the hotel floor or also on your side?

This reminded me of Crocodile Dundee he also slept on the floor.

 

[dawei]

31 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

Great that you've found what works for you.

 

Have you checked if your spine stays straight while in your sleeping position? I can't see it being straight on a hard surface, it seems that it would be better to sleep on one's back.

 

Do you sleep on your back on the hotel floor or also on your side?

This reminded me of Crocodile Dundee he also slept on the floor.

 

 

IMO, a hard surface encourages the back to relax into a straight position... as the surface is... well... STRAIGHT.   It tends to give chinese the flat butt look.

 

If I go to sleeping on my back, I'll sometimes put a pillow under the knees to flatten the lower back area. 

 

Everyone should explore what helps.

[oak]

54 minutes ago, dawei said:

Everyone should explore what helps

 

One thing for sure: it gets you out of your head and into your body. Just that is a great gift.

[Taomeow]

22 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

IMO, a hard surface encourages the back to relax into a straight position... as the surface is... well... STRAIGHT.   It tends to give chinese the flat butt look.

 

If I go to sleeping on my back, I'll sometimes put a pillow under the knees to flatten the lower back area. 

 

Everyone should explore what helps.

 

"Flat butt" is in the eye of the trends beholder, no?  Balloon butt is a very new (this century's) and physiologically dubious fashion, promoted by the same fetishists ruling the fashion industry that earlier invented balloon boobs, aided by plastic surgeons who are happy to balloon-pad, for profit, everything that moves to the tune of conditioned trends.  This fashion, masquerading as beauty but, to a differently conditioned eye (and, especially, to a de-conditioned one) looking  ridiculous, shall pass.  (When I was a teenager, a sticking-out butt carried a stigma -- now it's the opposite...)   An "average" Chinese butt, IMO, is more normal and anatomically correct, and is the outcome of the J-shaped rather than S-shaped spine, the former being the "real" human spine.  I've seen so many good postures in China, including in older people many of whom probably never even notice that they have a great posture, and I see so few here in SoCal where everybody is obsessed with "fitness" and with looks to the point of absolute moronity yet the whole resulting shape of the human body understood as "fit" is way distorted, unphysiological, hard on the skeletal system and the internal organs...  but I digress.  

 

     

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, KuroShiro said:

 

Great that you've found what works for you.

 

Have you checked if your spine stays straight while in your sleeping position? I can't see it being straight on a hard surface, it seems that it would be better to sleep on one's back.

 

Do you sleep on your back on the hotel floor or also on your side?

This reminded me of Crocodile Dundee he also slept on the floor.

 

 

I don't have to check, I feel it.   It keeps the mingmen closed for the night, which I find as important as closing your eyes for the night.  When the surface sags, it causes the mingmen to stay open all through the night, and qi to leak out all through the night.  That's when you wake up with stiffness and aches.  When it's closed, qi accumulates and circulates, and you wake up feeling as though you did yoga or qigong or stretches in your sleep.

 

I don't sleep on my back.  I don't have any objections against this position in theory, but practically, it keeps me awake, on any surface.

[Phoenix3]

11 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

I don't have to check, I feel it.   It keeps the mingmen closed for the night, which I find as important as closing your eyes for the night.  When the surface sags, it causes the mingmen to stay open all through the night, and qi to leak out all through the night.  That's when you wake up with stiffness and aches.  When it's closed, qi accumulates and circulates, and you wake up feeling as though you did yoga or qigong or stretches in your sleep.

 

I don't sleep on my back.  I don't have any objections against this position in theory, but practically, it keeps me awake, on any surface.

 

So you sleep just how you said previously, like how the Buddha did, with a few adjustments?

 

I tried that way, and while I could feel my self very slowly get more sleepier, it took way too long, and I just turned around onto my stomach and fell asleep in a minute.

 

Also, I’m not sure if sleeping on a hard surface is really natural because one of the first things you learn in camping is never sleep directly on the floor because the ground sucks out all the heat from your body. Yet all the east and south-east asian people (until very recently) used to just sleep on the floor. I’m not saying that’s necessarily the best way as this is because they didn’t have much of a choice, being simple farmers and laborers.

 

I’ve heard that sleeping in a hammock is a much more healthier way. I don’t know, as I’ve never tried it.

[Taomeow]

55 minutes ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

So you sleep just how you said previously, like how the Buddha did, with a few adjustments?

 

I tried that way, and while I could feel my self very slowly get more sleepier, it took way too long, and I just turned around onto my stomach and fell asleep in a minute.

 

Also, I’m not sure if sleeping on a hard surface is really natural because one of the first things you learn in camping is never sleep directly on the floor because the ground sucks out all the heat from your body. Yet all the east and south-east asian people (until very recently) used to just sleep on the floor. I’m not saying that’s necessarily the best way as this is because they didn’t have much of a choice, being simple farmers and laborers.

 

I’ve heard that sleeping in a hammock is a much more healthier way. I don’t know, as I’ve never tried it.

 

There's many intricacies.  I don't sleep exactly in the buddha-like pose, there's individual adjustments.  I was commenting on it as a "generally good" position, not my personal default position.  My default is a function of many factors, temperature being one of them.  E.g., a starfish position is fine when it's hot, but never when it's cold.

 

As for camping, back in the day I spent several summers kayaking in the wilderness, and some nights were cold, some were bitterly cold -- so some hay borrowed from a haystack to place under the tent's floor was one option, but not always available (we were far from inhabited parts and a haystack was a rare encounter).  But inside the sleeping bag designed to handle extreme cold, we would also wear wool clothes if necessary, in layers if necessary.  Most of the time it would get warm and toasty in no time, even though only inches away from the ground.  It's true that you absolutely don't want to sleep on a cold surface -- those sturdy peasants you brought up had a kang bed-stove and mostly slept on that in cold weather, not on the floor, if they could help it.  

Edited November 29, 2017 by Taomeow

[KuroShiro]

15 hours ago, dawei said:

 

IMO, a hard surface encourages the back to relax into a straight position... as the surface is... well... STRAIGHT.   It tends to give chinese the flat butt look.

 

 

14 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

I don't have to check, I feel it.   It keeps the mingmen closed for the night, which I find as important as closing your eyes for the night.  When the surface sags, it causes the mingmen to stay open all through the night, and qi to leak out all through the night.  That's when you wake up with stiffness and aches.  When it's closed, qi accumulates and circulates, and you wake up feeling as though you did yoga or qigong or stretches in your sleep.

 

 

We're all talking about sleeping on a flat hard surface (with minimal padding) on one's side right?

 

Then I just can't see it how you can keep a straight spine. For that to work your shoulder line width would have to be the same as your hip width and even then without any padding under the rib/lower back area that straight spine would probably collapse during the night.

 

 

How do you know the mingmen is closed? Can you feel it when it's closed or open? Also if it's open wouldn't that be good to facilitate qi absorption during the night?

[Taomeow]

18 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

 

 

We're all talking about sleeping on a flat hard surface (with minimal padding) on one's side right?

 

Then I just can't see it how you can keep a straight spine. For that to work your shoulder line width would have to be the same as your hip width and even then without any padding under the rib/lower back area that straight spine would probably collapse during the night.

 

 

How do you know the mingmen is closed? Can you feel it when it's closed or open? Also if it's open wouldn't that be good to facilitate qi absorption during the night?

 

You are describing some unbendable stick-man body.  I'm an hourglass woman, LOL.  I never said "straight line," the "straight spine" does not mean it's in a straight line.  It's in its physiological "closed" S shape which only becomes unphysiological when maintained constantly (as is the case with spines permanently frozen into this shape due to a combination of factors, from childhood developmental adversities to sedentary lifestyle to incorrect exercise routines to wrong idea in the head coming from images dispensed by the media to nutritional deficiencies to lifelong sagging beds and sitting toilets, to name a few.) 

 

The physiological shape of the spine is not straight.  In motion it alternates constantly between J shape and S shape.  Note though that the "live S "is nowhere near as dramatic as the graphics of the letter, the closing momentum is much subtler, but it's there, and designed for the "rest," "pause," yin part of the cycle.  Whereas the J, for the "act," "move," yang part.  People with frozen S spines act constantly out of an act-move-yang intent contradicted by the pause-relax-rest yin physical shape --their intent and their physicality are in a constant struggle.  That's the source of much lower back pain in the world.

 

In the sleep position I describe, the structure is subtly S-shaped, "closed for business," and it is maintained horizontally by that conforming and supporting (not sagging) pillow in the hollow between the shoulder and the lower part of the head, the physiological bend of the legs which are not kept straight and stiff either, and the release of the psoas inside the structure, and so on, so the weight does not rest on any one or two or three points but is distributed evenly along the whole structure.  It's a structure, and it's taiji-like -- soft on the outside, strong inside, soft tissues soft, bones firm.  It's all about alignments, and a firm foundation makes them possible.  

 

How I know the mingmen is closed -- well, I'm taiji and my teacher taught me to use it, and to use it, I have to feel it, so I learned to feel it.  On the level of gross anatomy, it corresponds to either the S-shape or the J-shape (though subtly, subtly!), so when I sleep in a "closed" position, I feel it close.  Whenever I shift in bed to change position, I open it, then close again upon finding the comfortable position that allows it.  Another indicator -- no more lower back pain, which I lived with for a long time before I learned.  It used to hurt smack in that area where it is located.  I watch it like a hawk.  Any twang there at any time means I'm doing something wrong, and then I investigate and adjust.   

 

"Qi absorption during the night" -- for this, you need to close the outer gates.  What you're absorbing is not "out there," you need to go deeply inward.  There's gates beyond gates there -- close the outer one, the inner ones will open.  Don't close the outer ones and you'll keep regurgitating the agitation of the outer world -- e.g. in your dreams.  I get maybe two or three mundane/meaningless dreams in a year.  These also indicate I'm doing something wrong, so I try to investigate and adjust.   

 

So if you really look closer, the right sleeping position is also the right cultivation position, for those who are into that sort of thing.  I only know the right kind of sleep for a taoist cultivator -- it goes through inner gates into dimensions that won't open unless you close the outer gates.  At least in my experience they won't.  

[KuroShiro]

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

You are describing some unbendable stick-man body.  I'm an hourglass woman, LOL.

 

 

It has nothing to do with unbendable, I was thinking about the male body.

 

Well yes for some women it is possible but again if the area between the shoulders and hips has no support and it collapses you lose the straight line of the straight spine.

 

 

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

I never said "straight line," the "straight spine" does not mean it's in a straight line.

 

The physiological shape of the spine is not straight.  In motion it alternates constantly between J shape and S shape. 

 

I'm talking about this line:

 

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

In the sleep position I describe, the structure is subtly S-shaped, "closed for business," and it is maintained horizontally by that conforming and supporting (not sagging) pillow in the hollow between the shoulder and the lower part of the head, the physiological bend of the legs which are not kept straight and stiff either, and the release of the psoas inside the structure, and so on, so the weight does not rest on any one or two or three points but is distributed evenly along the whole structure.  It's a structure, and it's taiji-like -- soft on the outside, strong inside, soft tissues soft, bones firm.  It's all about alignments, and a firm foundation makes them possible.  

 

So you're saying that you can keep the area between the shoulders and hips from collapsing without any support there?

 

 

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

How I know the mingmen is closed -- well, I'm taiji and my teacher taught me to use it, and to use it, I have to feel it, so I learned to feel it.  On the level of gross anatomy, it corresponds to either the S-shape or the J-shape (though subtly, subtly!), so when I sleep in a "closed" position, I feel it close.  Whenever I shift in bed to change position, I open it, then close again upon finding the comfortable position that allows it.

 

 

You don't feel the point opening/closing per se but the body alignment cues that keep the mingmen open or closed - is this correct? Is it controlled by the pelvic tilt?

 

 

 

 

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

It has nothing to do with unbendable, I was thinking about the male body.

 

Well yes for some women it is possible but again if the area between the shoulders and hips has no support and it collapses you lose the straight line of the straight spine.

 

 

 

I'm talking about this line:

 

 

So you're saying that you can keep the area between the shoulders and hips from collapsing without any support there?

 

 

 

 

You don't feel the point opening/closing per se but the body alignment cues that keep the mingmen open or closed - is this correct? Is it controlled by the pelvic tilt?

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, the area between my shoulders and hips is not collapsing.  In real-life situation both your pics above will cause it to collapse however, not just just the first one, because the head is tilted upward by the wrongly positioned pillow.  The woman is supporting her upper body with her jaw, cheek, and sideways-bent neck.  Also the "give" in the surface she's on is still excessive.  

 

As for the male body vs female -- I don't think it matters, but then, I've never lived in a male body.    My son is every bit as fussy as I am about his sleeping surface (and got himself a high quality coconut mattress, which is very firm and pretty awesome) while his dad can fall asleep sitting in a chair, and I actually have a picture from his army days where he sleeps soundly on two little stools like one of those hypnosis subjects they used to demo to the public -- head on one, legs on the other, nothing in between.  To each their own.  

 

The feel for opening or closing the mingmen is a complex affair, and if it was possible to explain in words, my taiji teacher would starve.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dawei]

In a word, sleep.  If it is not comfortable, shift. 

 

I personally do a pelvic tilt to assist in my back issue...  but maybe the issue is just in my thinking I have a back issue... when I am asleep, I am not aware of any back issue 

[Goldleaf]

On 11/25/2017 at 9:43 AM, oak said:

In this thread some members shared some interesting suggestions 

 

 

Let me try to describe the posture: They lie on their stomach with the head turned right, the right arm and right leg bent, and the left arm and left leg streched. As it is something universal and instinctive (like child's posture) I think that there must be something to it.

 

Doesn't that cause neck blockages?  Your neck is twisted to the side while the rest of your body is basically face-down?

 

I've googled the answer to this but as always, the first bunch of results I get are stupid Western medical sites which offer me numbers rather than first-hand experience.

 

Having said that I just read about sleeping face down benefits.

 

https://medium.com/@drstephanie/this-one-sleep-position-may-be-destroying-your-health-477f351e9b44

 

This wonderful and gorgeous chiropractor writes an interesting article about it.  (She also writes how women make better leaders because of the way their brains are wired compared to men, and that women need twice as much sex as men.  Good news for women and women's lib, bad news for daobums who overvalue semen retention XD)

 

[Goldleaf]

On 11/30/2017 at 1:02 PM, Taomeow said:

As for the male body vs female -- I don't think it matters, but then, I've never lived in a male body.    My son is every bit as fussy as I am about his sleeping surface (and got himself a high quality coconut mattress, which is very firm and pretty awesome) while his dad can fall asleep sitting in a chair, and I actually have a picture from his army days where he sleeps soundly on two little stools like one of those hypnosis subjects they used to demo to the public -- head on one, legs on the other, nothing in between.  To each their own.  

 

Thanks for sharing this, wonderful info.  (And hey, maybe you have lived in a male body in a previous lifetime )   Yet I noticed you never mentioned what mattress helps you have the best sleep?

 

Yeah interesting you mention army sleeping since I recently read a book by Bear Gryllis where he says,  he was so tired once that he fell asleep while walking.  (...and dreamt he fell off a cliff !!!)

 

I've had a look but can't seem to find a high quality coconut mattress.  I've find hybrid mattress of coconut / latex / spring, etc., but that's it.  I'll keep looking.

[oak]

12 hours ago, Goldleaf said:

 

Doesn't that cause neck blockages?  Your neck is twisted to the side while the rest of your body is basically face-down?

 

 

I just think there must be a very good reason why we adopt some postures instinctively- think of childs pose for example- but nothing like trying yourself. It may work well if you're 14it may not work so well if you're 41 : )

 

Thanks for the links

[Rocky Lionmouth]

If i’m not mentally fretting i’ll fall asleep on anything except moving vehicles. ”Teenager style”is the best one, even better when being the bigger spoon sleeping with someone, but not always.

 

I like the daoist style sleep too, if i’m on a hard surface thats the one i end up in. 

 

Sleeping while travelling is impossible, i dont get it!

 

Edit update:

 

Regarding how much sleep is healthy i can only say that it depends on the individual, their routine and lifestyle, age, geographic location, season, diet, physical and mental health status, environmental factors and overall salutogenic approach.

Some folks shouldnt sleep for more than 6 hours because it ruins their day with tiredness and malfunction and some cant deal with sleeping less than 8 hours. It seems that cicadian rythms average between 80 to 110 minutes in adults but again, gross statistic estimate. A handful of cycles is usually enough to reset a ”normal” days work but some studies (dont ask for citation because this is 3rd hand info) mean that backlogged sleeping is resolved by a single full nights sleep. Might not clear all effects of physical fatigue but the brain functions return to regular levels at least.

 

I think it’s important to study ones own diurnal cycles and circadian rythm to gather data, observe and estimate approaches and find out how much sleep is healthy.

The 8hrs a night thing is a recent invention afaik, it came about with the 9 to 5 workday and general homemaking working family ideals it seems. In agrarian sweden up to the late 19th century for example folks used to sleep in two shifts: where they got up around sunrise (in the bright seasons at least), did what  heavy work that was needed to be done in daylight, went to bed early for some 3-4 hours of sleep. Then they woke up in the wee hours to do less demanding work and crafts for a few hours, socialized a little and then got a few more hours (second sleep) to be rested enough for daytime work.

I cant swear by the accuracy of this since i only have one source from a documentary on public service radio but it was claimed that this was fairly standard in scandinavian countries well into the 19th century.

 

Used to be i had MASSIVE sleeping disorders, for years it was angstfest and no shuteye before six in the morning if going to bed at around 11 pm. ”Tossing and turning, emotions were strong” like the song says.

I still have waking nights, usually when i’m very excited about something or while picking up my physical exercise routine after slacking off for a month or so.

 

Much of my insomnia and related stress was a vicious cycle so when i finally realized that sleep was both a necessity and a commodity i could relax into having erratic patterns and subsequently they stabilized the more i was able to say ”well, i’ll have to make do on three hours today”. Sure those days are no fun but i get to catch up on sleep in the evening so it’s not that bad. Plenty water and upped food intake helps a lot.

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Jim D.]

I found that changing over to a memory foam mattress has significantly added to the quality of my life. Springs seem to wear out and cause back problems for me.