The no-enlightenment thread

[C T]

3 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

if to ask people do they suffer, the answer is no.

and

Mahayana tells that suffering needs to be developed.

 

teachings are how to get to suffering. 

But what we can see that middle way is abused like it will bring one to happiness, so the happiness is the focus. Like cart is put before the horse.

 

 

I'll politely point out the mistake that Mahayana promotes the notion that suffering needs to be developed. Where did you pick this up? 

 

The basis for the whole Buddhist path is predicated on the removal of ignorance, which is the root that leads to all kinds of delusions which in turn leads to suffering. The antidotes provided in the teachings of all the Yanas reverse this cycle, all the way back to the cessation (or blowing out) of these delusional patterns, which is where practice and experiencing the effects of practice plays a primary role. So the objective, one could say, is not to tackle suffering (dukkha) directly, but to remove those delusions (which are all dualistically primed) that separates one from one's real nature, which is primordially free from even the slightest hint of dukkha. 

[allinone]

18 minutes ago, C T said:

I'll politely point out the mistake that Mahayana promotes the notion that suffering needs to be developed. Where did you pick this up? 

 

same sutra where also told that for bodhisatvas the earth is flat.

Also picture what we see is upside down

 

This also reminds me of a picture(i think it was budhist book but not sure) of a tree what grow roots upwards and tree itself downwards.

[allinone]

also Chan master quote said something like dharma can be scientifically proved.

---

I think just the peole who wrote the books have but emphasis little bit differently and the destruction of past civilizations put most of us back to stoneage.

 

despite of having chips and computers, it is still freaking mineral age.

Edited November 30, 2017 by allinone

[Bud Jetsun]

When you can draw another breath, and it's not generating paralyzing muscle spasms to do it, this is enough to appreciate the state of Now one is experiencing. Each being remains free, limited only by it's creativity and choice in mindfulness to gratefully receive this moment as it comes, this alone is liberation.  When one lays down the burden of knowing, wisdom in the nature of reality becomes appreciated vs dissected.  

 

Worrying about what may or may not be appreciated in this one moment costs a being opportunity for appreciation of their own  moment, as we each only get our mindful choice in attention whether we use it to appreciate the real Now or continue to imagine oneself could have ever at any point been separated from it.  The moon is spectacular tonight, and the greatest light-show on earth happens globally free twice a day, the air is clean enough to support your life.  Every breath taken in grateful appreciation has always been an option available to every being during their one moment, it only takes laying down the aspects not choosing it, which turns out not to be worth it to pick-up again after a good taste of the alternative. 

 

If a being had a single running race to run, say a 100mile dirt trail mountain run, only against a time for themselves, not any other runner, and when the race was over, you died immediately, and if you don't run the race you also die immediately, and the race has no rules outside the realm of possible physics and thermodynamics and chemistry, it would  seem sensible to use the best shoes you could find and the best combination of nutrition and for race day some kind of powerful stimulant and pain killers and steroid and nootropic stack and eat and drink only the most ideal food and drink during the race no matter the taste, and leverage the best GPS tech or whatever else might be worth the weight to run with. 

 

Every choice in added experiential perspective adds new opportunities for appreciating the nature of whatever the text 'reality' may mean to a being. Limiting ones set of life experiences to be replaced with some type of orthodoxy to replace appreciation of whatever the nature of the real may be, which isn't important in any aspects which can be known, only experienced.  Seek enriching experiences and embrace them.

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

Pleas from a man choosing to tightly grip a burning coal may be soothed and concluded by appreciation of the nature of reality offered in the Diamond sutra.  

Quote

Chapter 7

Nothing Attained, Nothing Spoken

 

“Subhåti, what do you think? Has the Tathàgata attained Anuttarasaüyaksaübodhi? Has the Tathàgata spoken any Dharma?Ÿ Subhåti said, “As I understand what the Buddha has said, there is no concrete dharma called Anuttara saü- yaksaübodhi, and there is no concrete dharma which the Tathàgata has spoken. And why? The dharmas spoken by the Tathàgata cannot be grasped and cannot be spoken. They are neither dharmas nor no dharmas. And why? Unconditioned dharmas distinguish worthy sages.Ÿ Tathàgata is a Sanskrit word which translates as Thus Come One. It is the first of the Ten Titles of the Buddha. It means that the Buddha has realized the Way which is “ThusŸ and he has “comeŸ to accomplish Right Enlightenment. Has the Tathàgata attained Anuttarasaüyaksaü bodhi? Attained is defined in relation to “lost.Ÿ When something has been lost it may be attained. In the sentence one should replace the word “attainedŸ with the word “lostŸ; did the Tathàgata lose Anuttarasaüyaksaübodhi? If he did not lose it, then it is impossible for him to attain it again. That explanation should make the meaning clear. If one looks at both sides of the question one will truly understand. 103 Anuttarasaüyaksaübodhi is the Unsurpassed, Proper and Equal, Right Enlightenment. Has the Tathàgata spoken any Dharma? One can also turn it around and ask, “Has the Tathàgata not spoken Dharma?Ÿ If one says that he has not spoken Dharma, he has. If one says that he has, then why did he himself ask if he had or not? What should one reply at that point? The Buddha asked the question to test Subhåti’s wisdom. If he had praj¤à wisdom he would understand the principle. As to whether the Tathàgata had attained Anuttarasaüyaksaübodhi, Subhåti made no reply. He said, “My idea of what the Buddha has said is that there is no such thing as Anuttarasaüyaksaübodhi. There is no dharma by that name. There being none, what could be attained or what lost? Why is there no such dharma? Because there is no concrete dharma which the Tathàgata could speak. What the Tathàgata speaks of as Anuttarasaüyaksaübodhi is nothing more than a name. In actuality even the name is empty and without independent existence. Since it basically does not exist what could be attained? What could be lost? The teaching is spoken because there are people. The medicine is prescribed because there is sickness. The Dharma which the Tathàgata speaks cannot be grasped. It is like sweeping the floor when it is dusty. Who speaks? Who sweeps? The Dharma spoken is dharma-dust which the Tathà- gata sweeps away. It cannot be grasped. It is not dharma and not no dharma. What dharmas are there? There are none. 104 There isn’t anything at all. Therefore, that which distinguishes the worthy sages is unconditioned Dharma. Unconditioned Dharma is non-active and devoid of marks, characterized by its lack of marks. Basically the Buddhadharma does not need to be studied. No one is apart from it; everyone is capable of knowing it. When attachment is relinquished the Buddhadharma appears. If attachments are not relinquished the more one grasps the less one has. Before everything has been put down, nothing can be picked up. It is necessary to put attachments down with the left hand and with the right hand pick up real mark praj¤à. But to say one can pick up praj¤à is just a figure of speech. That is not to say there is actually something which can be grasped with the hands. If one could grasp all of empty space in one fist, then one could grasp hold of real mark praj¤à. If unable to grasp all of empty space with one swipe of the hand, one should make no futile attempt to clutch at real mark praj¤à. Real mark praj¤à exhausts empty space and pervades the Dharmarealm. All things are basically within real mark praj¤à. How could a firmer grip than that be had? It is simply because of attachments that the basic substance of the Dharmabody has not been attained, and one’s original face not recognized. The Sixth Patriarch said, Basically Bodhi has no tree, Nor any bright mirror stand. Basically there is not one thing. So where can dust alight? 105 Those who can truly put everything down and investigate the meaning of that, can attain genuine, originally existent real mark praj¤à. To say it is attained is just a figure of speech. There is absolutely nothing attained because nothing was ever lost.

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by Bud Jetsun

[allinone]

1 hour ago, Bud Jetsun said:

When you can draw another breath, and it's not generating paralyzing muscle spasms to do it, this is enough to appreciate the state of Now one is experiencing. Each being remains free, limited only by it's creativity and choice in mindfulness to gratefully receive this moment as it comes, this alone is liberation.  When one lays down the burden of knowing, wisdom in the nature of reality becomes appreciated vs dissected. 

 

1 hour ago, Bud Jetsun said:

Worrying about what may or may not be appreciated in this one moment costs a being opportunity for appreciation of their own  moment, as we each only get our mindful choice in attention whether we use it to appreciate the real Now or continue to imagine oneself could have ever at any point been separated from it.  The moon is spectacular tonight, and the greatest light-show on earth happens globally free twice a day, the air is clean enough to support your life.  Every breath taken in grateful appreciation has always been an option available to every being during their one moment, it only takes laying down the aspects not choosing it, which turns out not to be worth it to pick-up again after a good taste of the alternative. 

 

ok in other words now is the livestream of external objects. But the now is momentary at first, there is presteps in order to make it so that the objects you view actually feel like a livestream.

 

You need feeling of now, feeling originates from belly, you need cultivate to its full so you could do some more steps and eventually you can let the sense of now fall pass the swallow and watch external object as they are your own mind field and even that isn't permanent state.

 

Appreciation of being alive, is same as doing asmr to yourself, you reflect on certain sentence you evoke elements in body, it is needed so that the elements will get to the head, what then will go out of the body and then return and you will let pass the swallow by when you come aware of the moment of now spontaneously.

 

the key words are: momentary now, spontaneous now, livestream now.

 

Anyways if you get the livestream of now moment to belly, its done, you won't deal with that anymore for a while. There comes other thing to cultivate what are same important.

------

the emphasis you have is different from mine. You enforce view that you are walking on earth and enjoy things while alive and because nature have so many beautiful things..

[allinone]

2 hours ago, Bud Jetsun said:

Seek enriching experiences and embrace them.

 the object are doing asmr for you, liberating elements in you.

[allinone]

2 hours ago, Bud Jetsun said:

Pleas from a man choosing to tightly grip a burning coal may be soothed and concluded by appreciation of the nature of reality offered in the Diamond sutra.  

 

you think that science won't become like that what can't be understood directly by pointing out but actually need have human mind at minimum to mediate the knowledge?

[allinone]

18 hours ago, C T said:

The basis for the whole Buddhist path is predicated on the removal of ignorance, which is the root that leads to all kinds of delusions which in turn leads to suffering. The antidotes provided in the teachings of all the Yanas reverse this cycle, all the way back to the cessation (or blowing out) of these delusional patterns, which is where practice and experiencing the effects of practice plays a primary role.

 

Mahayana is told to be second turn. As its after the first turn. You read the noble truths of a first turn. Second turn is when no fuel no effects while you still will have a lighter.

[C T]

The Yanas support each other. 

 

Dont know what you mean mentioning the lighter though. 

[allinone]

15 minutes ago, C T said:

The Yanas support each other. 

 

Dont know what you mean mentioning the lighter though. 

 

yanas support each other, but the approach is different. In mahayana you need conditions for enlightenment to arise. Firstly you need stop leaks, karma.

For the secret channel work you need special effort or affirmation.

[C T]

4 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

yanas support each other, but the approach is different. In mahayana you need conditions for enlightenment to arise. Firstly you need stop leaks, karma.

For the secret channel work you need special effort or affirmation.

 

Thats stating the obvious, except that its not different, but diverse approaches to practice, leading to the same fruition, that makes Buddhism quite unique. Fundamentally, the approaches are all the same - there are no authentic Buddhist schools that deny the Four Noble Truths & the Eightfold Path, and the necessity to take refuge in the 3 Jewels if one wants to proceed with the path of practice successfully. 

 

Once a practitioner brings the Dharma to life, through which identifying habit patterns that are unhealthy (those that hinders spiritual evolution) takes precedence, that is in effect taking action to stop leaks. In other words, there's no necessity to root out past karma in the process, but to build new habits that either cuts new karmic flows or at least reduce the impact somewhat. 

[allinone]

50 minutes ago, C T said:

Once a practitioner brings the Dharma to life, through which identifying habit patterns that are unhealthy (those that hinders spiritual evolution) takes precedence, that is in effect taking action to stop leaks. In other words, there's no necessity to root out past karma in the process, but to build new habits that either cuts new karmic flows or at least reduce the impact somewhat. 

 

ok, you tell it for years, it works as asmr, it finally dawn upon me, i got a sense. Its to prevent me to start a fight based on from a unlived emotion, so i finally got that emotion before i entered the action.  

[Mudfoot]

19 hours ago, allinone said:

 

This also reminds me of a picture(i think it was budhist book but not sure) of a tree what grow roots upwards and tree itself downwards.

Kundalini Tantra, downloadable,  explains that one. 

[joeblast]

On 11/29/2017 at 10:27 PM, Gerard said:

 

Indeed....BUT with reservations:

 

 

 

Let's start rebuilding the new human. From the ground up (a strong root all the way down to Hell).

 

PART 1. How to Asian Squat + Training routine 1 + Training routine 2

 

Do this every day as long as you like and as often as you like, anytime, anywhere.

 

Drill 1

Drill 2

 

 

PART 2 (to be continued).

 

 

 

ah, the simple straightforward application of fundamentals.  the only hard part is diligence

 

train something sincerely with the awareness fully engaged in the activity with frequent enough periodicity, one cant help but realize the fruits before too long!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(well...provided one's methods are sound, of course )

[Gerard]

Yes the fundamentals —> The magic cure

 

For the Buddha —-> sit still next to a tree and let go!

 

For the rest of us —-> A hell of a lot more than that. 

 

Happy circle walking and Asian squats even in your dreams.

[Bud Jetsun]

21 minutes ago, Gerard said:

Yes the fundamentals —> The magic cure

 

For the Buddha —-> sit still next to a tree and let go!

 

For the rest of us —-> A hell of a lot more than that. 

 

Happy circle walking and Asian squats even in your dreams.

 

 

Body and Mind was given agility and balance to do more than walk in circles and sit.  A being builds no merit, and experiences no development through the act of walking in circles or sitting alone, it happens only when they choose to experience the real and hence begin living the Dao. This choice requires no prerequisites, and has no other path to occurring than mindfully choosing it in this one infinitesimal moment composing that whole of the real. 

 

The Buddha had everything he needed before he sat down under the tree and so does every being. 

 

Beings remain firmly locked into their egos fantasy illusion of the non-real for as long as they choose to imagine the real of their moment is something always out of reach. 

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud

Edited December 1, 2017 by Bud Jetsun

[ljazztrumpet]

6 hours ago, Bud Jetsun said:

Beings remain firmly locked into their egos fantasy illusion of the non-real for as long as they choose to imagine the real of their moment is something always out of reach. 

 

In my own experiences and observations I feel that no psychologically healthy, sane person is going to willfully choose to find 'the real of the moment'. It simply is too difficult to continue to choose this. Life has to, and does, force people sooner or later to find the kingdom of heaven within. 

 

An analogy I like to think of is the difference between lifting weights by yourself, or with another friend. When you are lifting with your friend, you're always going to be able to get a couple of extra reps out. You have someone physically spotting you and mentally encouraging you that you can do this. There are just certain things the physical body/mind won't undertake on it's own. You may think you are going to failure when lifting by yourself but when you are with your friend, you see you were capable of even more than you could of done by yourself. Granted, this weightlifting practice is something you choose to do because you want to push yourself. With Life forcing you, it's way more uncomfortable! 

 

The most prolific spiritual healer I am aware of knew about this and spoke of it. He understood why people wouldn't give up certain 'egoic securities' - even if it meant healing. Of course he still did his best to encourage them to, but he knew the deal. 

 

Whenever I talk about this, I am always hoping someone will chime in and say that there is a better way. That it doesn't have to be like this. But I've yet to get another satisfactory, practical, working answer to this situation. 

[Cheshire Cat]

What's the "real of the moment "?

 

[ljazztrumpet]

6 minutes ago, Cheshire Cat said:

What's the "real of the moment "?

 

I was taking Bud's reference to mean seeking the kingdom of heaven within.. Realizing non-separation and all that 'clap-trap'

[Bud Jetsun]

6 hours ago, ljazztrumpet said:

In my own experiences and observations I feel that no psychologically healthy, sane person is going to willfully choose to find 'the real of the moment'. It simply is too difficult to continue to choose this. Life has to, and does, force people sooner or later to find the kingdom of heaven within. 

 

An analogy I like to think of is the difference between lifting weights by yourself, or with another friend. When you are lifting with your friend, you're always going to be able to get a couple of extra reps out. You have someone physically spotting you and mentally encouraging you that you can do this. There are just certain things the physical body/mind won't undertake on it's own. You may think you are going to failure when lifting by yourself but when you are with your friend, you see you were capable of even more than you could of done by yourself. Granted, this weightlifting practice is something you choose to do because you want to push yourself. With Life forcing you, it's way more uncomfortable! 

 

The most prolific spiritual healer I am aware of knew about this and spoke of it. He understood why people wouldn't give up certain 'egoic securities' - even if it meant healing. Of course he still did his best to encourage them to, but he knew the deal. 

 

Whenever I talk about this, I am always hoping someone will chime in and say that there is a better way. That it doesn't have to be like this. But I've yet to get another satisfactory, practical, working answer to this situation. 

 

 

 

One is free to imagine and hence perceive experiencing all the artificially self imposed limits they wish on themselves.  

Yet it will remain singularly their own choice alone to self-impose them, and has always been optional to conclude if a being wishes to express compassion to themselves. 

 

It becomes effortless the moment one realizes they only need to do it for a single moment.  Imagining you're doing it for tomorrow ahead of this moment is when you trade the real and hence enter struggle in pointless self-delusion fantasy waiting for 'tomorrow' to never occur. 

 

A being choosing to appreciate the real and not the constructed, along with realization why there never was something that could be known is the laying down of delusion and alignment of perspective with wisdom. 

 

Every being is capable of achieving it Now through living the basics and choosing unbreakable mindful commitment.

 

Some choices are instantly their own best reward in doing.  It does not require adding any type of dogma or labels or ritual or chanting, this merely requires laying down all things which are not appreciation of Now.  

 

If an activity inspires the being to decide to choose to appreciate now it's a wonderful blessing.  Life is short, and direct experiential Buddha-mind appreciators were not found in any temples all over Asia or the USA after visiting many. Someones previous path or method which was right for that being who made it alone.  Orthodox or organized and labeled dogmas are all built upon a foundation which if followed/mimicked is at best genuinely living an impostor role playing exercise. 

 

Compassion and Love both are not possessions one may store up in a drawer or cling to as some fantasy of what may have been or yet will be.   They exist only in ones choice to live them in Now through living mindful choice in thought/speech/action. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[allinone]

1 hour ago, Bud Jetsun said:

One is free to imagine and hence perceive experiencing all the artificially self imposed limits they wish on themselves.  

 

im sure you can tell it even more tears in eyes. And i'm sure i can get even more pissed off. But thanks to limits, i did reach climax and felt a sensation. So i can't get pissed off for a while.

[allinone]

15 hours ago, Gerard said:

Yes the fundamentals —> The magic cure

 

For the Buddha —-> sit still next to a tree and let go!

 

For the rest of us —-> A hell of a lot more than that. 

 

Happy circle walking and Asian squats even in your dreams.

 

you were a great help today, but too bad you don't know it yourself. I reached my balls much easier today thanks to years of practice.

[ljazztrumpet]

Hey Buddy Bud Budster of the Jetsun clan...Thanks for your thoughtful reply and the clarity.

1 hour ago, Bud Jetsun said:

One is free to imagine and hence perceive experiencing all the artificially self imposed limits they wish on themselves.  

Yet it will remain singularly their own choice alone to self-impose them, and has always been optional to conclude if a being wishes to express compassion to themselves. 

Are they free to imagine that? Take someone who is raised in a very bad environment around hostile people - perhaps in a war zone. Do they have the same freedom to imagine as someone brought up with wiser/kinder parents in a much better environment? My point is, at this level, we are products of our conditioning. There is no true free will.

 

Don't get me wrong dad..dad..daddy-O... Every second I definitely feel like I'm choosing but when I sit down to meditate about it, I see that I never made a choice. I am just responding to all my past conditioning. Just like everyone else. The advantage to this is that it becomes very hard to judge anyone, because you see everyone is doing the best they can at the time.

1 hour ago, Bud Jetsun said:

It becomes effortless the moment one realizes they only need to do it for a single moment.  Imagining you're doing it for tomorrow ahead of this moment is when you trade the real and hence enter struggle in pointless self-delusion fantasy waiting for 'tomorrow' to never occur. 

 

A being choosing to appreciate the real and not the constructed, along with realization why there never was something that could be known is the laying down of delusion and alignment of perspective with wisdom. 

 

Every being is capable of achieving it Now through living the basics and choosing unbreakable mindful commitment.

 

Some choices are instantly their own best reward in doing.  It does not require adding any type of dogma or labels or ritual or chanting, this merely requires laying down all things which are not appreciation of Now.  

 

If an activity inspires the being to decide to choose to appreciate now it's a wonderful blessing.  Life is short, and direct experiential Buddha-mind appreciators were not found in any temples all over Asia or the USA after visiting many. Someones previous path or method which was right for that being who made it alone.  Orthodox or organized and labeled dogmas are all built upon a foundation which if followed/mimicked is at best genuinely living an impostor role playing exercise. 

Ok, back to thinking I have free will (which is really easy!). Yes, good stuff..I think it all comes down to practice. I like what you are saying about organized and labeled dogmas. Each of us is like a snowflake, so it will be unique to each of us. But there seems to be certain qualities that, when developed, cause more wisdom, love, and compassion to develop. I've talked about, in other threads, certain practices that raise one's love consciousness. This, I find, puts us in a state where we are able to be more mindful. Where we are in a more receptive and 'stronger' state so we can put unbreakable mindful commitment more into practice. Where we are more apt to choose activities that cause us to appreciate the now. And, say, cultivating more love for everyone is such a practice. The few very effective spiritual healers talked about this. The wonderful practice of 'energetic hugging' that some of you on this board do is one I am really digging. It's taking things to a new level for me - especially getting used to doing it with other male energy is quite revealing for me and rewarding. 

1 hour ago, Bud Jetsun said:

 

Compassion and Love both are not possessions one may store up in a drawer or cling to as some fantasy of what may have been or yet will be.   They exist only in ones choice to live them in Now through living mindful choice in thought/speech/action. 

 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Very nice Bud.. I think I do feel love and compassion is something I can 'build up'. Of course the very nature of love and compassion is not to store it (to save it for a rainy day..ha!;-) but my own current perception is that I am building it up within myself through practice.

 

Ok the buddiest buddy Bud...stay groovy my man

 

[ljazztrumpet]

28 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

im sure you can tell it even more tears in eyes. And i'm sure i can get even more pissed off. But thanks to limits, i did reach climax and felt a sensation. So i can't get pissed off for a while.

Hey allinone, just curious if you care to share. What part of the world are you from? In my line of work, I get to meet people from all over the world, and knowing where someone is from can help me interact/communicate with them. I am from New York in the USA and my first (and only right now) word language is english. 

[ljazztrumpet]

1 hour ago, Bud Jetsun said:

 

A being choosing to appreciate the real and not the constructed, along with realization why there never was something that could be known is the laying down of delusion and alignment of perspective with wisdom. 

 

Ah yes, the surrender to the 'I don't know' is a big one. 3rd step of the AA/NA style programs.. Very powerful...