What to add to Yin Jing tonic mix for transportation

[HoldorFold]

I've got He Shou Wu extract, Goji berry extract and Rehmannia extract. All Yin Jing tonics and I'm going to mix them together.

I've read somewhere that you want to add something yang in there to help the transportation around the body. Any ideas what that could be? I was thinking maybe powdered ginger.

[thelerner]

Don't know much about combining such things, but I do know Licorice is a classic 'transportation' add in to many formulas.   In some formulas so is regular old pepper.  

 

Hopefully some people with more experience will add there two cents.  Some combo's probably aren't good. 

[Gerard]

The idea is to protect the Earth (Stomach and Spleen). Btw:

 

http://www.cmd.gov.hk/html/eng/health_info/pamphlet/Adverse_Effects_of_Misusing_Herbal_Tonics.html

 

 

[Maddie]

This is a link to a formula that will be an example to answer your question. 

 

https://www.activeherb.com/shouwu/

[Michael Sternbach]

As a side remark, isn't it fascinating that the ancient Chinese bestowed us with beverages called Jing Tonics? It lends proof to Douglas Adams' statements in The Restaurant at the End of the Universe:

 

Quote

It is a curious fact, and one to which no one knows quite how much importance to attach, that something like 85% of all known worlds in the Galaxy, be they primitive or highly advanced, have invented a drink called jynnan tonnyx, or gee-N'N-T'N-ix, or jinond-o-nicks, or any one of a thousand or more variations on the same phonetic theme. The drinks themselves are not the same, and vary between the Sivolvian 'chinanto/mnigs' which is ordinary water served at slightly above room temperature, and the Gagrakackan 'tzjin-anthony-ks' which kill cows at a hundred paces; and in fact the one common factor between all of them, beyond the fact that the names sound the same, is that they were all invented and named before the worlds concerned made contact with any other worlds.

What can be made of this fact? It exists in total isolation. As far as any theory of structural linguistics is concerned it is right off the graph, and yet it persists. Old structural linguists get very angry when young structural linguists go on about it. Young structural linguists get deeply excited about it and stay up late at night convinced that they are very close to something of profound importance, and end up becoming old structural linguists before their time, getting very angry with the young ones. Structural linguistics is a bitterly divided and unhappy discipline, and a large number of its practitioners spend too many nights drowning their problems in Ouisghian Zodahs.

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Michael Sternbach

[Taomeow]

The best jing tonics transportation medium that is seldom considered in this capacity (except by those "in the know") because it has such a bum rap, due to the fact it is so easy to misuse, abuse, misunderstand and derive more harm than good from as a result, is alcohol.

[dawei]

For transportation, nothing compares to alcohol.

 

Yang alternatives:   Ginger or better, ginseng.   Korean ginseng if you can get it. 

 

 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

It doesn't sound like you took the advice I gave you back here:

 

On 10/11/2014 at 3:33 PM, HoldorFold said:

On 10/11/2014 at 3:12 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

You might want to get yourself a copy of:

 

Between Heaven and Earth

 

and do the self evaluation. Your problems sound like heat in the Liver/Gallbladder rising. It may be made worse by Yin deficiency. Liver/gallbladder heat is fairly common. There are herbal formulae that you can use or adding some to your food may be useful. The book has a nifty introduction to Chinese health food cooking.

 

Cool thanks, I'll check that out

 

Otherwise you wouldn't need to be asking this question.  There are problems to all of the answers that you have received, though none of them is really bad in general, but they may be bad in your specific case and without an understanding of that as a starting point one can end out causing problems down the road.

 

One of the strong points of the book that I recommend above Between Heaven and Earth, is its excellent evaluation questionnaire and further, overall it is a good introduction to basic Chinese herbalism, including an invaluable section on using Chinese herbs in cooking.

 

Just doing jing tonics without knowing what the situation with your organs is, and how to balance them out is asking for trouble in the long term.  The above book is a good place to start.  There is a lot of value to it for people interested in "energy cultivation" as way of laying a good foundation for successful practice, which means practice that is conducive to health and "energy" development, not "energy" imbalances leading to ill health which in turn is confused with spiritual progress.

 

It is so important that as I pursue the teaching project which I have envisioned here:

 

What, me teach? Ok, sure why not . . .

 

learning these basics will be an important part of the Chinese part of my curriculum.  I haven't written much beyond the thread in which I outline my intent, but you might want to pay attention to the project as it develops.

 

ZYD

[Gerard]

Your problems sound like heat in the Liver/Gallbladder rising. It may be made worse by Yin deficiency.

 

I haven’t read the original post but if this is correct then the OP should go seek an experienced herbalist’s diagnosis and treatment according to his current condition. Tonifying the KD and the LV/GB is incorrect.

 

Clear the fire and drain dampness first then —-> Tonify. The clearing and draining can take some time, especially dampness, 2-3 years.

 

During that time the OP should also work on the causes that have produced Liver Yang rising and damp-heat so they won’t occur again. This is not easy and it’s a lifetime of work.

 

That book is good but learning a method from a caring and highly experienced teacher is x 1,000 times better. A method will help you understand your body and mind and the connection between the two as well as heal yourself completely.

 

Good luck to the OP.

[dawei]

yes, that book is good.   If you want to clear something in less time than 2-3 years, seek help.  Some here can help.

 

Doesn't heat in liver/gb rising, manifest in a pressure area above the ears...  you can feel and trace that line of pressure. 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Let me give an example, drawn from my own personal experience, of what I mean here :

 

11 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

There is a lot of value to it for people interested in "energy cultivation" as way of laying a good foundation for successful practice, which means practice that is conducive to health and "energy" development, not "energy" imbalances leading to ill health which in turn is confused with spiritual progress.

 

I will try to be as brief as possible, while I started studying aspects of Chinese medicine back around 1970 this was mostly acupuncture and five element theory, there was almost nothing in English that dealt with Chinese Herbalism in a satisfactory way at the time, though I was convinced that the Chinese had to have a better knowledge of herbs than I was seeing in the books available then.

 

This situation started to change in the late eighties with the appearance of some excellent books on Chinese Herbs and on Chinese patent medicines, as well as some excellent books on the theory.  I used these to start with and had some very encouraging results with digestion and fatigue.  One problem that I did have at the time is a good example of what I mean by imbalances being confused with "spiritual progress".  In the early nineties I had developed what later became known as "restless leg syndrome", shaking in my legs accompanied by intense heat and feelings like electric shock going down what I already knew was the Liver Channel in both legs.  A lot of people coming to the Dao Bums would have interpreted this as "progress",  they would have asked something to the effect of "I have energy streaming down my legs, how to I get it into the MCO?".  I had learned enough to view this as possibly being Wind Heat in the Liver Channel which might have been the result of Liver Blood Deficiency.  I started taking some of the patent medicines that addressed the problems of Liver Wind and Liver Blood deficiency and within a few months the symptoms disappeared.  I was lucky that this Pathogenic Wind Heat was moving down the Liver Channel and not up the Gallbladder channel, where it would could easily cause problems, including manic episodes which people can confuse with "enlightenment" breakthroughs.  It is almost impossible to get people who experience this to realize that theses experiences have nothing to do with spiritual development, but are the result of imbalances, and actually an impediment to real progress.

 

In the years since then I have managed to stave off problems that were developing or which had already developed and would have gotten worse, so that just as I am about to leave my mid sixties for my late sixties I haven't had a cold or flu type episode for over tens years, where I used to get them an average of four times a year, and from having, what has been a big relief, literally as well as figuratively, problems with urinary function which make a lot of people my age miserable and were severe enough twenty years ago to be a problem, but are not a problem anymore and haven't been since about 2010.  These are just a couple of the advantages which I have gotten from learning how to use Chinese herbs, there are more.

 

The book I have recommended, Between Heaven and Earth, appeared in 1992 as I recall, and I am certain that I bought it then.  It didn't help me with these early successes, but its self-evaluation questionnaire was a real help for clearing up other things, and helped me organize my understanding better, and I certainly would have benefited from it earlier.

 

ZYD

[Taomeow]

13 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

 

There are problems to all of the answers that you have received

 

Not with mine there aren't.  I only answered the actual question -- what yang means of transportation can be used with jing tonics.  Never made a peep about anything else.  (Though I could, I surely could!  But I wouldn't! ) 

Edited December 1, 2017 by Taomeow

[HoldorFold]

Thanks for the replies, sounds like alcohol, ginger or ginseng could be a good addition. I'll try and experiment with all 3 to see how they compare.

 

As an aside, I just received some deer placenta capsules in the post and took one about an hour ago. It's insanely powerful, I could feel the effects start within minutes. It's a familiar feeling I get from he shou wu / goji berries etc., but feels 50x stronger.

I've also got some black ant powder that I'm going to try tomorrow to gauge the effects and then some sheep placenta arriving in a couple of weeks to see how it compares with the deer. 
 

[HoldorFold]

18 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

It doesn't sound like you took the advice I gave you back here:

 

Ah yes, that was 3 years ago. I didn't get that book in the end.

I've been doing some qigong by Bruce Frantzis which has helped immensely and those issues were resolved quite some time ago now.

[Maddie]

Hello there, I wanted to give you a better answer than just an example, I've just not had time to do so until now. I am a licensed acupuncturist and traditional Chinese herbalist so thought I could help. 

   So as to your original question, yes most jing and yin tonics tend to either be cloying in the intestines, weaken the spleen or both, either way they can tend to back things up. The general approach in most traditional Chinese herbal formulas is to have a four function approach of the chief, deputy, assistant, and envoy herbs to make the formula well balanced, effective, and to counter any negative side effects and/or interactions. In a jing or yin tonic the assistant herb(s) are generally the ones chosen to counteract the spleen weakening, intestine cloying effects of the chief and deputy tonic herbs. Generally these are either spleen strengthening and/or downward draining herbs depending on the tonic herbs used. 

   So for example in Liu Wei Di Huang Wan the most common yin tonic formula, the main herb incorporated into the formula to offset the cloying nature of Shu Di Huang is Ze Xie. Fu Ling is also included to strengthen the spleen and thus the digestive system as a whole. 

   In the formula Qi Bao Mei Ran Dan for example which the chief herb is He Shou Wu, the main herb to assist is again Fu Ling for its affects to strengthen the spleen, and counter the stagnating properties of the other tonic herbs.

   I had seen someone list ginger which is also a warming yang and spleen strengthening herb, and that would also be helpful. Ginseng also strengthens the digestive system (along with everything else) so could be useful as well. 

  The key points to remember are downward draining, and spleen strengthening. Hope that helps. 

[Gerard]

9 hours ago, dawei said:

If you want to clear something in less time than 2-3 years, seek help.

 

You cant unfortunately, not for a pattern that has been happening since childhood.

 

And the 2-3 years I’m talking about is from a highly experienced classically trained herbalist...otherwise you’ll never get rid of the problem since you’ll be dealing either with bad doctors or the ones that will milk out you like a fat cow (parasite doctors).

 

This obviously coupled with a serious practice, ie Baguaquan + seated meditation, Vipassana in a retreat environment.

 

 

[Gerard]

You think your condition has been cleared?

 

Do you have lust? Liver Yang rising

Do you get angry? Liver Yang rising

Do you have resentment against others? Liver Yang rising

 

And the list goes on.

 

This is what makes you a human. 

 

So what to do then? Herbs and needles are good but they won’t fix the root of the problem. For that you need to go a lot deeper.

 

Good luck and don’t rely on herbs as the ultimate cure  or you’ll be making rich the TCM industry.

 

 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Never made a peep about anything else.  (Though I could, I surely could! . . .) (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

You and me both Taomeow, and I have to agree that as an answer to the question as asked, your answer has a lot of merit.  Alcohol is a fascinating thing and one of its Western names, "Spirit of Wine", says some very important things about it.  Frankly I thought the problems began with the question, and that on one level or another all the suggestions had some merit, and I am sorry, and apologize to all if I did not make that clear in my post, but I was somewhat rushed and wished to focus on the more important topic:

 

19 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

they may be bad in your specific case and without an understanding of that as a starting point one can end out causing problems down the road.

 

To my mind the question that should have been asked is "Should I be taking a jing tonic?", and one important answer is "Not if you don't need one", followed by the counter question, "Why do you think you need one?", and an important consideration not even addressed is how their Liver is functioning from the TCM perspective, because especially in the case of men, if someone's Liver is overheated, you're just using your jing like radiator coolant in a car, and that is not good, because just adding jing to the mix, will not cool your Liver, and if you don't understand this, you shouldn't be fooling with jing tonics.

 

Now I am sure you understand all this Taomeow, but the world is full of people who don't, and there is a lot of misunderstanding as people make very superficial combinations of modern Western and traditional Chinese physiology and health practices, and this goes for Western "alternative" health ideas, as much as it does for mainstream medicine.  I would rather push for people to go for a deeper understanding of Chinese traditions and to apply them consistently, then a "buffet" of mix and match Chinese and Western health practices, and that was my intent in answering the way I did.

 

ZYD

[dawei]

42 minutes ago, Gerard said:

 

You cant unfortunately, not for a pattern that has been happening since childhood.

 

And the 2-3 years I’m talking about is from a highly experienced classically trained herbalist...otherwise you’ll never get rid of the problem since you’ll be dealing either with bad doctors or the ones that will milk out you like a fat cow (parasite doctors).

 

This obviously coupled with a serious practice, ie Baguaquan + seated meditation, Vipassana in a retreat environment.

 

 

 

We likely offer different modalities of healing.   

[Zhongyongdaoist]

1 hour ago, HoldorFold said:

Ah yes, that was 3 years ago. I didn't get that book in the end.

I've been doing some qigong by Bruce Frantzis which has helped immensely and those issues were resolved quite some time ago now.

 

I am glad to hear that your situation seems better to you now, and I hope that it really is better.  The fact that I remember you after three years indicates that I was rather concerned about what you were saying.

 

I still recommend that you get Between Heaven and Earth, it will give you a map to your state of health, which may seem fine to you know, but may have indications of organ imbalances that you have no idea of at this time and which could cause problems in the future.

 

This advice is good, but only scratches the surface:

 

50 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

Hello there, I wanted to give you a better answer than just an example, I've just not had time to do so until now. I am a licensed acupuncturist and traditional Chinese herbalist so thought I could help. 

   So as to your original question, yes most jing and yin tonics tend to either be cloying in the intestines, weaken the spleen or both, either way they can tend to back things up. The general approach in most traditional Chinese herbal formulas is to have a four function approach of the chief, deputy, assistant, and envoy herbs to make the formula well balanced, effective, and to counter any negative side effects and/or interactions. In a jing or yin tonic the assistant herb(s) are generally the ones chosen to counteract the spleen weakening, intestine cloying effects of the chief and deputy tonic herbs. Generally these are either spleen strengthening and/or downward draining herbs depending on the tonic herbs used. 

   So for example in Liu Wei Di Huang Wan the most common yin tonic formula, the main herb incorporated into the formula to offset the cloying nature of Shu Di Huang is Ze Xie. Fu Ling is also included to strengthen the spleen and thus the digestive system as a whole. 

   In the formula Qi Bao Mei Ran Dan for example which the chief herb is He Shou Wu, the main herb to assist is again Fu Ling for its affects to strengthen the spleen, and counter the stagnating properties of the other tonic herbs.

   I had seen someone list ginger which is also a warming yang and spleen strengthening herb, and that would also be helpful. Ginseng also strengthens the digestive system (along with everything else) so could be useful as well. 

  The key points to remember are downward draining, and spleen strengthening. Hope that helps. 

 

The book is a good introduction to a fascinating and very worthwhile study. 

 

What Gerard said here:

 

29 minutes ago, Gerard said:

So what to do then? Herbs and needles are good but they won’t fix the root of the problem. For that you need to go a lot deeper.

 

is also relevant, herbs as the herbs can only directly effect your post-natal jing, qi, and shen, and the most important work is that which accesses the innate "pre-birth" jing, qi, and shen and allows you to work with and unify the worlds of the the Hotu and the Loshu.  Here the inner essences of the herbs become important, but you can connect with them through their bodies if your awareness has been extended to the right levels.

 

ZYD

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

 

You and me both Taomeow, and I have to agree that as an answer to the question as asked, your answer has a lot of merit.  Alcohol is a fascinating thing and one of its Western names, "Spirit of Wine", says some very important things about it.  Frankly I thought the problems began with the question, and that on one level or another all the suggestions had some merit, and I am sorry, and apologize to all if I did not make that clear in my post, but I was somewhat rushed and wished to focus on the more important topic:

 

 

To my mind the question that should have been asked is "Should I be taking a jing tonic?", and one important answer is "Not if you don't need one", followed by the counter question, "Why do you think you need one?", and an important consideration not even addressed is how their Liver is functioning from the TCM perspective, because especially in the case of men, if someone's Liver is overheated, you're just using your jing like radiator coolant in a car, and that is not good, because just adding jing to the mix, will not cool your Liver, and if you don't understand this, you shouldn't be fooling with jing tonics.

 

Now I am sure you understand all this Taomeow, but the world is full of people who don't, and there is a lot of misunderstanding as people make very superficial combinations of modern Western and traditional Chinese physiology and health practices, and this goes for Western "alternative" health ideas, as much as it does for mainstream medicine.  I would rather push for people to go for a deeper understanding of Chinese traditions and to apply them consistently, then a "buffet" of mix and match Chinese and Western health practices, and that was my intent in answering the way I did.

 

ZYD

 

Oh, no need to apologize, ZYD, I understand -- my objections were more tongue-in-cheek and in real life would come complete with a mock indignant face -- "Excuse me?.."

 

"Between Heaven and Earth" has been sitting on my shelf for a long while, I'm sure its turn will come.  (Get in line y'all, unread books I meant to read, get in line!  I only have one pair of eyes and two competing brain hemispheres!)  

 

I've been studying TCM for some 18 years, in the early years with much intensity and dedication, and under professional guidance, but I nowhere near consider myself an expert because I lack a vast empirical pool to complement my vast theoretical but (relatively) modest hands-on exposure.  To put it simply, I'm not a practitioner who does nothing but this every day, for years, decades, seeing hundreds, thousands of people.  And I don't particularly trust anyone who's not a clinician.  Sheesh, with today's TCM education model that has been dragged kicking and screaming as close as they could drag it to the allopathic model, I don't trust that many clinicians either.  But don't let me hijack OP's thread...  

[Phoenix3]

On 11/30/2017 at 8:08 PM, Taomeow said:

The best jing tonics transportation medium that is seldom considered in this capacity (except by those "in the know") because it has such a bum rap, due to the fact it is so easy to misuse, abuse, misunderstand and derive more harm than good from as a result, is alcohol.

 

I thought alcohol drains you of Jing, and is therefore not to be drunk by Daoists? No wine, no sex (lust), no money, no anger (不酒不色不财不气). And what do you mean by transportation medium?

 

[Taomeow]

50 minutes ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

I thought alcohol drains you of Jing, and is therefore not to be drunk by Daoists? No wine, no sex (lust), no money, no anger (不酒不色不财不气). And what do you mean by transportation medium?

 

 

There's many kinds of taoists.  Some of the most famous ones have never been sober in their life -- e.g. Sun Wukong.  And the amount of jing he has is second only to the Jade Emperor's. 

 

There's taoist sects heavily influenced by other modalities, many of which don't support any manifestations of human aliveness, but original taoism is fully human.  Nothing is off limits, but balance, non-abuse and non-squandering are emphasized.  So it's not "no wine" as much as "no alcoholism," not "no sex" but "no stupid unhealthy sex," not "no money" but "no greed," not "no anger" but "no cruelty."  

 

A transportation medium is the carrier substance for your medicinals that is used to extract them from the herb and deliver them to the body, whether internally or externally.  Water is one, the most widely used in preparing medicinal infusions and decoctions.  Sometimes water is used to prepare a soup first, then the liquid is strained and used to extract the medicinal properties of an herb or inactivate its toxins (e.g., he shou wu is traditionally prepared in black bean soup, otherwise it's toxic.)  Vinegar, lye water, oil, milk, fresh and fermented juices, wine, hard liquor or pure alcohol are also used, and it takes expertise to know what extraction and delivery medium is best for what purposes.

 

Hard liquor is one of the most widely used substances for extraction and delivery of medicinals.  It also adds certain medicinal properties of its own, but one has to know indications and contraindications.  Sometimes medicinal liquids are concentrated by evaporation and made into powders or pills, which in their turn are taken with a prescribed transportation medium, water or wine or oil, etc..  The same formula may ask for different delivery systems depending on the condition.  E.g. yunnan baiyao, one of the formulas I always try to have on hand for any trauma, injury, dental visit, etc., is taken with wine if there's no bleeding, but if there is, then with water.   The reason is that many traditional herbal formulas are very smart.  Yunnan baiyao will improve circulation and blood supply to the injured site if taken with wine, but that's not the effect you want with bleeding.  Whereas taken with water, it stops the bleeding! -- very efficiently, even the most dangerous kinds, like bleeding into the brain caused by a stroke.

[HoldorFold]

14 hours ago, dmattwads said:

Hello there, I wanted to give you a better answer than just an example, I've just not had time to do so until now. I am a licensed acupuncturist and traditional Chinese herbalist so thought I could help. 

   So as to your original question, yes most jing and yin tonics tend to either be cloying in the intestines, weaken the spleen or both, either way they can tend to back things up. The general approach in most traditional Chinese herbal formulas is to have a four function approach of the chief, deputy, assistant, and envoy herbs to make the formula well balanced, effective, and to counter any negative side effects and/or interactions. In a jing or yin tonic the assistant herb(s) are generally the ones chosen to counteract the spleen weakening, intestine cloying effects of the chief and deputy tonic herbs. Generally these are either spleen strengthening and/or downward draining herbs depending on the tonic herbs used. 

   So for example in Liu Wei Di Huang Wan the most common yin tonic formula, the main herb incorporated into the formula to offset the cloying nature of Shu Di Huang is Ze Xie. Fu Ling is also included to strengthen the spleen and thus the digestive system as a whole. 

   In the formula Qi Bao Mei Ran Dan for example which the chief herb is He Shou Wu, the main herb to assist is again Fu Ling for its affects to strengthen the spleen, and counter the stagnating properties of the other tonic herbs.

   I had seen someone list ginger which is also a warming yang and spleen strengthening herb, and that would also be helpful. Ginseng also strengthens the digestive system (along with everything else) so could be useful as well. 

  The key points to remember are downward draining, and spleen strengthening. Hope that helps. 

 

 

Excellent advice, thanks very much. I like the sound of Fu Ling. 

The Yin Jing herbs I have are all 10:1 concentrated extractions of prepared He Shou Wu, prepared Rehmannia and Goji Berry.

Do you know what the recommended ratio of non-concentrated Fu Ling to the above herbs might be? I'll probably be taking about just 3 grams of the concentrated Jing herbs per day, consisting of 1 gram of each of the 3.

[phil]

@Phoenix3And please don't underestimate the power of your mind. Especially the power of your expectations. Your body reacts to every single thought and adapts to those underlying believes. If you think Alcohol and Sex is bad for you per se your body / subsystems (like endocrine- / nervous- / immune-system) will do everything to help you in supporting those thoughts.. 

My advice would be to let go of those fears and worries and concentrate on the other side, like focus on those unbelievable self-healing and regenerating powers your systems have if you let them. Know that there is an inexhaustible energy-source availabe the entire time for you, only in need of your allowance to let it flow through your system.

Doesn't mean to overdo things, but seek for balance, harmony and trust in yourself and the power of your mind. It is mind over matter, and some glasses of Alcohol or losses of semen won't negatively influence you if you are able to do it in a natural, un-worrying way. 

First way is always to find a peaceful state, harmony with yourself. Then, if you are in that state, your actions will be productive/balancing/enriching. But first, seek that state, as actions coming from a troubled place can't carry you out of it. 

Edited December 2, 2017 by phil