Diversity in The Great Divide

[Astral Monk]

Just wait till we're all speaking Chinese, which is practically a certainty. Aboriginals et al will be crying for the easy days of white colonial rule lmao.

[windwalker]

45 minutes ago, Astral Monk said:

Just wait till we're all speaking Chinese, which is practically a certainty. Aboriginals et al will be crying for the easy days of white colonial rule lmao.

 

Are you saying there are no white aboriginals, and that all aboriginals are not white. 

In China, one has to work,,you might be correct might be a hard change for those used to getting free stuff. 

 

The Chinese will and are doing well because of a shared culture and accepted values.  Interesting enough they actually have more freedom of expression on some subjects then those in the west.  They as other Asian cultures are very much aware of what happens when cultures change in ways not conductive to the parent culture from which a society was or is built from.

 

"The chain migration of a DACA amnesty would potentially outpace the populations of American cities like New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston."  http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/12/15/daca-amnesty-chain-migration-would-exceed-four-years-of-u-s-births/

 

The US is in a fight to maintain its culture by those who seek to maintain power by any means.  The last 8yrs was lead by a president whose lasting legacy will be recorded in history as the great divider....heralding the culture war the US is now engaged in.   

 

[moment]

As Taoists all things are relative to our immediate surroundings, space/time and us.  What is the value of our opinions?  How much do those opinions prevent us from properly reacting to the moment?

[doc benway]

On 12/11/2017 at 1:09 PM, Rishi Das said:

This article, The Great Divide (linked below) brought Dao Bums to mind so I figured I'd share. 
What I took from the reading was the importance of cultivating the quality of acceptance in relation to the diversity of 'spiritual' teachings and practices that abound in our world today. 
For me, teachings and practices are as good as there ability to bring the 'seeker' to that which they seek. With that in mind, who am I to judge how or what that looks like for someone else..  

 

https://tricycle.org/magazine/the-great-divide/

 

Methinks we do a great job of being all-inclusive here at the Dao Bums but me also thinks it's still an important reminder. 
As a newbie, it took me some time to understand that being so tunnel visioned as to disregard another's path because it didn't match my own understanding could have left others feeling as though they didn't belong. It's one thing to disagree and another to disregard and it's important to keep in mind that  language/words are important in a community forged by language/words. 

 

Anyway, that's all I got. Appreciate you taking the time to pop in.  
Happy and open to hearing what you got from the article should you feel moved to read and share. 

 

In the spirit of Aetherous's 'Counting our Blessings' thread I want to thank you all for being and contributing to the forum. I'm grateful for you. 
A special thanks to all the admins/mods for keeping things in check and providing a safe space for us all to be and share in. 

 

Is it possible to read for a non-subscriber?

[Rishi Das]

12 hours ago, gendao said:

2)  The OP really needs to just cut & paste the text of that article, because it is hidden behind a paywall.  Hence, I was only commenting on some of your tangential comments...

 

 

1 hour ago, steve said:

Is it possible to read for a non-subscriber?

 

 

I apologize - when i originally accessed and read the article it was not hidden behind a paywall.

I am not a subscriber but will see what i can do as far as getting the original text copied and pasted. 

[gendao]

14 hours ago, Astral Monk said:

Just wait till we're all speaking Chinese, which is practically a certainty. Aboriginals et al will be crying for the easy days of white colonial rule lmao.

Lol, absolute nonsense. The Chinese had actually already preceded WIRED explorers all around the world...and likely by ~2800 years in the case of Turtle Island, for instance.

So, why weren't all these peoples already speaking Chinese, largely exterminated, and under Chinese rule today?  Because...these various Chinese explorers were respectful tourists exploring for its own sake and establishing trade routes - not planting flags on distant lands under some self-appointed, colonialist "Doctrine of Discovery." 

 

Even though - they by all means easily had the overwhelming power to do so, had they wished!

China has always only wanted to preserve its own homeland and control its border regions - but not take over the entire world - like the WIRED empire has.

Edited December 16, 2017 by gendao

[windwalker]

3 hours ago, gendao said:

So, why weren't all these peoples already speaking Chinese, largely exterminated, and under Chinese rule today?  Because...these various Chinese explorers were respectful tourists exploring for its own sake and establishing trade routes - not planting flags on distant lands under some self-appointed, colonialist "Doctrine of Discovery." 

 

 

Or they really didnt need or care too.. You do understand the size of china, and what was happening at the time in China don't you?  You do understand the history of the sounding areas and what happened to them. 

 

"Beginning nearly a century later, as the rule of the Qing Empire expanded over wider groups of people, writers and gazetteers recast their descriptions away from reflecting degree of acculturation, and toward a system that defined the aborigines relative to their submission or hostility to Qing rule. Qing used the term "raw/wild/uncivilized" (生番) to define those people who had not submitted to Qing rule, and "cooked/tamed/civilized"

 

(熟番) for those who had pledged their allegiance through their payment of a head tax.[12] According to the standards of the Qianlong Emperor and successive regimes, the epithet "cooked" was synonymous with having assimilated to Han cultural norms, and living as a subject of the Empire, but it retained a pejorative designation to signify the perceived cultural lacking of the non-Han people.[13][14] This designation reflected the prevailing idea that anyone could be civilized/tamed by adopting Confucian social norms.[15][16]"

 

 

You seem to be very misinformed or maybe overly biased regarding "human" history.  Why, why is it important to point out what europeans did and no other groups say the islamist.  What if they manged to colonize the US, 

[gendao]

1 hour ago, windwalker said:

Or they really didnt need or care too.. You do understand the size of china, and what was happening at the time in China don't you?  You do understand the history of the sounding areas and what happened to them. 

 

"Beginning nearly a century later, as the rule of the Qing Empire expanded over wider groups of people, writers and gazetteers recast their descriptions away from reflecting degree of acculturation, and toward a system that defined the aborigines relative to their submission or hostility to Qing rule. Qing used the term "raw/wild/uncivilized" (生番) to define those people who had not submitted to Qing rule, and "cooked/tamed/civilized"

 

(熟番) for those who had pledged their allegiance through their payment of a head tax.[12] According to the standards of the Qianlong Emperor and successive regimes, the epithet "cooked" was synonymous with having assimilated to Han cultural norms, and living as a subject of the Empire, but it retained a pejorative designation to signify the perceived cultural lacking of the non-Han people.[13][14] This designation reflected the prevailing idea that anyone could be civilized/tamed by adopting Confucian social norms.[15][16]"

 

 

You seem to be very misinformed or maybe overly biased regarding "human" history.  Why, why is it important to point out what europeans did and no other groups say the islamist.  What if they manged to colonize the US, 

Lol, oh the ironies on being "misinformed" or "biased" about history, lol...

 

1)  The Qing Dynasty was the last one in China, and a foreign (Manchu) one at that.  All of China's seafaring expeditions to Africa, the Middle East, SE Asia, and probably Turtle Island too - had already occurred well before this.  For example, Zheng He's great voyages occurred in the previous Ming Dynasty...  Therefore, whatever was happening at the time of the final Qing Dynasty was already well after the fact, and irrelevant.

 

2)  Which brings us to your next historical oversight and hilarious irony.  What about other groups, "say the Islamist?"  Um, I guess you didn't realize that Zheng He was a Chinese Muslim (Hui) from a practicing Muslim family? 

Quote

Zheng He was born in 1371 in the southern China region of Yunnan to a Hui (a Muslim Chinese ethnic group) family. His birth name was Ma He. In China, the family name is said first, followed by the given name. “Ma” is known in China as short for “Muhammad”, indicating Zheng He’s Muslim heritage. Both his father and his grandfather were able to travel to Makkah and complete the Hajj, so Zheng He came from a practicing Muslim family.

In 1405, when emperor Zhu Di decided to send out a giant fleet of ships to explore and trade with the rest of the world, he chose Zheng He to lead the expedition. This expedition was massive. In all, almost 30,000 sailors were in each voyage, with Zheng He commanding all of them. Between 1405 and 1433, Zheng He led 7 expeditions that sailed to present day Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, India, Sri Lanka, Iran, Oman, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Kenya, and many other countries. It is probable that during one of his journeys, Zheng He was even able to go to Makkah [Mecca in Saudi Arabia] to complete the Hajj.

Zheng He was not the only Muslim on these expeditions. Many of his advisors and were also Chinese Muslims, such as Ma Huan, a translator who spoke Arabic and was able to converse with the Muslim peoples they encountered on their journeys.

Seeing these expeditions must have been an event that people did not easily forget. The ships Zheng He commanded were up to 400 feet long, many times the size of Columbus’s ships that sailed across the Atlantic.

Everywhere they sailed, they commanded the respect (and sometimes fear) of the local people, who offered tributes to the Chinese emperor. Because of this tribute and trade with all the peoples they encountered, Zheng He would sail back to China with exotic goods such as ivory, camels, gold, and even a giraffe from Africa. The expeditions sent one message to the world: China is an economic and political superpower.

As an admiral, diplomat, soldier, and trader, Zheng He is a giant of Chinese and Muslim history. He is seen as one of the greatest figured in the spread of Islam in Southeast Asia.

Um, hope that helps answer your question for an example of how Islamic global exploration was also conducted, then?

 

Now again, keep in mind that these giant Chinese ships commanded absolute respect and fear in all the various foreign locals they encountered.  So, ABSOLUTELY - they could have conquered and colonized them...if they had wished.  But, they didn't, as they were essentially touring cruise ships, NOT warships hellbent on taking over the planet!

 

And that was just the last great Chinese explorer, too.  The earlier ones likely dated back to the (2nd) Shang Dynasty "Bronze Age" around 1300 BC and went all the way into the New World (in what is now the American Southwest and Olmecs in Mexico).

 

Well, sooooo much for the Chinese (or some Muslims) wanting to take over the world (Murican projection)!

 

Again, these Chinese explorers had vastly preceded their WIRED counterparts in time, and also surpassed them in force.  However, we're all speaking English today instead of Chinese - because the Chinese peacefully & respectfully CHOSE NOT to colonize all the foreign lands they "discovered."  FACT IS, if China had wanted to colonize the world - they could and already would have done so ~3300-600 years ago, LMFAO!!!

Edited December 17, 2017 by gendao

[windwalker]

3 hours ago, gendao said:

"  FACT IS, if China had wanted to colonize the world - they could and already would have done so ~3300-600 years ago, LMFAO!!!

 

 

Fact is they didnt need to and used a different method achieving the same ends.

 

  “The purpose was to establish suzerainty under Ming Empire, and this policy was institutionalized later in 1636 when ruler Hong Taiji established Lifan Yuan (various translations as court of colonial affairs, office of barbarian control, office of Mongolian and Tibetan affairs) that became Lifan Bu in the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). Indeed if submission to the Dragon Throne was not forthcoming, Zheng He did not hesitate to intervene militarily. For example, the ruler of Sri Lanka refused to recognize the emperor and was taken to China as a prisoner, while similar fate befell two rulers in Sumatra. >>>

 

 “Zheng's missions were intended to exert political and economic control across space rather than territorial control. By controlling economic lifelines of nodal points, networks, ports and trade routes, China was thus able to control trade. In do doing, a dominant maritime power reaps economic and political benefits by taking control of main port polities along major East-West maritime trade networks as well as the seas in between." >>>

 

next time try quoting all the facts .  

 

[gendao]

^ Well, suzerainty under China was still a farrrrr cry less oppressive than colonialism under the WIRED empire.  In the case of China, it often involved only a periodic, or even one-time, tribute as a "registration/bully fee" for becoming a trading partner.   Beyond that, there wasn't much interference in local governance.

Quote

Suzerainty differs from true sovereignty, as the tributary state/person is technically independent, and enjoys self-rule (though usually limited in practice).

Quote

Under the Ming dynasty, countries that wanted to have any form of relationship with China, political, economic or otherwise, had to enter the tribute system. As a result, tribute was often paid for opportunistic reasons rather than as a serious gesture of allegiance to the Chinese emperor, and the mere fact that tribute was paid may not be understood in a way that China had political leverage over its tributary.  Also some tribute missions may just have been up by ingenious traders. A number of countries only paid tribute once, as a result of Zheng He's expeditions.

Quote

Diplomatic relations with the Chinese emperor were made on the theory of tributary states, although in practice tributary relations would often result in a form of trade under the theory that the emperor in his kindness would reward the tributary state with gifts of equal or greater value.

In short, yes, China extorted some bully fees out of these countries...but it also resulted in some symbiotic trade.  And, they didn't also invade, occupy, steal land, and destroy the local populations and their cultures.  Hence, once their whole tributary system ended...all of their tributary states were still left intact with little residual impact.

 

And fact is, WIRED people didn't need to colonize the entire world either, did they?  I mean, why couldn't they also have just demanded a few bully fees and settled for more trade, as well?

Edited December 17, 2017 by gendao