poor bastards

[Procurator]

For what passes for "Taoism" in the books in B. Dalton has nothing to do with real

Taoism, if we define "real Taoism" as the traditions that have been practiced in China for over

twenty centuries. This problem is a complex one, and it is a problem that makes some

Americans uncomfortable, for the truth about this situation is that thousands of Westerners have

been literally deluded about Taoism,...

 

 

....No aspect of the fantasy Taoism created by immature, self-centered

Western minds has any basis in the facts of Taoism in China....

 

 

 

(Russell Kirkland, University of Georgia)

 

http://kirkland.myweb.uga.edu/rk/pdf/pubs/pres/TENN97.pdf

Edited January 20, 2008 by Procurator

[Pietro]

For what passes for "Taoism" in the books in B. Dalton has nothing to do with real

Taoism, if we define "real Taoism" as the traditions that have been practiced in China for over

twenty centuries. This problem is a complex one, and it is a problem that makes some

Americans uncomfortable, for the truth about this situation is that thousands of Westerners have

been literally deluded about Taoism,...

....No aspect of the fantasy Taoism created by immature, self-centered

Western minds has any basis in the facts of Taoism in China....

(Russell Kirkland, University of Georgia)

 

http://kirkland.myweb.uga.edu/rk/pdf/pubs/pres/TENN97.pdf

 

 

Thanks for posting this. It always makes a good read. I started reading it some years ago, when it came out, but I don't think that at the time I finished it. Now I did. There are a few things to be commented on this, that is, speaking on the content, and avoiding more than one line, to the unpleasantness of the form.

 

First of all the article is quite old. In an article that speak of things happened in the 70s as if speaking of historical events, 10 years are quite a long time. Probably the author, himself, would consider it quite dated, by now.

 

I don't know exactly why you posted it here, except as a sort of reproch to this whole community. And yet I have yet to see someone who suggested the Tao of pooh as a serious taoist text. Mostly, if it ever got mentioned, it was as a semi serious, humorous, side lecture.

 

The second thing to be told is that every religion, when it moves from one nation (or better from one culture) to another changes deeply. Buddhism changed when it moved from India to Tibet. Then when it went to China it changed again. Then to Japan it changed again. Each culture inevitably picks and leaves parts of the previous religion, and creates a new creature. Similarly Chan Buddhism went to Japan and became Zen. Here the change was so profound that they gave a new name. So of course when those huge tradition arrived inte west they are bound to change. And to be transformed. It is a long process that will take many generations. We are just witnes fromt he inside. And as always people who are involved in a process are the worse person to judge it.

 

Then there is the point of some of those evil writers, who succumb to the temptation to pick Taoist and eastern writing for their own aim. How evil of them. In particular Robert Bly is being singled out here. Well, I have read Bly for many years. But Bly is generally not trying to explain different cultures, but to explain, using other cultures, our culture. As such he is using those poetry, juat as an example. But it has little importance if this is the aim of the author. The aim is not to explain the poet, but to explain a different concept. And yet, at times he manages to say things about the author that are quite correct (even though, as we said, it is not his job). In Bly I read a translation of a sonnet from Dante. I found it interesting, and I went back to read "La Vita Nova". Now Dante is from my home country, in a sense it is in my bones and DNA, like Taoism is in the DNA of a Chinese. And yet, after reading La Vita Nova (which I didn't at school), I found Bly commentary to still be quite interesting. And in no way did I found his commentary to be a form of American colonialism. In fact I was rather happy that some of Italian culture made it into the american mind.

 

And finally there is his suggestion: if you are to become a taoist, then you need to learn chinese, and learn from a real taoist in china.

 

But you see, this is exactly what many of us has done. Some people, here, post from China. Other went to China to find their teacher. And other, like me, have their teacher gone to China, learn there, become a Taoist figure, and then came back.

 

I would agree that reading a bad translation of the ttj, and following a crap course in tai ji chuan, is NOT the way to go. But I do not agree that this is the way that most people are approaching their interest in taoism. It might have seemed in 1998. But while this might have been what was going on in the surface, there were many people who were traveling to China, and coming back from China. And now there is a number of authenthic Taoist schools, all around the place.

[Procurator]

Thanks for posting this. It always makes a good read. I started reading it some years ago, when it came out, but I don't think that at the time I finished it. Now I did. There are a few things to be commented on this, that is, speaking on the content, and avoiding more than one line, to the unpleasantness of the form.

 

First of all the article is quite old. In an article that speak of things happened in the 70s as if speaking of historical events, 10 years are quite a long time. Probably the author, himself, would consider it quite dated, by now.

You are welcome Pietro. If you think that this 10 y.o article is old probably you will dissmis these 500 y.o words as quite outdated. I guess you will dismiss the one who utter them too.

 

人人惑于妖妄邪淫

个个不知仙道正门

 

yet both these words and the article cant be more relevant: just go to the "favorite quotes" section and take a look. you chosed to ignore the relevancy - well that is your prerogative.

[Pietro]

You are welcome Pietro. If you think that this 10 y.o article is old probably you will dissmis these 500 y.o words as quite outdated. I guess you will dismiss the one who utter them too.

 

人人惑于妖妄邪淫

个个不知仙道正门

 

yet both these words and the article cant be more relevant: just go to the "favorite quotes" section and take a look. you chosed to ignore the relevancy - well that is your prerogative.

 

No, if you think your words are relevant, please explain how.

 

I do not speak Chinese, nor did I said that I do.

What I did say is that my teacher spoke Chinese, which he does fluently.

Being a Taoist priest and a taoist master, lineage holder.

As such I feel I am learning Taoism from a reliable source.

And from there I could answer you.

 

I went to the favorite quotes, looking for maybe a translation to those characters, but I could not find it. You just posted them again. Is that what you wanted me to see, or was a general remark on the quality of the quotes that people find memorable?

Edited January 21, 2008 by Pietro

[Procurator]

or was a general remark on the quality of the quotes that people find memorable?

a general remark.

 

I went to the favorite quotes, looking for maybe a translation to those characters, but I could not find it. You just posted them again.

yeah no translation. it makes salient the point that folks calling themselves "taoist" are not even familiar with the language of their purported avocation.

 

 

my teacher spoke Chinese, which he does fluently.

Being a Taoist priest and a taoist master, lineage holder.

As such I feel I am learning Taoism from a reliable source.

And from there I could answer you.

 

that is great congratulations. what have you learnd exactly so far from him?

[Pietro]

a general remark.

 

Yes, I am often quite taken aback by some of the quotes, too.

And if you dig in that thread you will find my quote from long time before, which you might even agree on.

 

yeah no translation. it makes salient the point that folks calling themselves "taoist" are not even familiar with the language of their purported avocation.

 

Yes. It is unfortunate. But do all the people who became Christian in history knew Greek? After all some people might have a serious interest for Taoism, but a serious difficulty in studying languages. Which is a totally different set of skills.

 

that is great congratulations. what have you learnd exactly so far from him?

 

Many things, thanks for asking.

 

Some of the things we learned were techniques. And those are somehow the easier to list, if you ask me.

 

But then each technique was given with explanations about how it can go wrong, what to do if it goes wrong. As well as how to apply it, and when to apply it, and why.

 

So, for example, you might be given a technique on how to dissolve blockages in your body or mind. Then it would be explained to you when you should do it. In what cases is better not to do it. Then what other techniques should be done before. And what other techniques can be done at the same time. In which case this opens up the door to how those techniques work together. Ecc.

 

And all this respect to the how. But then you have the why. And here is where the taoist philosophy is more important.

How Taoist aim to see reality, directly. So, for example, the idea that there is no good or bad, becomes real, when you are told to dissolve not just blockages coming from bad things that happened to you, but also blockages coming from good things. Both your demons and your angels. And only then you will be able to see reality.

 

Similarly we have been presented with Taoist morality, as a way to distinguish what can be done, and what "is not a good idea" to do. This not as a list, but as a way to discover your own list, by yourself. With the explanation that eventually most people will end up with a similar "list". But never with the same.

 

And so on.

 

Teachings about taoism, are followed by teaching from taoism, who are followed by techniques from one of the branch of taoism, their how and their why. All of them are mixed together in a direct, very intense experience. And under all this there is the teachings without words. Both coming from the fact of being with a person who is embodying many of those principles, and and from the direct transmission of some of those teachings.

 

 

And what about you? You obviously know Chinese. Can you tell us more about your study of Taoism? Are you in China right now? Have you been in China? Can you tell us something of the Taoism you are studying?

[Jakara]

This is an absolutely amazing essay and I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. The points made 10 years ago are still applicable today, even more so given the huge propagation of fluff across the modern internet that we all have access to.

 

Thanks very much for posting this, its a real insight and reminder into what real taoism is, or in this case as the author describes, what it isn't.

[Wayfarer64]

It just struck me that all those poor bastard Christians have been fervently duped due to their lack of Aramaic or ancient Hebrew as a second language... I guess only Mormans can be understood by us poor bastard citizens of the USA since at least Smith spoke American English-(and they are still misunderstood as a lot anyway!)

 

The "getting It" has little to do with the actual words, it is the meaning wrought that matters-

Most Americans can not read Shakespear without a guide book at hand.

 

Things change language changes, I can barely understand the language of American youth now ! - But i get the meaning most of the time...How would something like:

I be chillin' wit my homies -BECAUSE THE GIANTS ARE GOING TO THE SUPERBOWL !!!

 

Get translated to a proper English gentlewoman?

 

How would that be translated into ancient Chinese to make sense of it to a Taoist monk 2000 years ago?

 

Societies are too different to have such things made meaningful without a deeper non- linguistic knowledge of Both Cultures...Words do not offer meaning nor content of themselves... that has to be

FELT inside not intellectualized through precise wording that no longer finds relivence in many lives...

[Taoist81]

yeah no translation. it makes salient the point that folks calling themselves "taoist" are not even familiar with the language of their purported avocation.

 

Perhaps all those Chinese Buddhists and any Christian who doesn't speak Aramaic should be cast out as unauthentic as well. Anyone who honestly studies the history of Taoism has to note the flaws in most of the "fluff" pieces (ex. the Tao of Pooh). At the same time one must accept that like all religions/philosophies Taoism is a "living thing" so to speak. They all change and grow and adapt (as noted above) to new people and new environments. Intellectual honesty is an honorable thing, it should be noted that what is commonly called "religious Taoism" is a major part (at the very least) of the history of Taoism. At the same time exluding certain branches, even recently developed ones like the group that calls itself "Western Reform Taoism" leads inevitably to silliness. Should the Tianshi Taoists be considered Taoists over the Lingbao? Lingbao over Zhengyi? Should Catholics be able to say that Protestants are not Christian? What about Protestants saying that Mormons aren't Christians? As Pietro noted above the Zen Buddhists have a different way from Tibetan Buddhists. Perhaps they should not be using that name, Buddhism. While we are on the subject of Buddhism, perhaps we should really get back to the "One True Taoism" and eradicate all the elements that early Taoist priests took from the Buddhists....

 

No major movement or religion has ever avoided adaptation, with the possible exception of Hinduism which simply embraces it. It is Human Nature, not just evil capitalist Westerners. Every religion/philosophy that exists today has elements pulled from others. What really matters is what happens within a person when they strive towards whatever focus they have. It seems that we would all be better off if we could just drop all of the labels and just seek the Way however we find it. "There are already enough names, one must know when to stop."

Edited January 21, 2008 by Taoist81

[gendao]

Actually, if you guys read "Power Vs. Force," David Hawkins measures the "level of truth" in various religions from when they originally started...and now, after centuries of degeneration.

 

I don't think he included Taoism, but it was interesting to see how other major religions stacked up...and how some had deteriorated far more than others over time (like Christianity & Islam, for example).

 

So I think ideally, your best source now is really to just psychically directly contact these founders' spirits or even higher sources...

Edited January 21, 2008 by vortex

[Pietro]

Actually, if you guys read "Power Vs. Force," David Hawkins measures the "level of truth" in various religions from when they originally started...and now, after centuries of degeneration.

 

I don't think he included Taoism, but it was interesting to see how other major religions stacked up...and how some had deteriorated far more than others over time (like Christianity & Islam, for example).

If it doesn't include taoism, it can't be a good book

[Procurator]

 

And what about you? You obviously know Chinese. Can you tell us more about your study of Taoism?

 

*sure. the important thing is the study of the language. i work on this for the last two years, there is another year to go before i can read ancient texts without a dictionary.

 

Are you in China right now?

*No.

 

Have you been in China?

*No, i had many chances to go but i really need to go only to meet the head of our school. ..who doesnt want to see me until I finish the preliminary training. You see, he does not care if i pay him. No fullfilled requirement - no chance to pay.

 

Can you tell us something of the Taoism you are studying?

*Sure. It is a secret teaching. It has very exact goals and very exact, objective milestones. Out of say 10 total stages i managed to climb to stage 4 may be, then i crashed and burned. Now i climb up again.

 

There was this talk of retention on the forum, ppl were talking of going for 20 or 100 days without loss. Made me chuckle, i stayed 11 month without loss last time.

 

Should the Tianshi Taoists be considered Taoists over the Lingbao? Lingbao over Zhengyi?

 

No major movement or religion has ever avoided adaptation,

your glaring mistake here is that you think that taoism is a "movement or religion". It is not.

[Wayfarer64]

I don't think that Kirklands' essay has much to do with many here on this forum, it is aimed at his fellow academics and is a self-justifying message...

 

Many here are willing to and indeed do, give up our "American/Western life styles" in an atempt to follow Taoist precepts...

 

Humility is laking in Kirklands assumptions and I doubt that he is much of a Taoist himself, maybe that is part of his apparent frustration and wish to take umbrage at those who may differ in their approach to Taoist demands...

 

Getting it and acting upon it is not predicated on taking the same meaning from texts that ancient sages once did, that would negate the living aspect of change that Taoist thought demands of us...

[Taoist81]

your glaring mistake here is that you think that taoism is a "movement or religion". It is not.

We likely agree on this statement in at least a superficial way. However, you do see the pointlessness of posting a paper referring to the improper practice of Taoism as a religion as some type of evidence, then pointing out that it is not a "religion".

[Procurator]

We likely agree on this statement in at least a superficial way. However, you do see the pointlessness of posting a paper referring to the improper practice of Taoism as a religion as some type of evidence, then pointing out that it is not a "religion".

as you said above - on a superficial level, in a superficial way it is quite pointless. But if you wanna delve deeper - Kirkland was using the term "religion" to conway the meaning of "practice".

[doc benway]

Daoism, like the Dao, is more than words. The words are not the thing. Daoism is to each individual whatever they choose to take from it. Debating about whether it's a religion, a culture, a philosophy, or all of the above is fine if you're into that sort of thing. But so is studying whatever parts of it are meaningful and using that in daily life.

 

Just as Buddhism was, more or less, the salient core tenets of Hinduism (a culture) reformed for export (as a religion), so "pop" Daoism includes salient philisophical and spiritual core tenets of Daoism streamlined for mass consumption. If a Christian believes and applies the core teachings of Jesus yet discards the rest of the baggage, is that not Christianity? If a Daoist choses to make wu wei the prime focus of their life yet ignores the pantheon of gods and the magical aspects of cultivation, is he not a Daoist?

 

Must one burn incense to General Kwan to be a Daoist? Must one be Chinese? Must one read Chinese to be Daoist? Do all Buddhists read Pali? I challenge anyone to adequately define Daosim let alone try and tell the world what it should be considered or should not be considered.

 

Very interesting and well written paper, BTW.

[Buddy]

"vortex" wrote:

"Actually, if you guys read "Power Vs. Force," David Hawkins measures the "level of truth" in various religions from when they originally started...and now, after centuries of degeneration."

 

I read it. I thought it was rubbish.

 

http://www.energygrid.com/spirit/2007/09ap-davidhawkins.html

[三江源]

"vortex" wrote:

"Actually, if you guys read "Power Vs. Force," David Hawkins measures the "level of truth" in various religions from when they originally started...and now, after centuries of degeneration."

 

I read it. I thought it was rubbish.

 

http://www.energygrid.com/spirit/2007/09ap-davidhawkins.html

 

Please share your lucid analysis with us, Buddy, and stop with that coy inarticulacy, you jolly jester, you.

[rain]

procrat n buddy lucid dreamers?

wow!

[Procurator]

Daoism is to each individual whatever they choose to take from it.

(shrug) sure. and daosim has a metaphor for such indivuduals - "straw dogs".

[rain]

make haiku procrat. please.

[Procurator]

If a Christian believes and applies the core teachings of Jesus yet discards the rest of the baggage, is that not Christianity?

sure. and christ had a saying for ppl who pick and choose - ..many are called, but few are chosen.Matthew 22:14

[rain]

yes and you are meek procrat. meek????

Edited January 21, 2008 by rain

[Buddy]

"cat" writes:

"Please share your lucid analysis with us..."

 

It's pseudo science. Did you read the link?

[Procurator]

"cat" writes:

"Please share your lucid analysis with us..."

 

It's pseudo science. Did you read the link?

i concur. interestingly almost every science that deals with intangibles is a pseudo-science.