Unfair Karma

[Jessup2]

Hello all,

 

Meditating on karma ideas, letting them float around, I have some pretty mixed feelings about it. But mainly it comes across as a dumb idea without merit, unless you are capable of remembering why you have it, and why it is bad. Good karma everyone would take in stride, without a fuss.

 

Like with any form of "punishment", being punished without knowing why leads to disturbed people with problems. So unless we know what we did wrong, and how not to repeat this, or exactly what it is, this is again some mumbo-jumbo dumb idea that can never be understood. Working through our karma becomes just another crap pile to deal with without any clear definition.

 

To underline my point, reincarnation and/or the dark wave place have to be included in the description. If you simply get tortured for the wrongs you do immediately, with bad health or losing your wealth, it would be instant karma and I would see it as a fair system and cheer for it. But if it only happens after you die, and you get punished for a while, then get reborn with a life full of issues, but have no idea why you have them, what good is it? You have to be able to connect the poor conditions with what it is you did wrong in order that you don't repeat this same behavior. So a system that keeps you in the dark about your crimes and why you are being punished is a totally dumb idea invented by somebody who needs to make people afraid of being bad to each other. Simply a bad idea invention, no better than the Christian hell idea. And I'm not buying it. 

 

If karma is a cause and effect, such as smoking causing issues with lung health, and you know it will cause this and still smoke, then it is a force of nature and you have a choice to do something about it. The source of the problem is clear, the consequences are clear.

 

All this smoke and mirror magic karma garbage has to stop. I see way too many rotten people with all the money and power, and I don't feel like we should wait for karma to fix that problem, or trust that it is doing the job. 

 

So in my humble opinion, karma is a dumb idea unless you know what you did wrong, and how you can fix it, and what happens if you keep doing the bad karma thing. If it is so universal, and effects everyone, we all have a right to know, and a right to protest it. All other forms are forms of unnecessary torture and unfair, and that means that karma must deal with itself as an unfair and bad karma thing. Consume itself and punish itself for being secretive and unfair towards everyone on the planet.

 

I remember as a child, 9 years old, letting God and the Devil know one thing very seriously. I said, "if you two have some kind of fight, leave me out of it, leave me alone, let me be." I don't need your heaven, where there are a bunch of freaks that I would have to spend eternity with. I don't need your hell, because being punished for things I do proves there is no free will and no free choices, since the consequences according to this belief system say you don't "really" have a choice, except to burn in hell or suffer an eternity with people you don't like. Same thing, hell either way. So stop this and leave me out of your system, your personal fight, your idea of reality. 

 

How about some reflective thoughts?

[thelerner]

As a cosmic concept, I don't think there's anybody keeping a scorecard on what I'm doing.  On a personal level, its a good concept for living a better life and leaving a better world in our wake.. so for me- acknowledging my actions have consequences is a good way to live. 

 

The cosmic happenings are above my paygrade, but kindnesses are not. 

[ChiForce]

Karma is action generated by emotional affliction, emotional complex resulting from your ego, societal conditioning, character faults, and past lives.  As you can see, karma is generated at all times under all situation without any regard of your will or intention...unless you have become a somewhat realized cultivator....

 

Even if you know you are doing something wrong to yourself and to others, because your actions are being influence by uncontrolled emotional and psychological issues, you can't stop them from happening.  That's why these actions are called complex or habits.....or attachment.... 

Edited December 19, 2017 by ChiForce

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, Jessup2 said:

Hello all,

 

Meditating on karma ideas, letting them float around, I have some pretty mixed feelings about it. But mainly it comes across as a dumb idea without merit, unless you are capable of remembering why you have it, and why it is bad. Good karma everyone would take in stride, without a fuss.

 

 

Good questions. I'll try to give my take on this topic as it's a topic I have studied a lot and influences most of the decisions I make in my life.

 

 First of all karma as the Buddha taught it, is simply a law of nature much like gravity, the electromagnetic force, and the speed of light. It simply is a force generated by the mind and that's all, its cause and effect, just the same as if one pushed a boulder on top of a hill and the effect is for it to roll down hill. The point of gravity isn't to teach us moral lessons, it simply is. Of course if we are wise we can learn lessons from gravity, but gravity is just gravity whether we learn from it or not. 

1 hour ago, Jessup2 said:

 

 

Like with any form of "punishment", being punished without knowing why leads to disturbed people with problems. So unless we know what we did wrong, and how not to repeat this, or exactly what it is, this is again some mumbo-jumbo dumb idea that can never be understood. Working through our karma becomes just another crap pile to deal with without any clear definition.

 

To underline my point, reincarnation and/or the dark wave place have to be included in the description. If you simply get tortured for the wrongs you do immediately, with bad health or losing your wealth, it would be instant karma and I would see it as a fair system and cheer for it. But if it only happens after you die, and you get punished for a while, then get reborn with a life full of issues, but have no idea why you have them, what good is it? You have to be able to connect the poor conditions with what it is you did wrong in order that you don't repeat this same behavior. So a system that keeps you in the dark about your crimes and why you are being punished is a totally dumb idea invented by somebody who needs to make people afraid of being bad to each other. Simply a bad idea invention, no better than the Christian hell idea. And I'm not buying it. 

 

 

Karma is not a form of punishment nor reward, again simply cause and effect. The notion of punishment is one of theistic philosophy, that there is a being that has opinions on our actions and rewards and punishes us accordingly. This is not karma, it is not personal. We don't need to know what we did wrong in a past life or last year or yesterday to know what to do now, for that is the past and there is nothing we can do about it. All we need to know is what to do in the present which is the only place we can ever be and ever are. 

 

I would also like to mention that karma does not only come to fruition in future lives but can and often does come to fruition in this life and sometimes relatively quickly depending on if the circumstances are favorable for it to do so. I have made a conscious effort to improve my karma and I have seen my life improve. I have also seen the karma from less than honorable things I've done come to fruition sometimes rapidly. 

1 hour ago, Jessup2 said:

 

 

If karma is a cause and effect, such as smoking causing issues with lung health, and you know it will cause this and still smoke, then it is a force of nature and you have a choice to do something about it. The source of the problem is clear, the consequences are clear.

 

All this smoke and mirror magic karma garbage has to stop. I see way too many rotten people with all the money and power, and I don't feel like we should wait for karma to fix that problem, or trust that it is doing the job. 

 

 

I agree we can choose to do something about karma and many people do this constantly. The reason there are "rotten" people with money from a karma point of view is the result of being generous in a past life with out developing wisdom, an important thing to consider. Though I'm not sure what you would consider "fixing the problem" of rotten people having wealth? Actually its only a "problem" if we see it as one. It's important to remember in this Samsara there is always going to be suffering and inequality, thus the reason the Buddha said to work to escape it as though our heads were on fire. 

 

1 hour ago, Jessup2 said:

 

 

So in my humble opinion, karma is a dumb idea unless you know what you did wrong, and how you can fix it, and what happens if you keep doing the bad karma thing. If it is so universal, and effects everyone, we all have a right to know, and a right to protest it. All other forms are forms of unnecessary torture and unfair, and that means that karma must deal with itself as an unfair and bad karma thing. Consume itself and punish itself for being secretive and unfair towards everyone on the planet.

 

 

To me this is the same as disliking gravity. Yes I'm sure the parachutist who's parachute does not open hates gravity and thinks it is a dumb idea, but this is not going to have any effect on gravity. Or he can understand that there is gravity and take action to work with this law of nature like being very careful packing the chute or wearing a back up. Being mad at gravity is going to get him no where. 

 

1 hour ago, Jessup2 said:

 

 

I remember as a child, 9 years old, letting God and the Devil know one thing very seriously. I said, "if you two have some kind of fight, leave me out of it, leave me alone, let me be." I don't need your heaven, where there are a bunch of freaks that I would have to spend eternity with. I don't need your hell, because being punished for things I do proves there is no free will and no free choices, since the consequences according to this belief system say you don't "really" have a choice, except to burn in hell or suffer an eternity with people you don't like. Same thing, hell either way. So stop this and leave me out of your system, your personal fight, your idea of reality. 

 

 

I think this explains your understanding of karma. ;-)

Edited December 19, 2017 by dmattwads

[Jessup2]

Thank you for sharing. I love debates and open discussion.

 

So accordingly, then, if the BTK killer of Kansas can go on for almost 20 years with his sick torture, but doesn't feel guilty or bad about it, no karma?

Is he then born next time with defects, and no clue why he has them?

Is he somehow stuck as a poor man, with bad "luck", and with no clue why?

 

You see how this doesn't help anyone stuck with karma to work through... we need to know. I feel we have a right to know, immediately.

 

So if it all made him emotionally feel good and happy, then it gives him good karma to destroy others and torture them?

 

And what I mean with the wealth and power, is that they go hand in hand, giving people power to abuse and torture on a huge mass scale, like Trump. He is an awful person, and not deserving of so much wealth and power, and every wealthy person I have ever had to work for has been similar, unfair, greedy, awful... it appears that having that kind of a good life comes with torturing others. So if I see karma correctly, it appears that being like a pirate, take and destroy and have no mercy, no shame, no compassion, leaves you wealthy and powerful. And if we look at the East and the colorful past, abuse of power and warlords was always connected to increased powers and abuse, while these same horrible individuals make it into some kind of sick heaven.

 

I think all there is, is personal power. You can be an awful person, but if you save your energy and apply it correctly, you can do and have whatever you want. This is why the "masters" are worried about sharing "secrets", and then spread this idea of punishment. The only punishment appears to be in our own minds, or from a shared opinion by another group observing this. The only punishment appears to be wasting energy, getting it tied up in the senseless emotions of guilt or shame. And this punishment we do then to ourselves. Yet, since all things have already been destined, we are puppets, and these things are not our doing, and are not our creation. So the whole thing becomes a sick theater, with a bunch of puppet people doing the performance.

 

It is much more complicated for sure. All I say, is that we all have the right to know plus and minus karma, without exception, including past life carried forward, and the methods to correct it. Any secrets there, and all benefits, need to be clear, and not so wishy-washy pseudo whack BS... mainly because it is very obvious that it isn't working. All you have to do is to look around, the wrong people have the power, and the benefits, most of the time, and the attitudes and rotten personality tells us everything we need to know. Rotten and proud, greedy and selfish, and you get the benefits of this life by walking over the corpses of those who try and work hard and treat others fairly. You keep those benefits, and pass them on to your rotten children. Most all politicians, wealthy people, fit this profile, and they are ruining this planet and the lives of millions. Deaths, indirectly perhaps, by knowing that what they do, what they decide, causes death, just so they can have more money and power, and they do nothing to correct the situation, as an example.

 

So I hold my ground, karma is BS in this form, and is not as easy as gravity, in particular since we don't get to decide the fate or the future, it is already done.

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Jessup2

[Jessup2]

You get my point with gravity being out of our control, and not influenced by our attitude or decisions, or interactions with others. So it is nothing we can change, where the idea of karma is that it is something we can change and influence with our own behavior.

 

[Jessup2]

In this light, if karma is a force, and it reacts to our interactions and feelings, our thoughts and life... it is something we have a choice in, and can change. And it appears to me that the choice to be a rotten person appears to be positive in the karma of this life, when you look around at how the universe decides who gets to eat and who doesn't.

[ChiForce]

Your right to know rests on your realization....:)  Once you have become a realized cultivator, you will know.  Until then, you really don't know.  No one is denying this right to know but knowing...the degree in which you can know and how much, depends on your realization.  

 

What is a realized cultivator??  You have come to realize the essence of the Dharma and the Tao in your own life and you experienced signs to indicate that you are advancing.  Usually this involves with meditation and to train your mind to stop grasping thoughts and other habitual conditions... 

[Jessup2]

Sounds like exactly the propaganda I am complaining about...

You will know when you know... And Santa is coming down the chimney, better watch out... 

[ChiForce]

Hehehehhee...............nothing is free in one's path to realization....you don't put the work into it, you would get nothing.  You don't become enlightened and to become a highly realized being by complaining about karma....

Edited December 19, 2017 by ChiForce

[Jessup2]

I can see the rot in much of humanity. It certainly doesn't appear to have consequences. Hoping the meteor strikes soon...

[ChiForce]

9 minutes ago, Jessup2 said:

I can see the rot in much of humanity. It certainly doesn't appear to have consequences. Hoping the meteor strikes soon...

The problem is that you thought you are actually seeing things clearly.  I doubt it.  Karma does not ripen at a specific time table.  It may ripen long before you cease to exist in this world.  Relying Karma to pass some sorts of judgement to world events are nothing but a Christian way seeing the world.....  

Edited December 19, 2017 by ChiForce

[Maddie]

I still get the impression that you think of karma as an external force of divine judgment, rewards and punishments and being the case since we can not remember the actions that produced the majority of our karma then this system of divine judgment seems "unfair"

 

It's important to understand that karma is created by the mind, more specifically the fourth skandha (or aggregate) which is volitional formations or our judgments and opinions about things, or the will, or intention. These willful or intentional acts always leave an imprint or a conditioning upon the mind called a sankhara. These sankhara's as mental conditioning in turn affect our thoughts and actions both conscious and subconscious. To not understand how our mental conditioning can affect our experience of reality is to not understand the true nature of the mind. 

 

As a personal example when I was younger I was less kind than I am now, in fact at times I could be quite cruel. The acts of cruelty left an imprint upon my mind and became the "reality" that I saw. I saw kind people as "boring goody goodies" and I did not want to associate with them. So instead I associated with unkind people which made my life quiet miserable but at the time due to the conditioning of my mind this was my "normal" even though I didn't like it and suffered quite a bit. Once I reached a point that I got tired of the suffering that comes from being around base people I began to meditate and learn about karma. I realized that in the past when a sankhara of anger or cruelty played itself out even though it was spent and done I would typically react to it in such a way that I would generate more and similar sankhara's of anger and cruelty, thus perpetuating the cycle, yet I still did not like the suffering that resulted and became bitter and hated the world for "doing this to me". Once I began to meditate I began to notice this process and with this awareness I began to not react to old sankhara's and simply let them use themselves up. Naturally it took some effort not to react to them as I had in the past, as was my habit, but by doing this I gradually began to create new habits of not reacting to old sankhara's and instead reacting as kindly and compassionately as I could thus creating new happier and gentler sankhara's. My life began to turn around slowly but surely and old patterns I had been in for all my life up to that point began to change (for the better).

 

If bad karma is generated by the mind, so is good karma which means there is something that we can do about it. This is why when the Buddha was asked by people who and what he was, he would reply that he was awake. When we are asleep and dreaming the dreams play out and we do not have much control, but when we wake up we are conscious and can choose what we do. 

 

I do agree with your opinion about Trump personally and believe me I have pondered his karma more than I would probably care to. Here is the problem with him, and Samsara in general. Making the karma of wealth is pretty easy to be honest. All it takes is a little generosity. So what ever being Trump was in a past life had to have practiced generosity. You see this in Buddhist countries today, people love to give to the monks to make merit so their future will be prosperous. Pretty easy to do. What is much harder is developing wisdom. So if one is generous and makes merit they will very likely be wealthy in a future time. Unfortunately if they do not develop the mind there is great potential for the wealth to enable the defilements of the mind to have the opportunity to do what they were unable to do in the past when they did not have the means. Thus a lot of new bad karma is generated and the future is going to suck again and thus the Buddha said the cycle of Samsara is endless suffering. This is why its better to develop wisdom than only make merit. 

Edited December 19, 2017 by dmattwads

[C T]

Your karma dictates that you think in this particular way now. Who knows, yesterday maybe you thought differently, and tomorrow, different again, depending on what transpires in your mindstream moment to moment. When you are thirsty you normally dont address the thirst by going to sleep, right? Thats an easy one. Karma means when thirsty that state dictates that you take action to quench that thirst in order to quell that particular and temporary longing. Doing this wont accrue any negative or positive karma, but nonetheless there is karma at work - we call it neutral karma. But if that thirst is ignored, then what follows immediately is an opening or a potential for other outcomes to occur. In the resulting circumstances, either positive or negative karma begins to sprout and take root. 

 

Karma is simply volitional impulses, from the Buddhist pov. Its what one does with these impulses that dictate or set in motion a complex outflow of thoughts, memories, sensations, emotions, and reactions that accumulatively is called karmic tendencies ------ Good or bad merely the subjective takes on these tendencies. 

[ChiForce]

Now, you ask, who would pass judgements of your deeds in the Buddhist cosmology??  LOLOL...  Your own mind when you are experiencing the death bardo experience...hehehehehe.........

 

All the bad things you have done in this life time, they will be replayed in your own mind during your death bardo experience...a 49 days journey for your mind to decide where and when to reincarnate..if at all.  A highly realized cultivator does not even have a death bardo experience.  They will reborn again in the heavenly realm.  Maybe won't become reincarnated as mortals for another hundreds of years.....

 

Someone like Trump???   I would hate to be him during my last day on earth...hehehehe 

[bax44]

7 minutes ago, ChiForce said:

Now, you ask, who would pass judgements of your deeds in the Buddhist cosmology??  LOLOL...  Your own mind when you are experiencing the death bardo experience...hehehehehe.........

 

All the bad things you have done in this life time, they will be replayed in your own mind during your death bardo experience...a 49 days journey for your mind to decide where and when to reincarnate..if at all.  A highly realized cultivator does not even have a death bardo experience.  They will reborn again in the heavenly realm.  Maybe won't become reincarnated as mortals for another hundreds of years.....

 

Someone like Trump???   I would hate to be him during my last day on earth...hehehehe 

 

Source?

[ChiForce]

Just now, bax44 said:

 

Source?

The Tibetan Book of the Dead, of course...where else.....   

[thelerner]

16 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

I do agree with your opinion about Trump personally and believe me I have pondered his karma more than I would probably care to. Here is the problem with him, and Samsara in general. Making the karma of wealth is pretty easy to be honest. All it takes is a little generosity. So what ever being Trump was in a past life had to have practiced generosity.

Also not a fan, yet being outside his sphere, our view is necessarily distorted.  By the news sources we read and by our own prejudices.  If we really had inside sources and studied his life indepth, all the good, bad.. loving and bankrupt things he's done we'd probably have a far different opinion..maybe.  We need to beware being too attached to opinions made through distant telescopes, ie okay to make them but beware of 'knowing' they're the absolute truth. 

 

Everyday we move this world knocking over dominoes without knowing how they'll fall and in which directions they'll spill into.  So.. with this Karma stuff, be generous, not for reward but because we're in this world.. shareholders, tiny tiny co-creators..   So, help others and also realize that those in power trying to do good, will often create unintended consequences that wreak havoc elsewhere. 

[bax44]

1 minute ago, ChiForce said:

The Tibetan Book of the Dead, of course...where else.....   

 

oh. which book shall we worship today?

[thelerner]

4 minutes ago, bax44 said:

 

oh. which book shall we worship today?

In one of Richard Bach (Jonathon Livingston seagull) books Illusions; memoir of a reluctant messiah, he writes all books or newpapers can be used like prophetic bibles.  Think of the question, and open them up at random, start reading.. and there you go.  It may be mysterious, but you will get your answer. 

 

Can't vouch for it myself, but I've found all great writing is philosophical, even when its not. 

Edited December 19, 2017 by thelerner

[ChiForce]

Just now, bax44 said:

 

oh. which book shall we worship today?

Hehehehe..........you do realize that when we meditate, we experience a mini cycle of birth and dead...during these transient state the mind can make the jump to experience full liberation.  Some of us does not need to wait until in our dying days to experience.  We can experience it in our meditation and in our dream/sleep.  That's the whole point of the mind during the death bardo experience.  Of course, you don't know.  There are little reasons why you should even know this anyway.....  Is not really about knowing.  Is about if your mind can become liberated when your body is wasting away and only your consciousness and your conscious energy are left...

[bax44]

1 minute ago, ChiForce said:

Hehehehe..........you do realize that when we meditate, we experience a mini cycle of birth and dead...during these transient state the mind can make the jump to experience full liberation.  Some of us does not need to wait until in our dying days to experience.  We can experience it in our meditation and in our dream/sleep.  That's the whole point of the mind during the death bardo experience.  Of course, you don't know.  There are little reasons why you should even know this anyway.....  Is not really about knowing.  Is about if your mind can become liberated when your body is wasting away and only your consciousness and your conscious energy are left...

 

experiencing it first hand is of  course much different than buying into what any book says wholesale. that still doesnt constitute any type of proof of what you claimed in your other post, though.

[bax44]

2 minutes ago, thelerner said:

In one of Richard Bach (Jonathon Livingston seagull) books Illusions; memoir of a reluctant messiah, he writes all books or newpapers can be used like prophetic bibles.  Think of the question, and open them up at random, start reading.. and there you go.  It maybe mysterious, but you will get your answer. 

 

Can't vouch for it myself, but I've found all great writing is philosophical, even when its not. 

Well Im sure we could take any book and imagine a scenario where what its claiming or talking about "could" be true at any given time under the right circumstances. But theres also the danger of getting lost in the words.

[ChiForce]

1 minute ago, bax44 said:

 

experiencing it first hand is of  course much different than buying into what any book says wholesale. that still doesnt constitute any type of proof of what you claimed in your other post, though.

Which parts you need proofs???  I touched upon so many aspects of the death bardo experience though....

Edited December 19, 2017 by ChiForce

[bax44]

4 minutes ago, ChiForce said:

Which parts you need proofs???  I touched upon so many aspects of the death bardo experience though....

 

You made a lot of claims about what happens at the moments of death and beyond up to and including the ""49 days" where we can reincarnate..or not. Im aware that this may be metaphor-if so please tell me because taken literally it just sounds like more religious nonsense.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by bax44