Qi, Jing and Shen - Nourishment Thread!

[Rara]

Blessings this Christmas

 

I have just been reading the following article: http://www.activeherb.com/blog/what-is-jing-in-tcm.html I've been curious about excessive protein intake as too much can harm the kidneys which are supposedly vital for maintaining jing. I do a lot of exercise and of course, the protein buzz is the fashion of this decade.

 

I've never been too clued up on TCM or the terms mentioned in the title so I thought I'd check out a "dummies guide", of sorts.

 

The "Three Treasures" appear to be somewhat dependant on each other so I thought I'd ask about the ways each are cultivated and maintained.

 

E.G

 

Qi - I relate this to energy produced through breath, food and exercise.

 

Jing - As the article states, like DNA. Something that can be sabbotaged/depleted. But isn't the maintenence of this simply going to enhance "Qi"? That is the lifeforce after all...

 

Shen - Spirit. Maintained through good mental practice. Singing? Dancing? General enjoyment? Again, doesn't this all come back to enhancing overally Qi/energy?

 

Thank you in advance for any assistance. Please keep replies entry level!

[Miroku]

Well as far as I understand this topic the thing with jing is that it is divided into two. Pre-natal and post-natal jing. You cannot really do much about the pre-natal as that is the amount you got from you parents, but you can slow down the process of using it. Post-natal jing can be nourished and is gained through good food, breathing etc..

If you do enough zhang zhuang and some moving qigong and relax in general, then you should be able to have enough energy and not use up much of your jing. But that is at least what I think. So it might be wrong as I am quite a beginner myself.

[Rara]

Thanks Miroku! To speak of it scientifically, pre-natal would be the "genetics" and how we are probably likely to die based on what runs in the family (both by cause and timing-wise)

 

For example, the majority of my family on both sides have had heart disease later in life and it has been the biggest factor in their deaths. Therefore, practices that reduce the risk would be methods of "preserving jing" (this being the post-natal) If say, some died around age 75 and others around 85, there would be steps that I could take to take me closer to 85...

 

What, then is qi, really? Is this word not interchangeable with post-natal jing? Or am I getting muddled with the language used here? 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Rara
I forgot a sentence. I always forget something first time :)

[Miroku]

I really dont think qi is the same like post-natal jing. Post-natal jing has to be changed into qi and is stored in kidneys I think ... not sure there. Qi is everywhere.

I am keeping myself from saying that qi is blood or sth and that jing is genetics or sth. I just leave it as it is without putting too much western medicine into it. But yeah if your family has some problems like that it is wise to work with that. But if you do qigong then I think it is taken care of automaticaly. But maybe not, my only experience is eagle in the nest and that is complete system.

I don't know what qi is. I think it is best to learn to feel it as it doesn't quite fit anything to be honest.

[Rara]

15 hours ago, Miroku said:

I really dont think qi is the same like post-natal jing. Post-natal jing has to be changed into qi and is stored in kidneys I think ... not sure there. Qi is everywhere.

 

Ah! This reminds me, I belive someone on this forum once said there are 3 Qis. Depends which chinese character you're looking at as they mean different things. I could be wrong but I'm sure that's what he said.

[exorcist_1699]

I think  people have to be reminded  that TCM's concepts about  jing, qi, shen are different from  those of the Taoist alchemy . For example, when  Taoist alchemy talks about the pre-heavenly jing, it refers to some kind of energy, always accompanied with sex pressure,  arisen from a Mindless state , that can  cure many diseases and enhance our mind ...etc ( for at pre-heavenly level, jing ,qi and Shen are a unity, inseparable ), while TCM  always refers it as something pre-natal , mostly related to  whether our parents are healthy or  strong enough or not..

Edited January 1, 2018 by exorcist_1699

[Phoenix3]

On 23/12/2017 at 2:25 PM, Rara said:

I've been curious about excessive protein intake as too much can harm the kidneys which are supposedly vital for maintaining jing

 

Is a vegetarian diet important for maintaining high Jing levels then? 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Phoenix3

[windwalker]

Qi magazine issue 28 covers a lot what was posted and asked about plues provides some not commonly known information from a different perspective.

 

http://www.qimagazine.com/qimagazine00.html

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2018 by windwalker

[Rara]

10 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

Is a vegetarian diet important for maintaining high Jing levels then? 

 

I doubt that. I imagine "sensible" meat portions are fine. But I'm no nutritionist!

[DaoKeeper]

Well, mapping jing qi and shen to science...
That is interesting topic!

If we talk about three then:
jing - sexuality, libido etc. It is being depleted by excessive sex, and being restored by rare and expensive plants like ginseng, saffron etc.
qi - is something like day-to-day energy. Better think about food and practice to replenish it
shen - mind. Shen is being depleted if you don't have enough sleep or has too much thinking work (sometimes both). Shen is being restored with sleep and calm meditation.

All three are important. All three are interfering your life independently. All three are engaged to one system - human.

However in terms of nourishing and food I'd better use Wuxing 5 elements concept. It easier to map it to the real ingredients and find balance.

Good Luck

[Miroku]

58 minutes ago, DaoKeeper said:

Well, mapping jing qi and shen to science...
That is interesting topic!

If we talk about three then:
jing - sexuality, libido etc. It is being depleted by excessive sex, and being restored by rare and expensive plants like ginseng, saffron etc.
qi - is something like day-to-day energy. Better think about food and practice to replenish it
shen - mind. Shen is being depleted if you don't have enough sleep or has too much thinking work (sometimes both). Shen is being restored with sleep and calm meditation.

All three are important. All three are interfering your life independently. All three are engaged to one system - human.

However in terms of nourishing and food I'd better use Wuxing 5 elements concept. It easier to map it to the real ingredients and find balance.

Good Luck

Thank you.

Could you please clarify what depletion of shen means? For me it is very strange to imagine mind being depleted.What are the signs of depleting?

 

I wouldn't say that jing is just sexuality and libido and things like that. Shouldn't it be the life-force itself? That is much more than just sexuality and stuff. I'd say it is more like and inner spark of vitality and basically the base on which other things (qi and shen) stand are attached to.

[Miroku]

Also to build on what DaoKeeper said, every extreme depletes jing, qi and shen. The middle way is really the safest route, unless you have so much pre-natal jing you can share (like many who lived over 100 seem to have based on their long life recepies). 

[Rara]

On 11/01/2018 at 10:22 PM, Miroku said:

Could you please clarify what depletion of shen means? For me it is very strange to imagine mind being depleted.What are the signs of depleting?

 

I think I know. Because I have a very mentally draining job. Recruitment, goal orientated - I often find I get exhausted from the amount of passion that I use in finding the right people to fit the right positions.

 

Some days, I may not have the time to do all the physical things I want to in the day, for one. But yes, sleep and meditation is also craved to help restore the mind/spirit aspect.

[vonkrankenhaus]

On 12/23/2017 at 2:01 PM, Miroku said:

I don't know what qi is. I think it is best to learn to feel it as it doesn't quite fit anything to be honest

 

We say that "Qi is movement arising from the relative potentials of YinYang at any given point on any spectrum of matter or energy".

 

No polarity = no "Qi".

 

Most people today assume Qi is some kind of substance. Perhaps a universal substance that pervades everything, or even a specific substance that changes into other substances.

 

"Scientists" have been looking for this "substance" called "Qi" and cannot find it.

 

Instead, they find various ordinary things they can measure, like heat, metabolic activity, bio-electricity, and so on.

 

Also, "scientists" have been looking all over human body for "acupuncture channels" or "meridians" that qi is supposed (they interpret) to flow through - something like water running in a water pipe.

 

They will not find that.

 

Because Qi is just a function of polarity. Not a substance, not a part of the body, not solid, liquid, or gas.

 

Human body has many polarities - up/down, inside/outside, orthosympathetic/parasympathetic, various electrical polarities, chemical polarities, etc.

 

Many substances and parts of body are involved in these polarities - not just one.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Small Fur]

On December 23, 2017 at 6:25 AM, Rara said:

Blessings this Christmas

 

I have just been reading the following article: http://www.activeherb.com/blog/what-is-jing-in-tcm.html I've been curious about excessive protein intake as too much can harm the kidneys which are supposedly vital for maintaining jing. I do a lot of exercise and of course, the protein buzz is the fashion of this decade.

 

I've never been too clued up on TCM or the terms mentioned in the title so I thought I'd check out a "dummies guide", of sorts.

 

The "Three Treasures" appear to be somewhat dependant on each other so I thought I'd ask about the ways each are cultivated and maintained.

 

E.G

 

Qi - I relate this to energy produced through breath, food and exercise.

 

Jing - As the article states, like DNA. Something that can be sabbotaged/depleted. But isn't the maintenence of this simply going to enhance "Qi"? That is the lifeforce after all...

 

Shen - Spirit. Maintained through good mental practice. Singing? Dancing? General enjoyment? Again, doesn't this all come back to enhancing overally Qi/energy?

 

Thank you in advance for any assistance. Please keep replies entry level!

 

 

The Three Treasures (San Bao 三寶)

The Three Treasures refer to three fundamental and broad categories of energetic forces that help to manifest, sustain and transform life in the 人 ( ren / rén ) or human being. Each treasure is an essence that when in mass will manifest as states, movements and substances. Therefore, while one can recognize them through form, it is important to be able to ultimately recognize them and cultivate them from their formless state.

 

The proper cultivation of these treasures allow for longevity, and when done at the utmost level in harmonization or unity of all three essences, it allows for immortality. 

Its transformative path is as follows:

 

Jing into—>  Qi into —> Shen = thus resulting in longevity or immortality (if fully harmonized)

 

 

 

In the following synopsis I have given a general overview of their concepts, their locations, and some of their various types, as well as a few notes on their rudimentary categories for cultivation and damage.

 

Jing  精

Definition: categorically an essence of the primoridal force in potential that forms the material basis for human life

Location: stored in the kidneys

 

Commonly Referenced Types: 

Pre-natal- the creative potential inherent before birth. (also referred to as congenital or reproductive jing)

Post-natal- the continued creative potential acquired after birth (also referred to as acquired jing or jing of the organs)

 

Cultivation Methods: conservation, internal and external alchemical practices

Damaged: materially through seminal loss and menstruation, excessive use of will, usage of stimulants such as coffee

 

Note: It is also damaged through essential loss by habitual objectification in lust, such as through watching poronography (which also damages shen)

 

 

 

 

Qi   气

 

Definition: used as a stand alone word, it generically refers categorically to energy- specifically, ones vital or life force. However, qi is NOT one thing. There actually exists a variety of different forms of qi, so at higher levels of practice or cultivation, you are learning to discern and refine the various manifestations of qi. A few of the most commonly discussed ones are listed below in ‘types’.

 

Commonly  Referenced types:

Wei qi- defensive qi    location: exterior of skin surface surrounding the body

Yuan qi- source qi      location: accessed through the source point on a meridian

Ying qi- nutritive qi     location: often associated with blood and its travel through vessels

Kong qi- air qi            location: often association with lungs

Gu qi- grain qi             location: often associated with stomach and spleen

Zhen qi- upright qi      location: not a location but a quality of qi

 

Cultivation Methods: dietary habits, life style, various forms of movement practices

Damaged by: excessive exertion, exposure and penetration of what is known as the 6 evils or 6 pathogenic factors

 

Note: There seems to be a habit among both laymen and practitioners alike to have bias and exalt the concept of qi as simply a positive force. In actuality, qi at its basis is simply energy, and energy improperly stored, moved or tainted becomes disease, perversion and illness. So to recognize and respect qi in its many manifestations while learning to properly discern their states of being and movement can help better refine one’s cultivitatve practices and movements beyond generic theory, prescription and practice.

 

 

 

Shen Spirit 神

 

Definition: used as a stand alone term, it generally refers categorically to the spirit in its quality of consciousness as associated with the Little Shen that is found in the heart. However, shen is a much larger concept than this (see below in “Note” section).

Location: generally associated with the heart organ

 

Commonly Referenced Types: 

Yuan Shen- simplistically this refers to the soul (not necessarily the Western concept of ‘soul’). also known as ‘original spirit’ 

Little Shen- the smaller spirits that resides in the yin organs

 

Cultivation Methods: purity of mind and heart, having a silent mind, embodying loving-kindness

Damaged by: excessive or imbalanced emotions, turbid mindsets

 

Note: The term shen, like the term qi, has a variety of references which are not clear unless you understand the context in which it is being used. For instance, shen is also used to refer to dieties, gods or the divine. As it relates to the body in Taoist medicine, it is spoken of as one Great Shen (the yuan shen) with its smaller manifestations through the five hollow or yin organs, known collectively as the Five Little Shen: they are the spirits of the five yin orangs- liver (hun), heart (also referred to as shen), spleen (yi), lung (po), kidney (zhi). It is the cultivation of shen that allows for enlightenment.

 

I hope that is helpful!

[Miroku]

20 hours ago, Small Fur said:

Jing  精

Definition: categorically an essence of the primoridal force in potential that forms the material basis for human life

Location: stored in the kidneys

 

Commonly Referenced Types: 

Pre-natal- the creative potential inherent before birth. (also referred to as congenital or reproductive jing)

Post-natal- the continued creative potential acquired after birth (also referred to as acquired jing or jing of the organs)

 

Cultivation Methods: conservation, internal and external alchemical practices

Damaged: materially through seminal loss and menstruation, excessive use of will, usage of stimulants such as coffee

 

Thanks a lot for this great overview!!! May I ask what is the source? Also why is pornography damaging for jing and shen?

[dawei]

Realize the long term view is that there is really no difference between Jing, Qi, Sheng, except as phase changes (think five elements) or think four seasons.   For the latter, overall, it is singular as what we call, weather. 

 

You were a child, then a teenager, then an adult, then a elderly adult...   just different words to describe the same unfolding physical body.

 

If you were to engage in weight training or something like Tai Ji or Qigong... you will use labels like beginner to intermediate to advanced.   These are just words to describe the journey.

 

When you hold the left side of a rope and then pull it until you hold the right side of the rope... you don't change your characterization of this as a rope.  you just change the words in terms of the direction... ergo... words describe direction or time phases.

 

Realize, we use words to fit our understanding and our parameters of definitions to describe things... it is not actually the true meaning of the thing at times.  

 

 

Now, in terms of protein... just think anything you consume... which may include protein, carbs and fats.. the body only absorbs so much.. and will get rid of what it can't absorb.    So, consider what is most worked by protein... spleen and liver.   your articles doesn't mention protein and kidney. 

 

See here for TCM thoughts on protein diets:  http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=32817

 

I might ask, why pursue a protein diet... that needs explanation for comment.  What is your blood type and body type?

 

[Rara]

On 14/01/2018 at 5:22 PM, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

We say that "Qi is movement arising from the relative potentials of YinYang at any given point on any spectrum of matter or energy".

 

No polarity = no "Qi".

 

Most people today assume Qi is some kind of substance. Perhaps a universal substance that pervades everything, or even a specific substance that changes into other substances.

 

"Scientists" have been looking for this "substance" called "Qi" and cannot find it.

 

Instead, they find various ordinary things they can measure, like heat, metabolic activity, bio-electricity, and so on.

 

Also, "scientists" have been looking all over human body for "acupuncture channels" or "meridians" that qi is supposed (they interpret) to flow through - something like water running in a water pipe.

 

They will not find that.

 

Because Qi is just a function of polarity. Not a substance, not a part of the body, not solid, liquid, or gas.

 

Human body has many polarities - up/down, inside/outside, orthosympathetic/parasympathetic, various electrical polarities, chemical polarities, etc.

 

Many substances and parts of body are involved in these polarities - not just one.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

So do you feel that "Qi" is somewhat undefinable?

[Rara]

17 hours ago, dawei said:

 your articles doesn't mention protein and kidney. 

 

See here for TCM thoughts on protein diets:  http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=32817

 

I might ask, why pursue a protein diet... that needs explanation for comment.  What is your blood type and body type?

 

 

Hi @dawei Sorry, I didn't link my point very well. Yes, the article doesn't mention protein and kidney - what I meant was that western theory (evidence points to etc etc) is that too much protein intake damages the kidneys. I guess my question is, does too much protein deplete jing? If that makes sense?

 

I don't have an overly high protein diet, but I used to when doing more heavy lifting etc a few years ago. That said, despite cutting it all down, the intake is still fair, I guess from habit.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Rara

[vonkrankenhaus]

2 hours ago, Rara said:

So do you feel that "Qi" is somewhat undefinable?

 

Not so much that I didn't write a new "definition" of it:

"Qi is movement arising from the relative potentials of YinYang at any given point on any spectrum of matter or energy"

 

Movement between poles of any complimentary/antagonistic polarity - could be movement of heat, "gravity", water, any kind of electromagnetic energy, social phenomena, seasons, evolution, and so on.

 

This is why so many sources list so many "kinds of qi".

 

In the human body there are many polarities and many movements are happening.

 

This is one reason ancient systems used more "acupuncture channels" than modern - they understood and knew how to have effect across more polarities than we use today.

 

Meanwhile, scientists are looking for qi as some kind of universal fluid or something running through what they decided must be like plumbing pipes in the body.

 

All qigong and gongfu systems are developed by discerning and exploiting (in various ways) bodily and energetic polarities.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Rara]

On 17/01/2018 at 0:01 AM, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

Movement between poles of any complimentary/antagonistic polarity - could be movement of heat, "gravity", water, any kind of electromagnetic energy, social phenomena, seasons, evolution, and so on.

 

Stream of consciousness, being one too? Thoughts coming and going, constantly in motion etc...

[DaoKeeper]

On 12.01.2018 at 1:22 AM, Miroku said:

Could you please clarify what depletion of shen means? For me it is very strange to imagine mind being depleted.What are the signs of depleting?

My understanding is that there are two types of shen depletion:
1) day-to-day depletion
2) depletion due to aging
 

First type is being depleted through lack of sleep, too exessive mind job (like @Rara mentioned) and other activities leading to loosing of awareness.
 

Second type is not a secret for everyone  - just compare teenagers and old people. 
When you are young you are full of creativity and power, however when you are old sometimes it becomes complicated to use your mobile phone to make a call. 
 

The simplest sign of shen depletion is when someone has no much creative energy and can't be creative.
 

I totally agree that jing, qi and shen are much more deep and insightful terms and I always like "whoa!" about the greatest knowledge Chinese culture is keeping
 

P.S. Of course we should always remember that shen is based on body and health (qi and jing)
P.P.S. Regarding different types of depletion I like Dao De Jing 12:

 

Quote

The fives colours confuse the eye,
The fives sounds dull the ear,
The five tastes spoil the palate.
Excess of hunting and chasing
Makes minds go mad.
Products that are hard to get
Impede their owner's movements.
Therefore the Sage
Considers the belly not the eye.
Truly, “he rejects that but takes this”.

Cheers

Edited January 21, 2018 by DaoKeeper

[Rara]

@DaoKeeper Yes. In fact, I think I need to get the guitar out and get creative now that you said this!