What to add to Yin Jing tonic mix for transportation

[Maddie]

Generally you should want to make it a ration of about 30-40% of Fu Ling to your chief and deputy tonic herbs. I would also recommend and equal amount of Gan Cao (licorice root) because it harmonizes the other herbs to work together well and it also strengthens the spleen as well. 

[HoldorFold]

2 hours ago, dmattwads said:

Generally you should want to make it a ration of about 30-40% of Fu Ling to your chief and deputy tonic herbs. I would also recommend and equal amount of Gan Cao (licorice root) because it harmonizes the other herbs to work together well and it also strengthens the spleen as well. 

 

Cheers, I'll definitely try and get some Fu Ling and perhaps research some other herbs for the spleen/draining although I'd prefer to stay away from licorice root due to the negative effect is has on testosterone.

[Aetherous]

Taking herbs without having a complete education in that form of herbalism and diagnosis creates imbalances in the body.

That's really what it boils down to. 

This is not medical advice, but for myself, I'd just take shen qi wan for increasing jing (which is the original version of liu wei di huang wan). That's not to say I'm advising anyone else do this...I advise people to work with a Chinese Medicine practitioner only. See the first sentence of this post again.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Aetherous

[Taomeow]

41 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

Taking herbs without having a complete education in that form of herbalism and diagnosis creates imbalances in the body.

That's really what it boils down to. 

This is not medical advice, but for myself, I'd just take shen qi wan for increasing jing (which is the original version of liu wei di huang wan). That's not to say I'm advising anyone else do this...I advise people to work with a Chinese Medicine practitioner only. See the first sentence of this post again.

 

I own "Chinese Herbal Medicine Materia Medica" by Bensky/Kaptchuk, among other books on the subject, it's seven hundred pages thick, and I've read it cover to cover, over the years.  What you say applies to many herbs and herbal formulas, but not all -- sometimes you can safely go with tradition (never with commercial rap).  Tradition says -- ginseng benefits older people (the older you are, the more benefits you get), but can create imbalances in younger people.  Tradition says --  dong quai is good for most women after menopause, but can create imbalances in women of child-bearing age.  Tradition says -- astragalus or deer antler is good to take in autumn/winter, not in sprig/summer.  Tradition says -- licorice and aged mandarin peel and cinnamon "harmonize the formula," making adverse effects less likely.  And so on.   There's many things to know, and a "complete education" is a pipe dream. 

 

But most herbs are nowhere near as dangerous as even an aspirin, to say nothing of heavier pharmaceuticals.  Few have side effects that are not transient, exceedingly few have adverse effects that are irreversible (can't even think of one, though I'm sure they exist), and in most cases, the worst thing that can happen from "unauthorized" but intelligent use of herbal remedies is a waste of money.  So I would say my position on those cautions and warnings is, yeah, sure, if in general you're living your life very very cautiously, that's part of where you may want to exercise caution.  But herbal adventures are not among the most dangerous endeavors.  Now with pharmaceuticals, it's a different story...  I wouldn't equate the level of emphatic "think before you leap" of the two.  

[Aetherous]

9 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

There's many things to know, and a "complete education" is a pipe dream. 

 

A lot of those traditional things you listed are questionable.

The complete education really includes diagnosis and experience with patients, in addition to the herbal portion. It's unavoidable - only practitioners can practice effectively. DIY is harmful. Herbs are not safe...food is safe.

I agree that pharmaceuticals are more harmful than herbs, in general.

[Taomeow]

17 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

A lot of those traditional things you listed are questionable.

The complete education really includes diagnosis and experience with patients, in addition to the herbal portion. It's unavoidable - only practitioners can practice effectively. DIY is harmful. Herbs are not safe...food is safe.

I agree that pharmaceuticals are more harmful than herbs, in general.

 

Questionable, questioned by my inquiry, found of complete merit.  I can explain if you want to question any of my assertions. 

 

The second paragraph -- yes, I said it earlier that only some clinicians are trustworthy, and hardly anyone who isn't.  Ted Kaptchuk whose co-authored translation and presentation I mentioned was the first American to practice Chinese herbal medicine in China.  He is a clinician I trust.

 

"Herbs are not safe, food is safe" -- if you can safely separate the two.  Can you?  Most food items you can buy today contain drugs.   Read the fine print, then research what it is you're eating as food.  I did.  Whereas many medicinal herbs are also foods where they come from.  I use at least three dozen that are both.

 

Agree with your agreement on the third. 

 

   

[Aetherous]

30 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Questionable, questioned by my inquiry, found of complete merit.  I can explain if you want to question any of my assertions. 

 

No personal offense meant, but I question how you could find Chinese Medical (herbal) information to be of merit or not, without an education in Chinese Medicine.

You don't have the skills of diagnosis, the underlying theory, or the experience seeing patients, to know whether the information is beneficial or harmful. The gauge with which you could judge something is completely not there.

Also, what you mention of herbalism isn't rooted in the book you say you learned it from over many years, Bensky.

This stuff really does require an actual education...and hopefully no one is taking herbal advice from this forum. It's not harmful like pharmaceuticals, but it almost is that harmful. It's truthfully better to not take herbs, than it is to take them with a DIY approach.

[Taomeow]

41 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

No personal offense meant, but I question how you could find Chinese Medical (herbal) information to be of merit or not, without an education in Chinese Medicine.

You don't have the skills of diagnosis, the underlying theory, or the experience seeing patients, to know whether the information is beneficial or harmful. The gauge with which you could judge something is completely not there.

Also, what you mention of herbalism isn't rooted in the book you say you learned it from over many years, Bensky.

This stuff really does require an actual education...and hopefully no one is taking herbal advice from this forum. It's not harmful like pharmaceuticals, but it almost is that harmful. It's truthfully better to not take herbs, than it is to take them with a DIY approach.

 

Um... no personal offense taken, but who told you I don't have an education?..  I only said (volunteered with no prompts, thank you) that I'm "not an expert," but what I consider an "expert" is not something to encounter on this forum.  From your posts I glean that, despite a more formalized (and less traditional) education, neither are you.

 

I have education in Chinese medicine and taoism (without the latter the former is a joke) from many sources, and I can integrate what I learn.  I am not treating, curing, diagnosing any conditions, especially online, but I do know how to, and having an opinion about herbal medicine does not fall into the category of DIY -- all opinions (except the ones that are the outcome of brainwashing) are DIY, unlike facts. 

 

The fact is, I'm pretty sure (and know from experience) 99% of modern TCM students and practitioners have never worked on developing the kind of sensitivity required to, e.g., take pulses and make sense of them with a couple decades of qigong, taiji, and taoist meditation, so I don't expect them to be better at it than I am.  They will be if they work on it and see patients.  They won't be if they see patients without turning themselves into fine-tuned diagnostic instruments.  Down the road, they will be -- or they won't be.  I hope you will be.  But you may need a bit of a paradigm shift for this methinks...   Maybe more than one.  I'm saying this with the best of intentions, so please don't take offense.  

[Aetherous]

6 hours ago, Taomeow said:

I have education in Chinese medicine

 

No, you really don't.

 

Enough said!

[Gerard]

6 hours ago, Taomeow said:

The fact is, I'm pretty sure (and know from experience) 99% of modern TCM students and practitioners have never worked on developing the kind of sensitivity required to, e.g., take pulses...

 

 

And this is where the problems start. Pray to the Heavens as a patient you find a good doctor because the chances ar that you won’t and the expenses in your pocket will be astronomical. 

 

By integrating Western Medicine with Classical Chinese Medicine —->TCM, chairman Mao commited a horrendous crime against an ancient civilisation.

 

“Taoist” Chinese Medicine? I doubt there are any such practitioners left alive today...maybe there are but you can count them with your fingers. Probably the likes of Wang Liping’s teachers. Mountain hermits? 

 

The doctor I see is good but he can be sneaky if you aren’t careful —-> initially he will persuade you to buy pills instead of herbs. This far from the ethical Confucian model promoted by Sun Simiao:

 

http://www.theworldofchinese.com/2015/10/where-confucianism-meets-chinese-medical-ethics/

 

TCM a very messy world, indeed!

 

 

 

 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Aetherous said:

 

No, you really don't.

 

Enough said!

 

Yes sir major general captain sir!!!

[HoldorFold]

16 hours ago, Aetherous said:

 

Herbs are not safe
 

 

Depends on the particular herbs to a large extent.

 

If you were to choose a random herb out of all the herbs in existence, then that of course would be dangerous. But I could go to my kitchen and brew myself a green tea or chew on some ginger, for example, without much  worry. So I think a healthy dose of common sense mixed with light research, experimentation, intuition and an awareness of the effects on one's body is generally a safe approach in regards to commonly used herbs.

[Taomeow]

11 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

 

And this is where the problems start. Pray to the Heavens as a patient you find a good doctor because the chances ar that you won’t and the expenses in your pocket will be astronomical. 

 

By integrating Western Medicine with Classical Chinese Medicine —->TCM, chairman Mao commited a horrendous crime against an ancient civilisation.

 

“Taoist” Chinese Medicine? I doubt there are any such practitioners left alive today...maybe there are but you can count them with your fingers. Probably the likes of Wang Liping’s teachers. Mountain hermits? 

 

The doctor I see is good but he can be sneaky if you aren’t careful —-> initially he will persuade you to buy pills instead of herbs. This far from the ethical Confucian model promoted by Sun Simiao:

 

http://www.theworldofchinese.com/2015/10/where-confucianism-meets-chinese-medical-ethics/

 

TCM a very messy world, indeed!

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed.  But this one "heinous crime" was not Mao's fault.   Enter David Rockefeller, beginning in the early 20th century.   He invested close to a hundred million (corresponding to billions in modern equivalent) into eliminating TCM and installing his medicine in China.  Mao didn't ban TCM, nor did he make the decision to "modernize" it by letting the Trojan horse of Rockefeller medicine into its practice -- all he did was take no position on it and allow both to exist side by side.  He was a monster of course but occasionally his classical Confucian education yielded some unexpectedly sensible fruit.  The "integration" was post-Mao developments, part of China's overall aggressive push into the arms of globalization. 

 

As for taoist Chinese medicine, I spent six weeks in the company of one such rare practitioner in Xian, he is indeed Wang Liping's taoist disciple but his medical training was fully indoor and traditional, by two prominent lineage doctors/taoist masters, and he also topped it off with a modern med school diploma just to be "in the loop."  I have a recording of a 3 1/2 hour interview I did with him, which I might finally make public, now that my technophobia is under control. 

   

 

 

[Aetherous]

12 hours ago, Gerard said:

By integrating Western Medicine with Classical Chinese Medicine —->TCM, chairman Mao commited a horrendous crime against an ancient civilisation.

 

This is a common misunderstanding. Zangfu diagnosis has extensive historical roots, and nearly 2,000 years of refinement. This system wasn't something that was just pieced together by a politician...some of the greatest practitioners in China at the time mutually agreed upon the curriculum (more or less).

TCM is best looked at as a clinically efficacious introduction to historical Chinese Medicine, which acts as a universal language for the various historical schools of thought. It's best used as a stepping off point into individualized study of the Classics, or other historical schools...all of which are still accessible, and which Bensky's herbs and formulas book give a first glimpse into.

TCM is just fine, especially if done with a deep study of it...I say this as someone who currently learns from a purely classical lineage, who researches the Nei Jing, and has been exposed to textual and lineage sources of Daoist Medicine...in other words, someone who is inclined away from TCM. Those who actually know Chinese medicine history don't disparage TCM so readily.

[Aetherous]

22 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

I have a recording of a 3 1/2 hour interview I did with him, which I might finally make public

 

Cool!

[Gerard]

6 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

1. Indeed.  But this one "heinous crime" was not Mao's fault.   Enter David Rockefeller, beginning in the early 20th century. 

 

2. I have a recording of a 3 1/2 hour interview I did with him, which I might finally make public, now that my technophobia is under control. 

   

 

 

 

1. I think started a lot earlier with the powerful East India Company plotting with Western allies in order to conquer China. Didn’t they send Western missionaries to infiltrate quietly and do their slow work of brainwashing the population? How about giving opium to the Chinese to weaken them, eventually The Opium Wars started which led to The Boxers Rebellion. 

 

Thanks about Mao info but I never liked the Red Guards and what they did to the longest living ancient civilisation.

 

2. Please do so...and lucky you for meeting such an individual. Did you visit the herb market in Xian? I heard it’s huge. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Gerard

[dawei]

21 hours ago, Gerard said:

By integrating Western Medicine with Classical Chinese Medicine —->TCM, chairman Mao commited a horrendous crime against an ancient civilisation.

 

9 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Indeed.  But this one "heinous crime" was not Mao's fault.   

 

I think both sides have a point here... Mao wanted to scale back (political correct for eradicate) Confucian memorizing control over the populous... same happened with Falun Gong...  any kind of massive movement which appears to be a challenge to State control is often suppressed in some way.   So I think Mao would of invited a decline in TCM.

 

And then there is a potential rest of the story... if it would be shared

[KuroShiro]

On 12/3/2017 at 4:27 PM, Taomeow said:

As for taoist Chinese medicine, I spent six weeks in the company of one such rare practitioner in Xian, he is indeed Wang Liping's taoist disciple but his medical training was fully indoor and traditional, by two prominent lineage doctors/taoist masters, and he also topped it off with a modern med school diploma just to be "in the loop."  I have a recording of a 3 1/2 hour interview I did with him, which I might finally make public, now that my technophobia is under control. 

 

 

I would love to see that, did you ever make it public? (please, please say yes )

[Rara]

On 02/12/2017 at 7:04 PM, Taomeow said:

Tradition says -- ginseng benefits older people (the older you are, the more benefits you get), but can create imbalances in younger people. 

 

I miss you TM. I made tea from ginseng route today for the first time. I went for a run just after and thought my heart was going to explode! I had to search this forum for the stuff and here I found this post!

 

I think I might give the rest to some of the elders in my taiji class haha