Modern Taijiquan Sucks!

[rideforever]

20 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

The following is an example of a brilliant instructor:

 

Is it ?

Silberstorff tells a story that he was in a fight and it was over in maybe 2 seconds, 1man vs 3.   There is no such thing as "I am going to do this" or whatever thinking.  Too late.  Either your Dantien is already awake and intelligently moving you automatically in milliseconds, or it's not.   Thinking with the head is out of the question.

Even these "instructions" from Clear (yes I like him) are far far far far far too much.

You have to stop taking instructions from a man.

And enter the practice so that you listen to energy, that's it.   There's not help or someone talking to you whilst you do this.
It's like meditaiton, there is no meditation if someone is talking to you at the same time.

 

Monetizing Tai Chi and Qigong has been a total fing disaster.  

I noticed two very highly respected qigong teachers in the last couple of years stretch out a single form or practice into multiple DVDs or video what nots so that it ends up being several hundred or thousands $$$$.
And I happen to know other people who learnt the same form from the original oriental teacher, and teach it in 3 minutes, simply.
But it's all about making "income -streams" in the USA.
The USA is based upon the idea of setting up income streams out of your students, your shares and your what not.

 

You need more instruction when you have no intention to do any practice.

 

I am sure sick to death to see these pushing hands demonstrations that bear no relationship to fighting and are usually conducted by fat people.

 

Also I notice several high profile Taiji teachers who love to talk about fighting ... sometimes talk of the broken bones and fights they have got into and as they get older don't look so good.

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by rideforever

[Michael Sternbach]

Yes, a fight can be over in two seconds, but to accomplish this (more or less) reliably, you first have to spend countless hours training your martial art. ☝

Edited February 13, 2019 by Michael Sternbach

[dwai]

 

Quote

What this boils down to is that what matters more than what kind of style (old or new) you are studying is the quality of the instruction you are receiving.

Well said! And covering more stuff is not necessarily good instruction. Important thing to check in IMA (imho) is if there is an energetic transmission from teacher to student. Energetics need to be implanted imprinted, via resonance. Otherwise we're just learning techniques. Techniques don't have power, they only allow the power to express itself. 

Quote

 

The following is an example of a brilliant instructor:

 

I like Richard Clear's videos too. He comes across as matter-of-fact, humble and confident and shows some good skills. 

Edited February 13, 2019 by dwai

[windwalker]

 

16 minutes ago, dwai said:

Well said! And covering more stuff is not necessarily good instruction. Important thing to check in IMA (imho) is if there is an energetic transmission from teacher to student. Energetics need to be implanted imprinted, via resonance. Otherwise we're just learning techniques. Techniques don't have power, they only allow the power to express itself. 

 

 

thought some might find this clip interesting "english subtitles"

out lines why, what and how for many questions  often asked when looking at high level taiji demos.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by windwalker

[rideforever]

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Yes, a fight can be over in two seconds, but to accomplish this (more or less) reliably, you first have to spend countless hours training your martial art. ☝

 

Yes indeed and shortly after Silberstorff defeated the 3 guys, 3 more guys came out the bar and beat the living shit out of him.

Violent people have ways of ensuring they win, you can forget the idea you are going to be met by an old man in a mac who wants to dance Tango with you.   That's not how it's going to be.

So, I suggest if you want to fight you do something different.

And if you do Taiji you set different goals for yourself then winning fights.

[Michael Sternbach]

<Yawn>

 

You wouldn't believe how many times I have heard something like that before. Well, I think I am going to pass the ball to Taiji and Bagua master Montaigue this time... (Sorry Erle, I remember how you hated being called 'master'.)

 

 

[rideforever]

18 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Montaigue

 

55secs "Take that person out with one or two weak spots in his body" ... scratches nose (knows it's bullshit)

5mins onwards, number of fat man kicks .... he's totally off balance and looks to be in poor shape.

Then all the DVDs etc... well everyone has bills to pay

 

It's all good, except I value my life.   

 

The whole problem is the idea of learning to fight which is more of an old man's fantasy about lost youth.   

Then using Taiji as an excuse to be fat and out of shape rather than actually training for combat.

Then not having any higher goals for yourself.

Life is seen as a place to gather tricks.

 

[Shubin]

windwalker's video is excellent.

At 1:43, 2:43, the Master talked about Yi, Qi, Jin. 

If one has Qi, he can learn to use Yi and Jin. After learn a few forms, he can fight with Taijiquan. 

 

If one practiced a lot of forms, pushing hands, ... etc, but he has zero Qi, his Taijiquan is a joke.

 

[Fa Xin]

5 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

<Yawn>

 

You wouldn't believe how many times I have heard something like that before. Well, I think I am going to pass the ball to Taiji and Bagua master Montaigue this time... (Sorry Erle, I remember how you hated being called 'master'.)

 

 

Earle Montaigue will forever be known in my mind for his Dim Makking of students to unconsciousness.  I remember watching that video when I was about 15... it was awesome.

[windwalker]

46 minutes ago, Shubin said:

windwalker's video is excellent.

At 1:43, 2:43, the Master talked about Yi, Qi, Jin. 

If one has Qi, he can learn to use Yi and Jin. After learn a few forms, he can fight with Taijiquan. 

 

If one practiced a lot of forms, pushing hands, ... etc, but he has zero Qi, his Taijiquan is a joke.

 

 

Also enjoyed the clip, for non native speakers it highlighted the science used behind what is seen and often joked about or for some trying to discredit what they don't understand or cant do.

 

In Taiwan for some of my students having phd level understanding of physics. it was very interesting as I would demo and explain using physics .  He would quote the taiji classics that corresponded with it.  

 

In our case in the line I was trained in the concepts used were based on yi, qi, shen   which as some may know is a little different.  

 

 My point being that a lot of what is shown can be explained using physics.

Edited February 14, 2019 by windwalker

[flowing hands]

Tai Ji Is a Dao fighting art. In the modern world it is not taught as a fighting art. Its core practices were like any other martial art; developing the strength of the body and the core, developing hands, forearms and feet that could deliver potent and lethal blows without too much damage being done to the hands etc. (iron fist). Speed and agility along with technique and eventually internal power were the basis of the art and the form was practiced fast and with emphasis on certain techniques. There is too much bullshit talked about so called internal arts. All arts are both internal and external, they have to be to be balanced as fighting arts and as health benefits.

[rideforever]

There is much bullshit in this world, and there is also much desperate bullshit.

Better to train well in something simple but real than badly in bullshit.

The best teachers are not teachers, but students who work hard at their own studies.

There are 24 hours in a day, instead of looking for shortcuts, look for longcuts.

And if this is not what you actually want to do, no problem, stop.

Ask yourself what you actually want to do, and then do that instead.

[freeform]

13 minutes ago, rideforever said:

students who work hard at their own studies.

 

If teachers don’t do this themselves, then they shouldn’t be teaching.

[dwai]

11 hours ago, windwalker said:

 

Also enjoyed the clip, for non native speakers it highlighted the science used behind what is seen and often joked about or for some trying to discredit what they don't understand or cant do.

 

In Taiwan for some of my students having phd level understanding of physics. it was very interesting as I would demo and explain using physics .  He would quote the taiji classics that corresponded with it.  

 

In our case in the line I was trained in the concepts used were based on yi, qi, shen   which as some may know is a little different.  

 

11 hours ago, windwalker said:

 My point being that a lot of what is shown can be explained using physics.

And a lot cannot

How do you explain "shen"? Or for that matter, even the role of "Yi", even if you somehow convince a scientist that "Qi" is a real thing? Or for that matter, how do you convince a scientist that an energy field exists (around the human body), and  that, it can be tapped into for applications ranging from healing to martial?

 

Personally I gave up on "scientific" explanations a long time ago. I just accept the phenomena and associated terminology as they are. Qi is Qi, Shen is Shen, Jin is Jin, Yi is Yi. It IS magical. It IS mystical and once we go beyond what I call the "internal-external" method of moving stuff inside the body, the real taiji comes into play (imho). 

[Shubin]

12 hours ago, windwalker said:

 

Also enjoyed the clip, for non native speakers it highlighted the science used behind what is seen and often joked about or for some trying to discredit what they don't understand or cant do.

 

In Taiwan for some of my students having phd level understanding of physics. it was very interesting as I would demo and explain using physics .  He would quote the taiji classics that corresponded with it.  

 

In our case in the line I was trained in the concepts used were based on yi, qi, shen   which as some may know is a little different.  

 

 My point being that a lot of what is shown can be explained using physics.

Physics works at the level of bone, muscle and body weight.

 

Here is another clip,  Akebono vs. 王战军

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpdzhYjx_zw  

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Shubin

[windwalker]

3 minutes ago, Shubin said:

Physics works at the level of bone, muscle and body weight.

 

Here is another clip,  Kotoshogiku vs. 王战军

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpdzhYjx_zw  

 

 

Not going to argue about it.

There are many different ways to explain something according to ones level of understanding.

 

the key is whether one can do it or not all that is shown in the clips I can do and have felt done to me.

 

 

[windwalker]

41 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

And a lot cannot

How do you explain "shen"? Or for that matter, even the role of "Yi", even if you somehow convince a scientist that "Qi" is a real thing? Or for that matter, how do you convince a scientist that an energy field exists (around the human body), and  that, it can be tapped into for applications ranging from healing to martial?

 

Personally I gave up on "scientific" explanations a long time ago. I just accept the phenomena and associated terminology as they are. Qi is Qi, Shen is Shen, Jin is Jin, Yi is Yi. It IS magical. It IS mystical and once we go beyond what I call the "internal-external" method of moving stuff inside the body, the real taiji comes into play (imho). 

 

Explanations accord's with one's level of understanding.  All that you've mentioned can be explained using physics.

 

Using physics doesn't make it any easier it only helps in using clearly defined concepts or theories to show and help one understand what's happening.

 

Even  for native Chinese the classical terminology it's often hard to understand and requires an interpretation or depending on the teachers level demonstrations that they still may not understand. Or as is often the case many teachers can do it but cannot explain it, their answers practice, practice and more practice.

 

Using physics helps,  just as using traditional terminology and concepts.  All of which are words unless one can do, or has felt.

 

On other sites, it's often funny, if not strange。

 

Once something is shown that they agree on when written most will tend to argue about it as being faked, compliant, staged ect .

If a clip is presented showing what they just agreed on.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by windwalker

[dwai]

23 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

Explanations accord's with one's level of understanding.  All that you've mentioned can be explained using physics.

Please show me, if its not too much to ask for. Or at least map these concepts 1:1 with concepts in physics. Remember, that Quantum physics is not acceptable in explaining phenomena that occur the in classical mechanics domain. At least, the scientific community today doesn't accept it afaik. 

23 minutes ago, windwalker said:

Using physics doesn't make it any easier it only helps in using clearly defined concepts or theories to show and help one understand what's happening.

 

Even  for native Chinese the classical terminology it's often hard to understand and requires an interpretation or depending on the teachers level demonstrations that they still may not understand. Or as is often the case many teachers can do it but cannot explain it, their answers practice, practice and more practice.

I agree completely. Real understanding comes after direct experience (and then some period of maturation). And it is an unfolding the continues progressively too. So no single "definition" really works, as its nature changes as we go deeper. 

23 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

Using physics helps,  just as using traditional terminology and concepts.  All of which are words unless one can do, or has felt.

 

On other sites, it's often funny, if not strange。

I've heard people say "It is only physics" and then in the same breath say "You put your intention in the other person's feet/root". In physics there is no role for the intention of the objects being studied  

23 minutes ago, windwalker said:

Once something is shown that they agree on when written most will tend to argue about it as being faked, compliant, staged ect .

If a clip is presented showing what they just agreed on.

 

Sad but true...

[windwalker]

55 minutes ago, dwai said:

In physics there is no role for the intention of the objects being studied

 

ya might want to check out 

 

 

"The mass moment of inertia of a body around an axis can be determined from the mass moment of inertia around a parallel axis through the centre of mass."

 

Intent or what some might call feeling awareness  is one way of understanding and knowing  how to use whats called a parallel axis.

restoring force another idea that we use in practice

 

https://journeytoemptiness.com/2017/07/11/restoring-force/

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Flower fist and brocade legs is a old term for a person that does Tai Chi and does not have kung fu.

 

For those interested in self defense one must practice Nei Jia Quan, Tai Yi, Laing Yi or Shaolin first. All Martial student are trained in Kung Fu first then graduate to Tai Chi Chuan. It is backwards in America and nothing Like Tai Chi Chuan taught in China. This is my own personal experience. Even push hands in america is very watered down and non effective as a fighting skill. Using to much force in american push hands is a cause to get disqualified. Lots of fighting is required to become good at it. Get your bruises in the training hall.

 

Once someone is skilled at fighting the techniques used in Tai Chi Chuan is rightfully deserving of its name Supreme Ultimate Fist or Boxing.

[dwai]

1 hour ago, windwalker said:

 

ya might want to check out 

 

 

"The mass moment of inertia of a body around an axis can be determined from the mass moment of inertia around a parallel axis through the centre of mass."

 

Intent or what some might call feeling awareness  is one way of understanding and knowing  how to use whats called a parallel axis.

restoring force another idea that we use in practice

 

https://journeytoemptiness.com/2017/07/11/restoring-force/

 

This doesn't explain much of what one can experience with a high level taiji person imho. It is a good theory up to intermediate level where leverage, and biomechanics, etc are still in play. 

[windwalker]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

This doesn't explain much of what one can experience with a high level taiji person imho. It is a good theory up to intermediate level where leverage, and biomechanics, etc are still in play. 

 

As I noted according your experience. 

Not going to argue about it on line

no point. 

 

 Its not about leverage, or any of the things you've mentioned.

In person it would be very clear   With a single point of contact 

all is known.  

 

another good teacher showing some of the things mentioned and using some of what

I've mentioned.

 

 

all top level masters talk about it, and demo it 

using different verbiage. 

[windwalker]

Another clip of a teacher I like what a style I don't really care for.

 

 

I find this teacher very interesting,  watched him for many years observing the changes as he evolves in his practice.

 

I've posted 3 clips all showing the same things expressed in different ways in some cases with different verbiage.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2019 by windwalker

[Shubin]

a clip about 太极凌空劲.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ziORzbXoN0

[windwalker]

23 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Once someone is skilled at fighting the techniques used in Tai Chi Chuan is rightfully deserving of its name Supreme Ultimate Fist or Boxing.

 

While I agree with the basic premise, I would not with the conclusion.

 

Taiji just as any CMA art can be taught with different focuses and intent depending on teacher and students needs.

 

The reason this is so rooted in the changes by different Master level teachers at different points in history in an attempt to keep their skill sets relevant to the changing modern world.

 

Taiji itself as you may know can be approached on the physical, spiritual , and energetic properties depending on teachers skill level and focus.

 

This means that teacher has to be totally honest with themselves and  understand their own focus and clarity of practice.

 

It also means that the student has to have some clarity in what they seek and look for.

 

What one seeks, one often finds, without clarity this is often not the case.   

 

Ending up in confusion with students questioning the teachers teachings not understanding that they are students.

 

In my own work, the focuses on functionality for fighting.  For those not directly seeking this I give them away of practice that accords with what they expect, seek.  

 

if it's too far out of my range I suggest that they seek other teachers that I know who are much more capable in teaching what they're looking for.

Edited February 15, 2019 by windwalker