Does music deplete qi/jing?

[Phoenix3]

Being a Daoist really is an interesting life! Laozi recommends not listening to anything which contains the 5 tones or eating anything which is of the 5 tastes. I can see what he means, as I read somewhere that the kidneys (which store Jing) are connected to the tongue and ears.

 

so I went a week without eating sensual food or listening to any music and it was quite boring, and I had very little motivation (i’ve been doing semen retention during this time too), which are signs of lack of jing. 

 

Today, I found some good upbeat electronic music and started listening to it on full volume, and it was just amazing. As a sensation, it was like an intense orgasmic feeling that lasted for minutes. I just listened to the same song again for maybe the 7th time and the experience is starting to return to normal.

 

I know that pleasure usually means a leakage of jing, so have I just wasted all my Jing I saved up through abstaining from music and lust?

 

P.S. sorry for deleting my last thread. I got embarrassed for making a fundamental misunderstanding in my last thread, bit I shouldn’t have deleted it. I won’t do it again.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Phoenix3

[dawei]

I found this really interesting and hope you continue to write down such experiences.

 

Laozi's time period is quite different than our sensory influenced society.   We use such influences to amp our energy. 

 

BTW, for the last 20 years, I have not listened to my car radio...  

 

I'm not sure I agree that pleasure means a leakage of jing, like listening to music.   I think there are ways to guard your jing but one's level may likely have more to do with how well it is preserved/reserved. 

[Gerard]

Listen to Giovanni Maciocia’s 6 h presentation about Shen/Fire and Hun/Wood in YouTube. You’ll learn a lot and it will be benefit your practice. 

 

My advice: you also need a real life teacher.

 

Good luck

[ljazztrumpet]

10 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

Being a Daoist really is an interesting life! Laozi recommends not listening to anything which contains the 5 tones or eating anything which is of the 5 tastes. I can see what he means, as I read somewhere that the kidneys (which store Jing) are connected to the tongue and ears.

 

so I went a week without eating sensual food or listening to any music and it was quite boring, and I had very little motivation (i’ve been doing semen retention during this time too), which are signs of lack of jing. 

 

Today, I found some good upbeat electronic music and started listening to it on full volume, and it was just amazing. As a sensation, it was like an intense orgasmic feeling that lasted for minutes. I just listened to the same song again for maybe the 7th time and the experience is starting to return to normal.

 

I know that pleasure usually means a leakage of jing, so have I just wasted all my Jing I saved up through abstaining from music and lust?

 

P.S. sorry for deleting my last thread. I got embarrassed for making a fundamental misunderstanding in my last thread, bit I shouldn’t have deleted it. I won’t do it again.

Dude..you need some Coltrane!!

 

But, seriously, really..TRANE... YES!! 

 

 

 

[exorcist_1699]

Practitioners of Tao have to  know the basic principles of TCM  , which says that  the outlet of kidney is ears ( and , the outlet of liver is the eyes) ,  so listening too much or too long time of music does lead to depletion of jing  (similarly watching too much TV or reading too many books leads to the  depletion of eyesight ) ,which inevitably affects the progress of our practice . 

 

Conversely ,  rubbing some part of the ears,  or its proximity,  helps you replenish the lost jing.

[joeblast]

some listening is fine

 

but if you're involved in the music itself, dont expect to be a performer if you're very keen on this path.  4am nights are not conducive to cultivation

[doc benway]

On 12/1/2017 at 3:51 PM, Phoenix3 said:

Being a Daoist really is an interesting life! Laozi recommends not listening to anything which contains the 5 tones or eating anything which is of the 5 tastes. I can see what he means, as I read somewhere that the kidneys (which store Jing) are connected to the tongue and ears.

 

I'd be interested in seeing the source and context if you are willing to share.

Thanks

[ljazztrumpet]

13 hours ago, joeblast said:

some listening is fine

 

but if you're involved in the music itself, dont expect to be a performer if you're very keen on this path.  4am nights are not conducive to cultivation

Shite!! I guess I’m screwed!

 

  The most prolific spiritual healer I’m aware of slept, maybe, 1 hour in a 24hr period.. Sometimes, not at all. He basically said that if sleep were so great then a person who is wheel-chair bound would be able to go and get a good long sleep and wake up healed. He taught that the most important thing is to be continuously ‘tuned in’ to the unconditional love/divine energy/healing stream as much as possible until you were always connected with that love 24/7. I remember when traveling with medical doctors when they were giving free lectures on spiritual healing for people - We would be able to go and go without being tired...I would not be tired and need sleep when I usually would be. This didn't just happen to me, it did for a lot of us - When we were freely offering this service of helping others to heal themselves, this was a pretty common experience. We all remarked on the phenomenon except for the people who have been doing it for years and were used to it.

[joeblast]

7 hours ago, ljazztrumpet said:

Shite!! I guess I’m screwed!

 

  The most prolific spiritual healer I’m aware of slept, maybe, 1 hour in a 24hr period.. Sometimes, not at all. He basically said that if sleep were so great then a person who is wheel-chair bound would be able to go and get a good long sleep and wake up healed. He taught that the most important thing is to be continuously ‘tuned in’ to the unconditional love/divine energy/healing stream as much as possible until you were always connected with that love 24/7. I remember when traveling with medical doctors when they were giving free lectures on spiritual healing for people - We would be able to go and go without being tired...I would not be tired and need sleep when I usually would be. This didn't just happen to me, it did for a lot of us - When we were freely offering this service of helping others to heal themselves, this was a pretty common experience. We all remarked on the phenomenon except for the people who have been doing it for years and were used to it.

Its not really even tired or not - its a quality of practices thing.  Its like having someone poke you in the side with a stick while in meditation, except its poking your meditation & cultivation practices timeline with a stick instead.  Being involved in a few projects concurrently, is like getting poked with a few sticks instead of just one.  I mean, unless that's one's "day job"...buddy of mine that went on tour said it wasnt all that bad, if you really liked to perform.  Being able to sleep late and make up the sleep loss on the am side is a big plus - because if you have a real job, and have multiple projects, and have a serious level of cultivation efforts going on...well, there may not be time for even that, and meditative quality suffers.  Is one drenched in sweat after a lecture? 

Edited December 3, 2017 by joeblast

[Jeff]

Music can be extremely valuable to a spiritual practioner. The key is to stay focused in the moment and just listening to the music.

 

 Different music resonates at different layers in the mind. So the type of music you choose will make a big difference.

[Rara]

21 hours ago, joeblast said:

some listening is fine

 

but if you're involved in the music itself, dont expect to be a performer if you're very keen on this path.  4am nights are not conducive to cultivation

 

Exactly why I quit. It was quite exhausting for 45 min "buzz" of being on stage.

 

I like music, still. Just in moderation - makes it even more special when you bring out that great track you haven't listened to in ages.

[ljazztrumpet]

I'm a professional jazz musician and I can tell you my music is directly tied into my spiritual practice.. I can directly tell things about where I am in my spiritual consciousness (I am focused on raising my love consciousness and it's relation to physical and emotional healing) by how I am improvising. By what's coming out of the bell of my horn..and by how I'm interacting with the other musicians I'm playing with. When I go and give high school jazz clinics, I always use the analogy of jazz improvisation being the same as learning any other language. I find my own communication, whether through my spoken/written word or through improvisation, is very much related to the love in my heart.

 

One of the wisest and most loving beings I know recently told me that the key for me for everything in my life is to live from my heart. She lived with me for several years and is getting ready to come back into my life (hint-she's not a person!) This is quite an incredible story that I'm in the middle of...When she comes back, I'll probably tell the story here and post some pics... Anyway, I refer to this because it's caused me to put my love consciousness practice into 'super-high gear' and every day one of my indicators to 'where I am' in this is through my improvisation.. I know it's not just me because I've gotten + feedback from the cats I work with the last month especially...

 

About the sleep thing..The point is that, when you are really living from the heart and serving others in a healthy way, you need little sleep or food. I've experienced this on a small scale..but have known a few people who live this way to a high degree...it's very inspiring to me..and, when I'm around them, their energy kind of 'rubs off' on me.. and I'm not one to usually believe in all that 'energy transfer clap-trap'! 

 

I'm just going by my real life experiences that happen to me every day..that's all I care about, practical, real-life, tangible results.. I'm trying to communicate it in words as best I can. Hopefully, as I gain more wisdom, I'll gain more clarity in communicating all this stuff! 

[joeblast]

hm....well, viciously fast hardcore punk drumming sometimes feels like an MMA match, sometimes performances are intense enough its like run til you puke except drum til you puke.  I never did, of course - and performances always need to be clear minded so as to give the best performance, so it wasnt because of anything else...maybe it was because I would tend to yell when I played, too

or jumping and power posing while not missing any notes on bass would always feel like some crazy workout, too.  most shows I would play, I would just bring a change of clothes for after, because performances were full blown sweat workouts for me

 

the practice aspect, most times people would want to practice too late, or only could practice too late...living from the heart only goes so far when you're up till 11, midnight 3, 4 nights a week on this stuff and then performances are 3am, 4am jammies...with a normal 7-4 job...that gets rough. 

 

I'm just going by real world experience, too

[ljazztrumpet]

10 minutes ago, joeblast said:

hm....well, viciously fast hardcore punk drumming sometimes feels like an MMA match, sometimes performances are intense enough its like run til you puke except drum til you puke.  I never did, of course - and performances always need to be clear minded so as to give the best performance, so it wasnt because of anything else...maybe it was because I would tend to yell when I played, too

or jumping and power posing while not missing any notes on bass would always feel like some crazy workout, too.  most shows I would play, I would just bring a change of clothes for after, because performances were full blown sweat workouts for me

 

 

Hahaha! Ok, I get it bro.. Joe BLAST! Nice!

11 minutes ago, joeblast said:

the practice aspect, most times people would want to practice too late, or only could practice too late...living from the heart only goes so far when you're up till 11, midnight 3, 4 nights a week on this stuff and then performances are 3am, 4am jammies...with a normal 7-4 job...that gets rough. 

 

I'm just going by real world experience, too

Actually, that's part of my point. It's easier to live from the heart and do all this 'love stuff' when things are going smooth and easier in your life. Check out this dude!

-----------------------------------

This excerpt from the book Return from Tomorrow by George C. Ritchie is without question the most powerful testament to the resilience and strength of the human spirit I’ve ever encountered. Every time I hear it, it takes my breath away.

Ritchie was a soldier in WWII who was part of a group assigned to a concentration camp near Wuppertal, Germany, after the war with Europe ended in May 1945. Ritchie’s team was charged with getting medical help to the newly liberated prisoners, many of them Jews from Holland, France and eastern Europe. He writes:


 

This was the most shattering experience I had yet had. I had been exposed many times by then to sudden death and injury, but to see the effects of slow starvation, to walk through those barracks where thousands of men had died a little bit at a time over a period of years, was a new kind of horror. For many it was an irreversible process; we lost scores each day in spite of all the medicine and food we could rush to them.

Ritchie then relates how he came to know an inmate the American soldiers called Wild Bill Cody due to his long drooping handlebar mustache that resembled that of the old western hero. Wild Bill’s real name was “seven unpronounceable syllables in Polish.” Ritchie writes of him:
 

He was one of the inmates of the concentration camp, but obviously he had not been there long; his posture was erect, his eyes bright, his energy indefatigable. Since he was fluent in English, French, German and Russian, as well as Polish, he became a kind of unofficial camp translator.

We came to him with all sorts of problems; the paperwork alone was staggering in attempting to relocate people whose families, even whole hometowns, might have disappeared. But though Wild Bill worked fifteen and sixteen hours a day, he showed no signs of weariness. While the rest of us were drooping with fatigue, he seemed to gain strength. “We have time for this old fellow,” he would say. “He’s been waiting to see us all day.” His compassion for his fellow prisoners glowed on his face, and it was to this glow that I came when my own spirits were low.

So I was astonished to learn, when Wild Bill’s own papers came before us one day, that he had been in Wuppertal since 1939! For six years he had lived on the same starvation diet, slept in the same airless and disease-ridden barracks as everyone else, but without the least physical or mental deterioration.

Perhaps even more amazing, every group in the camp looked on him as a friend. He was the one to whom quarrels between inmates were brought for arbitration. Only after I had been at Wuppertal a number of weeks did I realize what a rarity this was in a compound where the different nationalities of prisoners hated each other almost as much as they did the Germans.

As for the Germans, feelings against them ran so high that in some of the camps liberated earlier, former prisoners had seized guns, run into the nearest village and simply shot the first Germans they saw. Part of our instructions were to prevent this kind of thing and again Wild Bill was our greatest asset, reasoning with the different groups, counseling forgiveness.

“It’s not easy for some of them to forgive,” I commented to him one day as we sat over mugs of tea in the proceeding center. “So many of them have lost members of their families.”

Wild Bill leaned back on the upright chair and sipped at his drink. “We lived in the Jewish section of Warsaw,” he began slowly, the first words I had heard him speak about himself. “My wife, our two daughters, and our three little boys. When the Germans reached our street they lined everyone against a wall and opened up with machine guns. I begged to be allowed to die with my family, but because I spoke German they put me in a work group.”

He paused, perhaps seeing again his wife and children. “I had to decide right then,” he continued, “whether to let myself hate the soldiers who had done this. It was an easy decision, really. I was a lawyer. In my practice I had seen too often what hate could do to people’s minds and bodies. Hate had just killed the six people who mattered most to me in the world. I decided then that I would spend the rest of my life, whether it was a few days or many years, loving every person I came in contact with.”

Wild Bill’s story breaks my heart but lifts my spirits. I, too, have tried to love every person I come in contact with, to see the beauty in their soul. And while I’ve made incremental progress, I have miles to go if I hope to come anywhere near my goal.

It is often unspeakable tragedy that drives people to extremes. Most choose the easy route of hate, self-pity and rage. Precious few choose the opposite end of the spectrum, as Wild Bill did. Yet that is where the human spirit can find endless supplies of strength and forgiveness, for it is there, at the highest level of the human experience, that we find unconditional love. That is when we are closest to God, when our will is aligned with Divine Will. That is where Wild Bill chose to live, and the example of his courage and love burns as brightly today as it did in those hellish days that brought out the best in the bravest and most noble among us.

[ljazztrumpet]

Also, Michael Jaco, Ex-Navy Seal..sending love in combat and was able to stop a suicide bomber with love..and save his platoon on several occasions..

 

 

[Rara]

On 01/12/2017 at 8:51 PM, Phoenix3 said:

Being a Daoist really is an interesting life! Laozi recommends not listening to anything which contains the 5 tones or eating anything which is of the 5 tastes. I can see what he means, as I read somewhere that the kidneys (which store Jing) are connected to the tongue and ears.

 

so I went a week without eating sensual food or listening to any music and it was quite boring, and I had very little motivation (i’ve been doing semen retention during this time too), which are signs of lack of jing. 

 

Today, I found some good upbeat electronic music and started listening to it on full volume, and it was just amazing. As a sensation, it was like an intense orgasmic feeling that lasted for minutes. I just listened to the same song again for maybe the 7th time and the experience is starting to return to normal.

 

I know that pleasure usually means a leakage of jing, so have I just wasted all my Jing I saved up through abstaining from music and lust?

 

P.S. sorry for deleting my last thread. I got embarrassed for making a fundamental misunderstanding in my last thread, bit I shouldn’t have deleted it. I won’t do it again.

 

No, I'd just say that you put yourself through "cold turkey", but weren't quite ready to abstain from such things.

 

I wouldn't take things from the Tao Te Ching literally, or as ritual. The more you (artificially) refine yourself, the further away from tao you will get.

[doc benway]

18 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

12

Colors blind the eye.
Sounds deafen the ear.
Flavors numb the taste.
Thoughts weaken the mind.
Desires wither the heart.

The Master observes the world
but trusts his inner vision.
He allows things to come and go.
His heart is open as the sky.

 

http://taoteching.org.uk/chapter12.html

 

For me, this does not imply that someone on the path should avoid listening to music.

It's not about the sounds, it's about the listener.

 

[taoguy]

I always thought 'five tones' meant not literally listening to music, but turning hearing inwards and away from the 5 tones.

[ljazztrumpet]

16 hours ago, steve said:

 

For me, this does not imply that someone on the path should avoid listening to music.

It's not about the sounds, it's about the listener.

 

True that steve. Or it's about the musician playing the music and listening. When improvising, the ideal state for me is to be like I'm singing through the instrument and not thinking about what I am playing..I am just listening to what's 'coming through'. It's just like having a good spoken conversation with someone. You're not really thinking about everything you're 'going to' say. You're listening to the other person and then responding - but it's all flowing very naturally and automatically. It's when you don't resonate/gel with the people you're talking to (or the musicians you're playing with) that the conversation becomes stilted/forced and your thinking mind starts getting involved - the flow is interrupted. Usually, these types of conversations don't last too long

[oak]

1 hour ago, ljazztrumpet said:

True that steve. Or it's about the musician playing the music and listening. When improvising, the ideal state for me is to be like I'm singing through the instrument and not thinking about what I am playing..I am just listening to what's 'coming through'. It's just like having a good spoken conversation with someone. You're not really thinking about everything you're 'going to' say. You're listening to the other person and then responding - but it's all flowing very naturally and automatically. It's when you don't resonate/gel with the people you're talking to (or the musicians you're playing with) that the conversation becomes stilted/forced and your thinking mind starts getting involved - the flow is interrupted. Usually, these types of conversations don't last too long

 

Very much in tune with what you wrote here Lex. My experience tells me that the more I cultivate/train the senses, the more silence I experience (in a non forceful way) in my mind. All the time spent imagining sounds,shapes, colours, physical sensations etc results afterwards in a spontaneous openness and a childlike very vivid awareness of a new world. In that sense always though artists had an advantage over non artists.

Edited December 4, 2017 by oak
Forgot something

[Andrei]

Quote

Colors blind the eye.
Sounds deafen the ear.
Flavors numb the taste.
Thoughts weaken the mind.
Desires wither the heart.

 

It's all about dopamine. Without dopamine your brain couldn't function and your live would be depressing and bland.

Too much dopamine produces addiction and may destroy you in the end but too little kills you too.

So it's not about eliminating all those things forever and for good, just maintain a healthy balance.

About sounds, the Chinese music theory as well as many other Asian musical systems are based on five tones as oposed to the western musical scale based on seven tones. Every tone has a frequency and every frequency resonates with something in your body, for your information there are healing sounds too. You have to be really smart to know how to use them just the same as the tastes.

[寒月 Hanyue]

On 01/12/2017 at 8:51 PM, Phoenix3 said:

Being a Daoist really is an interesting life! Laozi recommends not listening to anything which contains the 5 tones or eating anything which is of the 5 tastes. I can see what he means, as I read somewhere that the kidneys (which store Jing) are connected to the tongue and ears.

 

so I went a week without eating sensual food or listening to any music

 

Apologies but this feels like a mis-understanding of Laozi.

 

五色使人目盲

the five colours make our eyes blind

五音使人耳聾

the five tones make our ears deaf

五味使人口爽

the five flavours make our mouths numb

 

To beleive that there is only one singular 'true' meaning in these classics is a mistake. Bearing that in mind. Here the number five is being used to represent the manifesation in the world around us, it could read "all colour(s), all sound(s), all flavour(s)...".

 

It is not saying "music uses the five tones, the five tones make us deaf, therefore do not listen to music". Just as it does not mean "blind", "deaf", "numb" in the literal sense of physically being incapable of seeing, hearing etc. It means that we are blind to the Dao, deaf to the Dao etc.

 

Even if you avoid music, you are still hearing the "five tones" Laozi is referring to. Rather it is pointing to what occurs when we lose ourselves in the manifestation of the world. Buddhists would call that maya (illusion). Laozi remember is trying to point you to the Dao, which is 'constant', rather than the world of form, which is always changing. 

 

If you are not blind to the Dao, deaf to the deaf, numb to the Dao, you can watch, or listen or eat and it will not make you "blind", "deaf", "numb".

 

These passages are not in isolation;

 

視之不見，

we look but don't see it

名曰夷；

and call it indistinct

聽之不聞，

we listen but don't hear it

名曰希；

and call it faint

搏之不得，

we reach but don't grasp it

名曰微。

and call it ethereal

 

Which is a continuation of the previous ideas.

 

This is not philosophy or life advice, it is a direct pragmatic experience of consciousness.

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by 寒月 Hanyue

[Phoenix3]

Yes! Those passages are exactly what i was thinking of, but I forgot where I remembered them from. Thank you.

 

Is he basically saying, eat a nice meal, but don’t enjoy it? Listen to a good song, but don’t enjoy it?

[silent thunder]

“If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.”

 

Nikola Tesla

 

I've been rolling in and through raw vibration frequency and sound of all manners (visual, touch, taste and subtle) and saturating my(self) in vibrations of and with intention and full immersive interaction to great benefit for nigh on a decade now.

 

Solfeggio Harmonics are one inroad I dearly appreciate to a dimension of simultaneous introspection and expansion but I now find the inroads are unstoppable, irreversible and everpresent no matter my state of mind, or lack thereof, so the effortless flowing is where I mainly allow myself to glide if other vibrations don't interpolate themselves temporarily.

 

But then, any vibration is as much music as the tones ever flowing from the cacophanous streets, or the wind-swept willows fields and the wild flower brigades of the meadows unfettered.

 

Where does music live?  In the instrument?  In the ear of the listener?  In the mind of the musician?

 

If I only think of music, is that music?

 

harmony, dissonance... who defines what is music?

 

to me, it's all music... one great fluid affluence of full blown orgiastic gorgeousness

 

be uptight or flow with it... it matters not a whit to me...

 

I'm in it, through it and of it in every which way imaginable...

and then some!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ljazztrumpet]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

But then, any vibration is as much music as the tones ever flowing from the cacophanous streets, or the wind-swept willows fields and the wild flower brigades of the meadows unfettered.

 

Where does music live?  In the instrument?  In the ear of the listener?  In the mind of the musician?

 

If I only think of music, is that music?

 

harmony, dissonance... who defines what is music?

 

to me, it's all music... one great fluid affluence of full blown orgiastic gorgeousness

 

be uptight or flow with it... it matters not a whit to me...

 

I'm in it, through it and of it in every which way imaginable...

and then some!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey ST, that's really well put. That was a big part of John Cage's philosophy. 

 

Every sound can be music, it's just how you choose to hear it!