Unfair Karma

[ljazztrumpet]

14 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

have not read all the other posts, but can add how my current view is.

 

You may be aware that I'm severely ill, I had a pretty hard life, rape and assault bugged me down with post traumatic stress disorder, raised in an unhealthy family. Then myself raising a child with developmental disorders ( who is now grown up and living in a sort of 'home') , staying with an husband who was not good for me because i could not rise the child alone. He needed constant care and I did not want to place him in a home at a young age. A nasty divorce, then at the same time losing my job.

 

then looking at my sister, with whom I share part of karma. She has a loving and caring husband,, a beautiful home, three sons of whom two are doing great, are balanced young men, now raising their own families. She's never been out of job.

 

should I be ' jealous' ?

 

On the contrary, i found lately that I would not want to change places. As she walks through life with an enormous anger in her heart, an anger that I recognize very well... the same anger our mum carried in her heart.

 

I've shed that anger, to me, that's the working of karma. My heart now is open and able of compassion, i'm very grateful for that. I really do prefer that over the life of my sister which looks good from the outside, but is devoid of , what to me, is what it is all about.

 

just my two cents of course.

BES - You sound like a very strong soul to want to continue on the earth plane after all that has happened to you. I’m sure you, whether wittingly or unwittingly, are a teacher/inspiration to those around you demonstrating a more effective, 'peace-bringing' outlook to have with Life, as well as how to live with a more open, compassionate heart. 

[ljazztrumpet]

8 hours ago, Bud Jetsun said:

In this one moment it remains optionally possible to forgive yourself, forgive all beings for all possibilities of what may have occurred or may be yet to occur, and this severing of self-imposed bonds enables a seed of self-compassion to grow.  This compassion for self reflects in compassion and appreciation for all beings and all circumstances conditional and non-conditional as an aspect of the whole of the Dao. 

Yeah, realizations like this can happen in a moment, but I think it’s a helpful idea to place an emphasis on the fact that one has planted a seed and it has to be cared for and allowed to grow. It’s something I continually need to remind myself because, in my own life experience, the time for the seed to continue to grow seems quite long relative to my lifespan. I really feel the physical lifespan is disproportionate to the time it takes for the seed to grow - IMO, I feel it would be much more helpful if the lifespan was akin to the oak tree, which, in a number of cases, is several hundred years. 

[ljazztrumpet]

5 hours ago, thelerner said:

Personally I admire the vegetarian diet for its ethical and environmental points, but it doesn't make people better, worse or happier then others.. at least not much. 

This has been my experience as well lerner..as surprised as I am about it!

[ljazztrumpet]

15 hours ago, Bud Jetsun said:

 

Thank you for your kind reply friend. I accept any/all logical errors and surrender them to you.  I lack even the capacity to know if I'm dreaming this moment and make no claims of knowing or methods of expressing Truth in the form of shapes of pixels on a screen. 

 

For the first few decades of my life I predominately ate dead animal carcass, joked I was a carnivore, and teased vegetarians and vegans for their diet choices, so I don't judge anyone for whatever they want to eat, because it's them who has to live in a vessel composed from bits of the energy of torture and murder for whatever reasons not important for me to understand. 

 

Neither of us understand how our bodies take in some mashed up food energy and convert it into the collective of trillions of living cell's energy cooperating together to compose our bodies.  We don't even know the shapes of the organs in the cells we're manufacturing billions of daily, or understand the functions or shapes beyond crude dissection and microscopy observations.  Diet choice and other actions/karma become dependently arising on a beings awareness and compassion.  When a being embraces compassion towards their own self-awareness, they reflect this compassion towards other beings.  With compassion for themselves and other beings, no flavor preferences justify the torture and murder other beings to satisfy ones own fleeting mouth/tongue/belly sensations.   As a function of not living the karma of choosing themselves or others to torture and murder other living beings, they don't build themselves from that type of energy or karma (our choices and actions). 

 

With awareness of the existence of the sentience and reality and perspective of all beings, choosing a non-vegan meal choice feels as twisted and objectionable as if someone asked you to torture and murder a loved pet dog/cat/bunny/bird and gut it and chop up it's body for their preference in sensory amusement. 

 

Fortunately, we don't have to make tomorrows meal choices today anymore than we have to live tomorrows opportunity to express karma and energy today.  Just this one moment alone encompasses the whole of the real choice in thought/action. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Unlimited Love Buddy Bud Budson..I agree with some of what you say here for sure. I’d sooner give my own life than torture another living being so I could simply continue to exist on this physical plane. What kind of life would it be after that anyway?

 

As far as murder goes - Obviously that word usually has a negative connotation. But what of cultures throughout history that have practiced consuming the flesh of living beings (including humans) who have crossed over? Some have done this to show that, once the physical body dies, the spirit ceases to exist in it. It’s always been a mystery to me about people who are so concerned with a loved ones remains after their spirit has left that body. Actually, to be perfectly honest, it has always kind of creeped me out! Or, perhaps, I just feel badly for a person who believes the spirit of Life is contained only within the physical body. I’ve never seen a dead body and perceived it to be anything other than an inanimate object, devoid of any human life..For me, it becomes a different kind of life, kind of like looking at soil or earth. The vehicle has ceased to be used by the spirit and, now, it becomes new potential soil/matter for physicality again somewhere down the line. The loved one I knew in that body is very ‘alive’ and free to me - released from such a small, confined form. There is absolutely zero identification left for me with a body of a loved one who has crossed over. But their spirit is very much 'alive' and BIG to me now. In certain instances, depending on the relationship, the feeling can be that their 'with me' in a positive manner. 

 

I’ve experimented with total vegetarianism in the past for the express purpose of seeing if it would ‘raise my vibration’, or simply just make me feel better. Surprisingly to me, it had no effect. I still don’t want to eat any meat of any being that has died a painful death, but I no longer look at doing this as something that changes my emotional state. I’ve talked to a number of other people about this over the years and their experiences seem to parallel mine. But, that being said, there is a big exception to this. On a fair amount of occasions a person who decides to switch to vegetarianism has been living a very unhealthy lifestyle of junk food/fast food/etc. In their case, the decision to switch to vegetarianism is a symbol of totally changing the way they take care of their physical bodies. So the health turnaround that many experience is because they have started to eat much healthier across the board, high quality foods, not because they gave up meat. Anyway, before my own experimentations with this and talking with other people about it, the idea that you expressed originally about vegetarianism made complete logical sense to me and, still, I’m not sure why this isn’t the case in my practical life and those of some others I know. 

 

Another interesting tidbit, the few very great spiritual healers throughout history ate and slept very little on a daily basis. They were vibrating so high, they were so full of love consciousness, they were living on that energy. In one of the spiritual healing groups I was in, there was a teaching that you could be able to drink poison and not have it effect you negatively. Not that this was EVER encouraged!LOL.. But it came about because the person on who the group’s teachings were based (many believe it was the big JC’s last lifetime as a healer in 20th century Germany) went through many experiences that would of killed other people and survived.

 

I actually have a respect for those ‘born-again’ christian type groups who stick their hand in a bag of rattlesnakes and things of that nature. I mean as long as they don’t have dependents and are ready to cross over. Simply because it shows they truly take their spiritual development seriously and are willing to put their life on the line for it. It really seems that’s the type of dedication needed - or, at least, the type of dedication Life eventually forces a person into anyway.

 

Anyway Buddy Budlove, I hope you don’t think I’m messing with you too much. I’ve read some of your other posts and I feel like you have good humility and compassion chops..and whenever I come across people like you, I want to ‘pick your brain’ so to speak - It’s like a, ‘How is that cat embodying that state to that degree and how can I do it?!’ I am now convinced that Life has put people who are more loving and compassionate than I am into my life (as, like, my main friends I mean) because, years ago, I expressed that desire ‘to the Universe’ to want to really rise in love consciousness like the spiritual healers I so much admire. 

 

(Working on sending you the) 

Unlimited Love,

-Lex 

Edited December 23, 2017 by ljazztrumpet
spahling

[Bud Jetsun]

If you willingly cut the flesh from your own body as your own consensual loving choice and offered it to me in compassion for the nutrients it contains, I would graciously eat your gift given in compassion. 

 

If the flesh came from something that didn't consensually donate its vessel for my nutrition, I would not eat it to not support the murder of that consciousness and theft of its vessel. 

 

I've bottle nursed piglets, sheep, cows and goats. I've raised chickens from chicks. They all have dreams, personalities and their reality models are no more or less correct than my own.  I don't need to choose actions which impose aspects into their realities which I wouldn't wish to be reflected into my own (like being kept in cages and slaughtered for the theft of their vessels). 

 

I also experienced nothing profound from beginning vegetarian, and it was due to still eating dairy and eggs. The milk/cheese is available because they take the new calf from the mother cow shortly after birth so it doesn't drink up that milk, and if the cow is male it's slaughtered for veal after a few months of having its head locked between metal poles standing in its own accumulating feces pile until the day it gets its head released from the bars only to get its throat slit and hung upside down to bleed out.  While I was vegetarian it took visiting a cow dairy farm and sheep dairy to witness what I was paying others to do before I became vegan, as I knew it was not something I would ethically choose to do myself, so paying someone else to do what I wouldn't felt as cowardly and disagreeable as hiring an assassin. 

 

After becoming vegan rather than vegetarian, I did notice a spiritual difference, though I wasn't doing it for that reason nor expecting to notice any difference.  I don't know if the difference is from karmic choices, the energy of the matter building my body as daily billions of cells die and billions of new cells replace them, or whatever mental or physical energy effects may be related, but I'm grateful in this one moment to experience living unburdened and in unbreakable peace. 

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud

[ljazztrumpet]

Wonderful sentiments Bud..thanks for sharing. I love your insights on compassion and the animal souls  I can identify somewhat having experience with 'rescue kitties'. Exactly - the love your neighbor thing has to extend to animals as well..very good point! 

 

I think my take on the whole vegetarian/vegan thing as far as it effecting 'spiritual vibration/consciousness' is that it matters where the food comes from, but not if it's vegetarian or not. What I am specifically thinking of is milk/cheese/etc. that come from organic/private farms where the animals are treated well and have good lives. In that case, I would think dairy and eggs would be a welcome addition to the diet. This is kind of how I see my diet nowadays.. Protein from dairy/eggs/shakes and, in light of this discussion, I really know I should be looking for organic, farm-raised.. and, then, carbs from grains, fruits, vegs.. Also, in this day and age, we have the whole meal shake option.. Lifting weights, I am a big fan of the meal replacement/mass building shakes that have natural protein, carbs, and vitamins.. Things like Hemp protein can be quite effective...I think as we evolve as a species there are a larger number of us that we are finding more humane ways to consume food. And, then, I also see the possibility of not needing any material sustenance..the whole 'breatharian' thing. Like that cat Prahlad Jani who hasn't eaten or drank anything for over 70 years.. Just lives off life force/pranic energy. Well I know this is possible and quite effective from the spiritual healer I've had a chance to encounter at a very high level. Interesting tidbit, when this guy was on the earth plane and was healing mass amounts of people, he really didn't need to eat or sleep..when the German gov't prohibited him from healing, that's when he would eat/sleep more.

 

I experienced this on a small level when traveling with medical doctors up and down the east coast of the USA..We really wouldn't get hungry or tired after long hours as long as we were serving the people with the free medical lectures on spiritual healing.. We were in this energy, that could be physically felt as current many times, known as the 'healing stream' in English.. I just think it was a high heart/love energy that existed because of our intentions to help suffering people. Some of those MD's were pretty amazing in their kindheartedness, compassion, and overall spiritual energy.. They traveled all over the world on their own dime giving these lectures on spiritual healing. (Like some of these guys would go up to, like, Yellowknife, in the Yukon and really remote areas!) Very inspirational for me to spend time with these folks...I know what's possible..at least to some degree!

[Small Fur]

On December 19, 2017 at 10:23 AM, Jessup2 said:

Hello all,

 

Meditating on karma ideas, letting them float around, I have some pretty mixed feelings about it. But mainly it comes across as a dumb idea without merit, unless you are capable of remembering why you have it, and why it is bad. Good karma everyone would take in stride, without a fuss.

 

Like with any form of "punishment", being punished without knowing why leads to disturbed people with problems. So unless we know what we did wrong, and how not to repeat this, or exactly what it is, this is again some mumbo-jumbo dumb idea that can never be understood. Working through our karma becomes just another crap pile to deal with without any clear definition.

 

To underline my point, reincarnation and/or the dark wave place have to be included in the description. If you simply get tortured for the wrongs you do immediately, with bad health or losing your wealth, it would be instant karma and I would see it as a fair system and cheer for it. But if it only happens after you die, and you get punished for a while, then get reborn with a life full of issues, but have no idea why you have them, what good is it? You have to be able to connect the poor conditions with what it is you did wrong in order that you don't repeat this same behavior. So a system that keeps you in the dark about your crimes and why you are being punished is a totally dumb idea invented by somebody who needs to make people afraid of being bad to each other. Simply a bad idea invention, no better than the Christian hell idea. And I'm not buying it. 

 

If karma is a cause and effect, such as smoking causing issues with lung health, and you know it will cause this and still smoke, then it is a force of nature and you have a choice to do something about it. The source of the problem is clear, the consequences are clear.

 

All this smoke and mirror magic karma garbage has to stop. I see way too many rotten people with all the money and power, and I don't feel like we should wait for karma to fix that problem, or trust that it is doing the job. 

 

So in my humble opinion, karma is a dumb idea unless you know what you did wrong, and how you can fix it, and what happens if you keep doing the bad karma thing. If it is so universal, and effects everyone, we all have a right to know, and a right to protest it. All other forms are forms of unnecessary torture and unfair, and that means that karma must deal with itself as an unfair and bad karma thing. Consume itself and punish itself for being secretive and unfair towards everyone on the planet.

 

I remember as a child, 9 years old, letting God and the Devil know one thing very seriously. I said, "if you two have some kind of fight, leave me out of it, leave me alone, let me be." I don't need your heaven, where there are a bunch of freaks that I would have to spend eternity with. I don't need your hell, because being punished for things I do proves there is no free will and no free choices, since the consequences according to this belief system say you don't "really" have a choice, except to burn in hell or suffer an eternity with people you don't like. Same thing, hell either way. So stop this and leave me out of your system, your personal fight, your idea of reality. 

 

How about some reflective thoughts?

 

 

The existence of natural law that has been conceptualized into “karma” can be better understood when experienced:

-without judgement but factually

-non-linearly and through out time

-and synergistically rather than discretely

 

About Awareness

First, it is important to say that it is possible to know, rather distinctly, facets of existence that have contributed to ‘your’ karma. Like any aspect of self that remains unconscious and unrecognized- whether these are the many paths in bloodline of your own ancestral history that came before you and have so integrally shaped the person you became; the complexity of internal bio-mechanisms of your own physiological body; the geographical or government systems that shape your society, culture and personal livelihood; or the nature of your own soul and transcendent self; the lack of recognition doesn’t change the fact that it is in perpetual affect. Just as you can trace your heritage, learn bio-anatomy, become an expert in governmental processes, learn the topography of your world and its ecological systems; so to can you become aware of your past lives, their conditions and how it has informed the person you now are. That you don’t recognize these things is about your own ignorance or unconsciousness- be this intellectually in knowledge and information, through emotional anger and fear, or lack of subtle and spiritually developed insight. It is all there to known and not even just by you yourself, but by all souls who are conscious.

 

About Judgement and the Factual, Also What Comprises the Field of experience as ‘Self’

Imposing emotionally ladened and preconceived value judgements upon a natural phenomena of any kind (even the ‘artifical’ in the human condition) prevents true witness of all conditions. This is not to say one cannot discern, but to become psychologically deluded is not a direct path to clarity in insight.

 

The nature of karma is as a fact. And as a natural way, it is without psychological bias. At its base, it is cause and effect. There may be proclivities to how those causes and effects occur, but as we know in any science, while A+B overwhelming tends to lead to C, there are always exceptions. Not only are there sometimes minor or unusual circumstances of exceptions, but when you expand your understanding and consciousness to recognize the broad, deep and complex system of intervening variables of ‘your’ existence that are so numerous, no one being alone can even begin to logically and systematically compute it in totally. Consider the working of small unseen forces- be these things like bacteria or energies; to more base things like the numerous working of cells, organs, and network of what informs the ‘mind’; to the simultaneous actions of individuals in proximity, let alone those who are at a distance; to the movement of societies, environmental forces, and then the universe… then now you have only even begun to consider very, very, very minutely a finite amount of factors in the infinite multitude of endless variables which converge to make a moment, let alone the idea of a single discrete individual- the individual who is a field of reception through which all these dimensions and forces pass through.

 

About Non-Linearity and Synergy

So now you have begun to have a sense of the field of experience that passes through the vessel to become integrated as part of ‘’you’, and numerous factors that existed in a single moment to create this experience. You are made of many parts, layers and dimensions, all which appear discrete but are actually both their own in addition to comprising the larger ‘you’. But then the picture gets even bigger. You think of time as linear, but in reality, past, present and future are all happening simultaneously. So what you were, what think you are, and what you will be, have will and are all occurring. Not only this, but there are many different variations of similar and different scenarios occurring concurrently. And this happening not just to ‘you’ but to everyone and everything around you. 

 

So then, what is karma?

It is the simultaneous movement of all things that you recognize only finitely (usually due to the level of impact) as the predominate thread of your sense of discrete self in a given moment. All these things have gone to inform ‘you’ and become ‘you’. YOU are cause AND effect. In this condition, you are a karmic being.

 

Resolving Karma

So then how you do resolve karma? In this sea of infinite waves that you are, lies the ‘present moment’. Present moment is not dependent on time because it is itself not time. The present moment experientially is your transcendent state of witness. When in a given moment, you find love peace happiness or anger hate and rage, then in each moment you affect all things, in all time. Of course the degree that you do so depends on many factors, but in the actions of presence- all other conditions in ‘time', change. Which means you change or your ‘karma’ changes. Do you have to be aware of ALL things for that to happen? No. But it helps to be at least self-aware. And the more aware you are, as in the more conscious you are, then the deeper your resolve or impact across time, space, dimension, and in relation to all other spirits that compromise that soul that you are.

 

 

So rather than making decisions and taking actions from what has been or what could be out of fear, be present with this moment: live in health, in loving-kindness and make this moment whole in wellness. That is all you really need to know and do. All other things will be and do as they are. But that doesn’t have to change the integrity in the fundamental truth of your own being.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Small Fur

[Miroku]

On 23. 12. 2017 at 12:32 AM, thelerner said:

So.. if a vegetarian 'suffers' its not because of eating tortured murdered carcasses, its because of.. because they don't eat meat!  If they did they'd be happy, well adjusted, less judgemental people..  By your logic, if a vegetarian suffers, its for the same reason an omnivore suffers.. a diet that goes against Karma.  They need a Big Mac to get right with Karma.  It is simple. 

 

Sorry for the sarcasm but the dark side of believing in Karma is that the rich are good, the poor and suffering are bad (and deserve it) and that's the way it should be.  And one points toward those with different beliefs as being Karmically challenged. 

 

Personally I admire the vegetarian diet for its ethical and environmental points, but it doesn't make people better, worse or happier then others.. at least not much. 

Sorry to awaken the thread but that "dark side of Karma is a misconception". Maybe it works like that in hinduism but in buddhism ti for sure does not work like that. Suffering do deserve their suffering but are not in anyway bad and should be helped and rich and happy are not necessarily good, they just did good stuff and deserve what they have. The notion of somebody being good or bad seems to me to be quite western tbh. Maybe somebody already made thist point clear dunno. Sorry if yes.

[Kar3n]

13 hours ago, Miroku said:

Sorry to awaken the thread but that "dark side of Karma is a misconception". Maybe it works like that in hinduism but in buddhism ti for sure does not work like that. Suffering do deserve their suffering but are not in anyway bad and should be helped and rich and happy are not necessarily good, they just did good stuff and deserve what they have. The notion of somebody being good or bad seems to me to be quite western tbh. Maybe somebody already made thist point clear dunno. Sorry if yes.

So in saying the rich did good stuff and deserve what they have does that imply that the suffering did bad stuff and also deserve it?

 

The notion of good or bad is classic duality. Both Hindu and Buddhist sects promote non-duality.

 

 

[Marblehead]

I promote non-duality too.

 

I do not promote the concept of karma as viewed as anything except natural cause and effect.

 

 

[ChiForce]

1 hour ago, Kar3n said:

So in saying the rich did good stuff and deserve what they have does that imply that the suffering did bad stuff and also deserve it?

 

The notion of good or bad is classic duality. Both Hindu and Buddhist sects promote non-duality.

 

 

Yeah...we should stay away from associating wealth and materialism to being a good karma vs being poor and poverty.  You can be poor but managing to live a sustainable life style and with little to no illness.  You live a good life...and to die in a peaceful way with little suffering.   

[Miroku]

2 hours ago, Kar3n said:

So in saying the rich did good stuff and deserve what they have does that imply that the suffering did bad stuff and also deserve it?

 

The notion of good or bad is classic duality. Both Hindu and Buddhist sects promote non-duality.

 

 

Yes they do deserve it, meaning they did something which resulted in this kind of effect. Just like marblhead said it is a cause and effect. Being generous results in being born in rich family or society and not experiencing poverty. Does it say anything about them as a person? No. Does it mean their actions are going to be virtous? No. Just like poor can be generous, the rich can cling to every penny. But each will get what they sow. But that does not mean we should not help people who suffer!

 

Quote

I am the owner of my actions [karma], heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir…

-The Buddha

It is nice to say that somebody promotes nonduality, but unless you are in a nondual state the duality is something you have to take into account. That is why we have good and bad actions and why there are some rules how to behave like not kill or steal etc. It is good if you can go beyond that, but just like Padmasambhava said: 

Quote

Although my view is higher than the sky,
My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour.

He was already realize but still acted according to the law of Karma.

[Kar3n]

25 minutes ago, Miroku said:

Yes they do deserve it, meaning they did something which resulted in this kind of effect. Just like marblhead said it is a cause and effect. Being generous results in being born in rich family or society and not experiencing poverty. Does it say anything about them as a person? No. Does it mean their actions are going to be virtous? No. Just like poor can be generous, the rich can cling to every penny. But each will get what they sow. But that does not mean we should not help people who suffer!

 

It is nice to say that somebody promotes nonduality, but unless you are in a nondual state the duality is something you have to take into account. That is why we have good and bad actions and why there are some rules how to behave like not kill or steal etc. It is good if you can go beyond that, but just like Padmasambhava said: 

He was already realize but still acted according to the law of Karma.

Rather than cause and effect it feels more like judgment when reading the written word. A person is poor, therefore, they are judged as having done something bad at some point. A person is rich, they must have done something really good. Good, bad, rich or poor are subjective terms at best. Rich does not always imply wealth, nor does poor allude to poverty stricken, good for one, may be bad for another...

 

Guess that is why I never really got on the karma train. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Thank you for your reply.

[Miroku]

4 hours ago, Kar3n said:

Rather than cause and effect it feels more like judgment when reading the written word. A person is poor, therefore, they are judged as having done something bad at some point. A person is rich, they must have done something really good. Good, bad, rich or poor are subjective terms at best. Rich does not always imply wealth, nor does poor allude to poverty stricken, good for one, may be bad for another...

 

Guess that is why I never really got on the karma train. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Thank you for your reply.

Okay we seem to miss each other on several points apparently.

First of all it is not a judgement. I am not an authority and not realized therefore my usage of words is very clumsy so lets look at it this way. Karma is the same way like poking into a bee's nest if you poke into a bee nest you get lots of angry bees going after you and hurting you. The same happens if you do unwholesome actions. If you do something nice, like for example sincerely complimenting someones dress or helping a friend in need then it is possible they will help you back or tell you something nice which will make in turn you feel happy.

The whole thing about words "rich" and "poor" sorry but you are intentionally misreading and relativising it. When I said rich I mean abundance of money and when I say poor I mean lack of it. But yeah if you have good karma you are also gonna be "rich" in this way.

[Lost in Translation]

Karma is. To say karma is 'good' or 'bad' is to imply that you (the general you, not the specific you) understand the full range of cause and effect and that you have perfect knowledge of what is happening and why. That's quite a thing to imply! I don't have that knowledge so I try not to judge karma, which reminds me of a guy who had a son with a broken leg that ended up saving his life. I'm sure someone around here knows what I'm talking about.

[Nungali]

" Unfair ?  ...... Unfair !    What makes you think life should be 'fair' in the first place ?  What, you think there is some Gid sitting up there or some mechanism that takes your human values and judgements of what is fair or not and should make a law of cause or effect and then project that back into your environment so it operates for you ? "

 

" Goodness !   You sound just like my father, thats the exact sort of thing he would say ! "

 

" Well .... your father was a very smart man . "        (old remembered conversation with friends sister who was complaining life was not fair ) .

 

Karma can not be unfair  .... you pollute your water ; your water is polluted ... and the further  effects of that effect you . You jump of a high cliff - you splat .  You give out your anger to others constantly - you live an angry and unhappy life . You disdain dogs and look at them with contempt - the growl and bark at you .      What is unfair about that ?

 

Or are we talking the 'other type' of 'karma' ... where I get to live in white, western, material, opulence or high caste or class,  because, obviously , I am or was a great kind spiritual person, somehow, at sometime. And those who slave to make my products and have a poor lifestyle .. well ... karma ... they must be or have been 'bad' .

 

Now, if you are one of the slaves .. living in shit and working long hours to supply products to the opulent and privileged few ... dont rebel or overthrow ... karma ... you will get your reward in the future  ... after this life though  .

 

That type of 'karma'  ?   

[Nungali]

Then, there is 'karma' in the Japanese sense   .  I like that concept .

[Miroku]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

" Unfair ?  ...... Unfair !    What makes you think life should be 'fair' in the first place ?  What, you think there is some Gid sitting up there or some mechanism that takes your human values and judgements of what is fair or not and should make a law of cause or effect and then project that back into your environment so it operates for you ? "

 

" Goodness !   You sound just like my father, thats the exact sort of thing he would say ! "

 

" Well .... your father was a very smart man . "        (old remembered conversation with friends sister who was complaining life was not fair ) .

 

Karma can not be unfair  .... you pollute your water ; your water is polluted ... and the further  effects of that effect you . You jump of a high cliff - you splat .  You give out your anger to others constantly - you live an angry and unhappy life . You disdain dogs and look at them with contempt - the growl and bark at you .      What is unfair about that ?

 

Or are we talking the 'other type' of 'karma' ... where I get to live in white, western, material, opulence or high caste or class,  because, obviously , I am or was a great kind spiritual person, somehow, at sometime. And those who slave to make my products and have a poor lifestyle .. well ... karma ... they must be or have been 'bad' .

 

Now, if you are one of the slaves .. living in shit and working long hours to supply products to the opulent and privileged few ... dont rebel or overthrow ... karma ... you will get your reward in the future  ... after this life though  .

 

That type of 'karma'  ?   

That is how uneducated hindus often see karma to be like. This is why when a wife's husband dies they either cast her out of the community or bully her or let her be buried with him alive, because they believe she has a "bad" karma. Or it was/is also used to justify the caste system. Ofc this is just usage of the philosophy as a part of a system of opression. Which is naturally wrong as it sees karma in a fatalistic light and allows many evils.