The no-enlightenment thread

[doc benway]

On 11/29/2017 at 0:22 AM, Gerard said:

It's absurd to read claims of this nature especially in this day and age, particularly coming from lay practitioners.

Such a loaded topic. I think the intent of the OP and title of the thread contain valuable advice. I have some thoughts I'd like to share.

 

It's rare to come across 2 people who agree on the definition of enlightenment, let alone have a meaningful discussion about it in a heterogenous group of practitioners. That said, I can never fully know the experience(s) or level of attainment of anyone other than myself so I see little value in judging what others have achieved or where they are at. I certainly do judge, I try to be aware of that, and we certainly can tell a difference between those who talk the talk and those who walk the walk to some degree. Finally, we have certain expectations and assumptions regarding monastics. It's important to remember they're just people like us. Some have profound realization, others are sexual predators. We see a monk sitting in the 5 point posture or louts and automatically assume they are in deep meditation. They may be and they may well be thinking about football, sex, or food, or half asleep, no way to know. Anyone can have a profound experience of the nature of mind, very few are capable of integrating that into every waking, dreaming, sleeping, and dying moment, lay or monastic. I don't really see enlightenment as a destination or goal, more a process and direction that can be supportive of a fulfilling and meaningful life and death.

 

 

On 11/29/2017 at 0:22 AM, Gerard said:

 

Gautama Buddha was officially the first, he almost died in the quest and that was 2,500 years ago. Imagine today, one probably has to nearly die close to a 1,000 times to reach that mental state.

Only officially the first according to Buddhists. The Bönpo lineage of enlightened masters goes back earlier. If we open up our definitions a bit, we can see that there have been many realized masters in many traditions that go back to the beginnings of human experience - just my personal preference. To postulate that whatever we are pointing at as enlightenment is restricted to a narrow, Buddhist-only definition doesn't work for me. From the sutric and tantric perspectives, there is a state to be reached and the effort required is enormous. From the dzogchen perspective, the state is already here and now in every moment, reaching that state is quite literally "effort-less." 

 

 

On 11/29/2017 at 0:22 AM, Gerard said:

Less talk about enlightenment and more about hard work, healing practices, and being a good and moral person.

Very, very valuable advice.

 

While I'm aware of my tendency to by contrary and critical, I'd like to over an alternative perspective.

I try to be a bit careful on considering my spiritual practices as hard work. This already sets up an aversion, a challenge, an expectation of difficulty and unpleasantness. It creates a dynamic where I may tend to punish or think less of myself if I don't meet a certain level of effort. That can be very discouraging. Furthermore, my own practice involves non-practice: resting rather than doing, noticing the one exerting effort and letting that one rest, and so on. So this point is important for me, maybe not so much depending on your specific practice. While it certainly can be hard and feel like work, the choice of different words can change my relationship to my practice. We can call it joyful practice, healing practice (that's a good one), skillful living, resting in our true nature, embracing the divine, whatever... so many positive and supportive options. 

[allinone]

3 hours ago, ljazztrumpet said:

Hey allinone, just curious if you care to share. What part of the world are you from? In my line of work, I get to meet people from all over the world, and knowing where someone is from can help me interact/communicate with them. I am from New York in the USA and my first (and only right now) word language is english. 

 

Guess its now time to start learning to interact with people you don't know edit where they are from.

Edited December 2, 2017 by allinone

[3bob]

"my yoke is easy" Jesus

 

"You Will Know Them by Their Fruits. “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. ¹⁶ You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? ¹⁷  Matthew 7:15 - (NKJV)....

 

[Cheshire Cat]

[ljazztrumpet]

2 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

Praise Jesus!! Jesus is Lord!! Hallelujah!! Thank you Jesus!! Thank you Jesus!! Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner.

 

[ljazztrumpet]

3 hours ago, allinone said:

 

Guess its now time to start learning to interact with people you don't know edit where they are from.

Actually allinone, I was curious about your language history. How many languages do you speak? What is your first language? Just helps me to interact better with people.

[ljazztrumpet]

Gospodi pomilui. You guys ever check out Ostrov? One of my all time favorites:

 

 

[allinone]

13 minutes ago, ljazztrumpet said:

Actually allinone, I was curious about your language history. How many languages do you speak? What is your first language? Just helps me to interact better with people.

 

If i am going to tell you what language i speak originally then by doing that i would also tell what my country is. Also i skip the question how many languages i speak.

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, ljazztrumpet said:

Actually allinone, I was curious about your language history. How many languages do you speak? What is your first language? Just helps me to interact better with people.

 

 

I tried that a while back,  he won’t say, jus gave a  confused and cryptic answer.

 I suspect it is English.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Nungali

[Gerard]

steve,

 

Thanks for keeping it civil.

 

About enlightenment, really means finishing the journey we all started aeons ago. In the meantime ‘enjoy’ THIS step journey, you know what I mean. 

 

About our true nature, it took me years of practice to figure it out, I hope you have already —->

 

The almighty universe in a drop.

 

This morning 100% full moon, December in Australia, Wood phase peaks now. Walking the circle at 5am next to a bunch of sub-tropical trees, all I could hear is birds, no thinking mind only stepping and suddenly in saw Hell and Heaven realms in succession and I though how easy is to be reborn in any of them at the time of physical death according to the quality of karma/kamma. In an instant you can land anywhere: Human here or in any other universe, dog, bird, snake, goblin, fairy, ghost, hell being, peerless deva, etc. It’s all within us. 

 

So the question I ask again:

 

What is really a human being?

 

To me this was one of the most important accomplishments of my practice. And I have to acknowledge the role that the noble art of Bagua in that regard. Of course there is a lot more to that but a meaningful practice that really suits the practitioner makes a huge difference; it’s pointless doing something one doesn’t like and/or provides little or no benefit.

 

Good luck!

 

 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Gerard

[zerostao]

Is this a Buddhist thread? I don't see any bums claiming to be Enlightened on a level of Buddha. I look at a big E type of enlightenment and some little e types. There are bums who do attain the little e’s, imo. Maybe Buddha attained a one in five billion level of Enlightenment, and perhaps there is a one in 5 million, one if 50,000, one in five thousand, one in fifty...At Delphi, there were deities, oracles (Pythia), and Gaia herself. Plutarch wrote about the meaning of E at Delphi, on the temple is inscribed a large E. The command of the gods "Look into yourself, know yourself, keep to yourself; bring back your mind and your will, which are spending themselves elsewhere, into themselves; you are running out, you are scattering yourself; concentrate yourself, resist yourself;" or to be pithy, "Know thyself." There could be a level of enlightenment that is one of one that is worth attaining.

 

[Mudfoot]

On 2017-12-01 at 11:29 PM, Gerard said:

 

For the Buddha —-> sit still next to a tree and let go!

Or: Living a protected life. Being shocked when facing sickness, old age, and death. 

Leaving everything in a desperate quest to understand and solve this. 

Five years of aescetic practices, building up energy, frustration and doubt. 

Sitting next to a tree and let go. 

Sounds like hard work. 

 

Which differs from gulping down a latte and flopping my ass down on the ground for half an hour a day 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Mudfoot
Added sentence

[ljazztrumpet]

8 hours ago, allinone said:

 

If i am going to tell you what language i speak originally then by doing that i would also tell what my country is. Also i skip the question how many languages i speak.

Ok allinone, that's cool. I can dig it. No problem. How about this? Can you list all the languages you don't speak? 

[ljazztrumpet]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

I tried that a while back,  he won’t say, jus gave a  confused and cryptic answer.

 I suspect it is English.

I am 90% sure it's Russian!

[ljazztrumpet]

31 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Or: Living a protected life. Being shocked when facing sickness, old age, and death. 

Leaving everything in a desperate quest to understand and solve this. 

Five years of aescetic practices, building up energy, frustration and doubt. 

Sitting next to a tree and let go. 

Sounds like hard work. 

Sometimes, at some point in one lifetime or another, Life forces you to do some form of this!

33 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Which differs from gulping down a latte and flopping my ass down on the ground for half an hour a day 

I remember reading that there are certain types of monks who use caffeine to help them with their long meditation sessions to not fall asleep. Some of those Buddhist monasteries may look very simple and austere from the outside, but meanwhile they have their own Starbucks hidden somewhere deep in the enclosure!

[C T]

Lots of Buddhist novice monks nowadays spend huge amounts of time on FB, playing football, and watching netflix. Times have changed. 

[3bob]

12 hours ago, zerostao said:

Is this a Buddhist thread? I don't see any bums claiming to be Enlightened on a level of Buddha. I look at a big E type of enlightenment and some little e types. There are bums who do attain the little e’s, imo. Maybe Buddha attained a one in five billion level of Enlightenment, and perhaps there is a one in 5 million, one if 50,000, one in five thousand, one in fifty...At Delphi, there were deities, oracles (Pythia), and Gaia herself. Plutarch wrote about the meaning of E at Delphi, on the temple is inscribed a large E. The command of the gods "Look into yourself, know yourself, keep to yourself; bring back your mind and your will, which are spending themselves elsewhere, into themselves; you are running out, you are scattering yourself; concentrate yourself, resist yourself;" or to be pithy, "Know thyself." There could be a level of enlightenment that is one of one that is worth attaining.

 

 

 

 

this thread is in the general* section so obviously not in or of the Buddhist sub-forum.  As for the rest, a "maybe" and who knows anything for sure per such speculations...

 

*general section:  which can be like a "wild, wild west" free-for-all.

 

As for the big E: I'd venture its as simple as pie and plain as day so to speak, thus not of mind nor caught in ten thousand volumes of text or in doing a million years of methods although I would not deny any of their own along such lines.

Edited December 3, 2017 by 3bob

[ljazztrumpet]

1 hour ago, 3bob said:

*general section:  which can be like a "wild, wild west" free-for-all.

 

Oh Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ! Lord and Savior! And..and..and..spirits..save me! Take me to the light! Oh my God! I see demons! I see demons a'coming!!

 

 

[Gerard]

2. Run a LV/GB flush at the end of spring only when you feel it is the time for it. 

 

The thiking animal years are the ones that work for me. 2017 year of Fire Rooster asked me to do this flush again. 2013 year of the Water Snake I accidentally opened the GB channel running on the left side of my head with very painful consequences —-> shingles episode. I’m very grateful for that experience because the meridian was blocked until that year since childhood —-> start of the brainwashing we are all subjected to at school.

 

This morning:

 

1. First toilet run —> nothing

2. Second run —-> 7 stones

3. Third run —> 1 stone

4. Fourth run —-> 4 stones

 

This is the 2nd year I have done this flush (first time in 2009, year of the Earth Ox) and not too bad considering that back then it was the first time in my life I did this kind of Yang flush (unlike Chinese herbs which is Yin and which I found less effective for dissolving and flushing the stones, thanks to the ancient herbalists who created this amazing method —-> http://www.ener-chi.com/history-of-the-liver-and-gallbladder-flush/ ), I ended up running down the toilet nearly 100 stones. 

 

Our LVs are extremely sensitive organs. No wonder we produce those stones. But this is a damp-heat syndrome so some people may never encounter this problem. People living in tropical and sub-tropical areas are more prone to this problem especially in a country like Australia which is very Yang. Gallbladder removal by surgery is a common Western medical procedure here. 

 

I started a week ago by taking 100% pure apple juice, one glass per day and then on:

 

1. Day 6 —-> 6pm, one tablespoon of Epsom salts dissolved in warm water. At 8pm second tablespoon. At 10pm 1/2 cup of extra virgin olive oil + half a glass of grapefruit juice.

 

2. Day 7. 3am practice as Wood/LV is active at this time until 6am

and took the 3rd tablespoon of salts before starting.  At 6am took the last round of salts. 10 min later the first toilet run and then the rest. Ah! those salts are hard to swallow but the combination of citrus, oil and salts work like a charm!

 

 

 

Edit: I just had to run to the toilet once again and this time many small stones. I didn’t count them but around 20 or so. This run was done approx. 4 h after the last one.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Gerard

[Gerard]

How do I feel after doing this flush? 

 

Light. Relieved. Not hungry at all but with plenty of energy.

 

So, I’ll start a fast to further detoxify my system and keep taking Chinese herbs and Puerh tea to help purge toxins from both intestines and the bloodstream. 

 

How long? Who knows. I’ll try one month and see how it goes.

 

3. Fasting. The Fire Chicken won’t settle for peanuts! Thank you wonderful ‘showy’ animal.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Gerard

[Gerard]

Alternative LV & GB flush method that doesn’t require taking Epsom salts:

 

http://raiseyourvibration.com/quick-gentle-liver-cleanse-without-the-epsom-salts-by-sabrina-reber/

 

Will do this one from now on.

 

 

[dawei]

On 12/5/2017 at 5:16 AM, Gerard said:

Alternative LV & GB flush method that doesn’t require taking Epsom salts:

 

http://raiseyourvibration.com/quick-gentle-liver-cleanse-without-the-epsom-salts-by-sabrina-reber/

 

Will do this one from now on.

 

Elsewhere you shared a liver cleanse.... and I have read of several but that one seems to make the most sense... now you want to eliminate Epsom salts?   Why?

 

Each part has a function.. Epsom salts function is to help flush stuff out of the intestines.  It is very effective.  Can you say why it is better without Epsom salts? 

[Gerard]

Yes I agree with you but in my particular case now I don’t feel the need for taking Epsom salts.

 

I am healthy, eat 1-2 meals a day tailored to my needs and geographical location. The damp-pattern I have was caused by lust and living in SE direction Southern Hemisphere + me being a Fire Horse. Work (no longer work) and eating non-mindfully after the last flush in 2009. 

 

The question is we are all different (Taoism —-> Ba Zi; Ayurveda —-> Doshas). For example some people do well with juice fasting like this young lady:

 

http://theglobalgirl.com/liver-flush-cleansing-detox-92-day-juice-feast-fast-detoxification-gallstones-stones-gallblader-epsom-salts-healthy-liver/

 

http://theglobalgirl.com/detox-tips-how-to-liver-gallbladder-flush-avocado-olive-oil-grapefruit-juice-epsom-salts/

 

I wouldn’t try that, fruit juices are not for me let alone raw fruit in large quantities. Only one piece after each meal. Definitively nothing chilled or straight out of the fridge. But this isn’t good in general  for anyone really.

 

When I attended Vipassana retreat in northern Thailand, I liked the food kindly cooked by Thai people working at the monastery. All prepared with local ingredients and the 5 flavours present in every meal followed by a delicious dessert made of local fruit something like the ones listed here:

 

http://m.food.ndtv.com/lists/10-best-indian-dessert-recipes-693522

 

Brown rice was served all the time. 

 

This is type of eating will never make you sick or fat, that’s a certainty.

 

Eat meat and dairy often and LV flushes will be needed sooner or later. Same goes with raw fruit and vegetables on a daily basis plus breads, pastas and all the processed food modern humanity consumes on a daily basis. People living more traditional lives are not as prone to developing damp and damp-heat due to poor or incorrect diets as well as eating fast and/or on the go or doing stuff like watching TV or playing with the computer,  smart phone, etc.

 

I’ll try without epsom salts next time.

 

Good to start with the salts if someone is a beginner to LV flushes.

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Gerard

[joeblast]

the lady in that article mentioned that epsom salts were harsher, especially on the kd

[johndoe2012]

On 11/29/2017 at 6:22 AM, Gerard said:

It's absurd to read claims of this nature especially in this day and age, particularly coming from lay practitioners.

 

 

 

 

 

Gautama Buddha was officially the first, he almost died in the quest and that was 2,500 years ago. Imagine today, one probably has to nearly die close to a 1,000 times to reach that mental state.

 

Less talk about enlightenment and more about hard work, healing practices, and being a good and moral person.

 

No tree, it is said, can grow to heaven unless its roots reach down to hell (Carl Jung)

 

And deep to hell you got to go, brother, very, very deep.

 

"If you were a monk that wanted to achieve enlightenment and be revered as a “living Buddha,” self-mummification was your brutal option. Monks on this spiritual path would starve themselves for almost a decade, subsisting on water, seeds and nuts. Then, they’d be sealed inside the statue and ingest roots, pine bark and a toxic, tree sap-based tea for another 1,000 days — eating and breathing through a small tube. Eventually death would come, and monks mummified in this manner were said to have reached enlightenment."

 

X-Rays of Buddhist Statue Reveal Mummified Monk

 

And these new age bunch thought it is easy to reach enlightenment, yes I would dare to say:

 

1. Enlightenment of the EGO

2. DELUSION

 

Happy and hard work practice.

 

 

 

 

Stop torturing yourself.

 

This is religious non-sense.