The Self is not "cultivated"...

[3bob]

The Self  Atman   (edit changing to the term "Self"  which I mean to use in the rest of this thread) is not cultivated by any methods or through evolution, if it could be it would not be the Self.

 

The eternal is already and always eternal.  The Self can not be held by the reasoning mind. (or even by a mind of wisdom which points to it)  

 

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by 3bob

[dwai]

2 hours ago, 3bob said:

Atman is not cultivated by any methods or through evolution, if it could be it would not be Atman.

 

The eternal is already and always eternal.  Atman can not be held by the reasoning mind. (or even by a mind of wisdom)  

 

 

🙏🏾🙇🏻

[Bindi]

 

2 hours ago, 3bob said:

Atman is not cultivated by any methods or through evolution, if it could be it would not be Atman.

 

The eternal is already and always eternal.  Atman can not be held by the reasoning mind. (or even by a mind of wisdom)  

 

 

 

To me, Atman is not cultivated until the self falls away, at which time it can be cultivated. I'm guessing you might not agree with this though. 

[C T]

I always considered devotion and sacrifice to be fundamental approaches that moves a devotee closer to the discovery of his own divine essence (atman). The act of engaging these two paths sounds to me not different than forms of cultivation. 

[3bob]

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

 

To me, Atman is not cultivated until the self falls away, at which time it can be cultivated. I'm guessing you might not agree with this though. 

 

well...form and very subtle form may be cultivated for instance as a radiant light being of compassion and power sitting upon a beautiful lotus, but Atman* is still not that.

 

(a.k.a. "The Self" per the Upanishads)

Edited December 25, 2017 by 3bob

[3bob]

1 hour ago, C T said:

I always considered devotion and sacrifice to be fundamental approaches that moves a devotee closer to the discovery of his own divine essence (atman). The act of engaging these two paths sounds to me not different than forms of cultivation. 

 

Preparation, help & Dharma is agreed upon,  but it is Atman that discovers Atman, so to speak, which might sound odd...  Thus it is not an individual Tom, Dick or Harry or Jane, Sally or Sue that circumscribes or plumbs the depth of Atman by their individual human power to discover.    

Edited December 25, 2017 by 3bob

[Bindi]

52 minutes ago, 3bob said:

 

well...form and very subtle form may be cultivated for instance as a radiant light being of compassion and power sitting upon a beautiful lotus, but Atman is still not that.

 

I'm not a Visishtadvaitin, but I probably align more with their understanding of Atman where Atman is not equal, or the same as Brahman, it is a mode or aspect of Brahman, though still wholly dependent upon Brahman. 

 

Quote

Vishishtadvaita Philosophy: Visistadvaita, or Qualified Non-dualism, according to Ramanuja, accepts the ultimate Reality to be Brahman; but the individual souls and the universe (Matter) are also real, being parts of Brahman or modes of His manifestation. Brahman, with the universe and the individual souls, constitutes the whole of Reality. The metaphor of the pomegranate fruit is chosen to illustrate the philosophy of this school. The seeds are the living souls and the rind is the universe and one cannot think of the fruit without the seeds and the rind. A Visishtadvaitin wants to become like Lord Narayana and enjoy the divine bliss. He does not wish to merge himself or become identical with the Lord. He wishes to remain as a spark or a ray of HIS Consciousness. Bhakti and Prapatti (total surrender) are the means of achieving salvation.

 

[dwai]

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I'm not a Visishtadvaitin, but I probably align more with their understanding of Atman where Atman is not equal, or the same as Brahman, it is a mode or aspect of Brahman, though still wholly dependent upon Brahman. 

 

 

Where’s the nonduality there?

 

[3bob]

On 12/24/2017 at 11:43 PM, Bindi said:

 

I'm not a Visishtadvaitin, but I probably align more with their understanding of Atman where Atman is not equal, or the same as Brahman, it is a mode or aspect of Brahman, though still wholly dependent upon Brahman. 

 

 

 

Being that the term "Self" or "Brahman" is often used in the Upanishads your post is a good one to remind me that my use of the term Atman is or could be problematic or incorrect to other schools or people if also used to point to Brahman. (thus I edited the thread title and words in a few places)

Thanks Bindi

 

p.s. and btw, There are some variations to "panentheism", which I lean towards. Below is a snippet of definition from Wikipedia: 

• In panentheism, God is viewed as the soul of the universe, the universal spirit present everywhere, which at the same time "transcends" all things created.
• While pantheism asserts that "all is God", panentheism claims that God is greater than the universe. Some versions of panentheism suggest that the universe is nothing more than the manifestation of God. In addition, some forms indicate that the universe is contained within God,^[3] like in the Kabbalah concept of tzimtzum. Also much Hindu thought – and consequently Buddhist philosophy – is highly characterized by panentheism and pantheism.^[4][5] The basic tradition however, on which Krause's concept was built, seems to have been Neoplatonic philosophy and its successors in Western philosophyand Orthodox theology.

Edited December 26, 2017 by 3bob

[Boy]

On 12/25/2017 at 6:24 AM, 3bob said:

[...] it is Atman that discovers Atman [...]    

 

I sincerely believe that it’s more helpful to say that it is actually “Tom, Dick or Harry or Jane, Sally or Sue. It is a lie, but is a blindingly white one. Don’t make them look for another ghost when they’ve come so far..

[3bob]

as things normally go anyone is free to take it, leave it, put it on the shelf, add or subtract to it (in their own meaning for themselves) etc..

 

...besides Guru and types of Dharma are not nihilistic if nihilism is what you are warning about?

Edited December 29, 2017 by 3bob

[Boundlesscostfairy]

Hmm, I believe that any thought or observation of self is cultivation.. and hence any egoic identification IS indeed Atman.. the highest realization possible is through atman.. for if you didnt exist.. you would have no sensation of anything and no sensation of others.. Thus egoic ideation is a validation of the Atman concept!