Group Re Translation of Taoist Yoga by C. Luk

[Procurator]

Mutilator,

don't mutilate my posts anymore or I'll install a Wheel of Shadows in your cochlea.

on account of you being old and ugly please stay away from my cock-lea.

Edited January 21, 2008 by Procurator

[Taomeow]

Wayfarer,

(purr )

I agree about Cleary -- although I haven't read his Buddhist texts but the fact he's a Buddhist comes through loud and clear in his taoist ones. Still, it is quite, quite possible to get under his idiosyncratic bias and "get it" -- and his is no worse than any other translator's. Wilhelm, whose translation of the I Ching is considered the best, substitutes "man" for "person" of the original pretty much everywhere -- talk about bias! Changes the whole dynamics of the whole thing! Even translators who translate their own work can't escape being biased. (Nabokov did this, and since I can read both versions, I know that they are, too, worlds apart!)

 

I used to make a living as a technical translator, many moons ago, and in order to produce a text that would make sense to specialists, I would ask professionals (engineers) for lectures in the field I was tackling. I absolutely needed to understand what it is that the original means by "pigging" (e.g.) -- just translating the word was not an option, I had to know about hydrates in natural gas and what they do in a pipeline and what can be done about it, and that's where "pigging" would come into the picture. With taoist texts, it is much the same -- they are technical (surprise surprise), specialized, non-generic... one needs to know the field to understand the term properly.

[Procurator]

Edited January 21, 2008 by Procurator

[Taomeow]

on account of you being old and unappealing please stay away from my cock-lea.

See -- the Wheel of Shadows is already working... ghosts and demons going around and around in your ear, whispering words, forcing you to repeat them -- words of contempt for other people which you think will establish your superiority, while in fact all they accomplish is make people stay away from you... and zombies, draw near, sensing one of their own.

 

I was kidding though about installing it -- no need for me to bother, it was successfully installed a long time ago and fully operational all your life.

[Procurator]

 

 

I was kidding though about installing it -- no need for me to bother, it was successfully installed a long time ago and fully operational all your life.

well i am pretty sure that if you could you would give me cancer. but you cant. go practice on your mama.

[Taomeow]

well i am pretty sure that if you could you would give me cancer. but you cant. go practice on your mama.

That's right, I can't, I wouldn't be able to give meaning to your life even in the form of cancer. Sorry.

[Wayfarer64]

Procurater/pronada-you seem very negative as a rule. Why are you always putting down never offering anything constructive..

This is very sad to see.

So I tender unto you an offeringas idea to be acted upon -

hopefully...

 

Let us each say a prayer for this poor soul. He has a deep need that may be addressed here... It would be a kindness to us as well, perhaps the monster that is generating these obnoxious posts can be tamed-

 

I am busy dealing with a laziness demon that has taken a good friend out of life's joys - so my plate is quite full...

[Procurator]

That's right, I can't, I....cancer. Sorry.

she is sorry she cant give me cancer.

she must be dead then.

Ding Dong! The Witch is dead. Which old Witch? The Wicked Witch!

Ding Dong! The Wicked Witch is dead.

Wake up - sleepy head, rub your eyes, get out of bed.

Wake up, the Wicked Witch is dead. She's gone where the goblins go,

Below - below - below. Yo-ho, let's open up and sing and ring the bells out.

Ding Dong' the merry-oh, sing it high, sing it low.

Let them know

The Wicked Witch is dead!

Edited January 22, 2008 by Procurator

[Wayfarer64]

Where is Witch these days?- Did she find her Taoist lover and leave us to fend for ourselves without her sexpertese? Dang, she goes and we get a passle of fools to contend with... What a rip-off...

 

Come back Witch -we miss ya!

 

TaoMeow, (oops! edit needed for recoup of senior moment)... yr wonderous to read here but yr only a witch in a fools' imagination, & such it is that fools miss the context of kind reactions to their own prattle!

 

Your wisdom has the depth that fools will never comprehend. That isn't so bad a thing... yr high above the idiocy batted about here and deeper than meager pedantic tomfoolery will ever reach...BUT-

 

I know you would rather elevate him than put him down -as is the nature of realized beings, but if ya can hex this negatory jack-ass- then please do...Not all (if any) ignorance is bliss...His has become gnat-like in its nature, smaller than a mesquitos'... but persistant enough to warrent a swat.

 

I shall put his posted BS into the ignore function henceforth... Sean so wisely offers this option to us & thus I for one will be done with it...

Edited January 22, 2008 by Wayfarer64

[Eric23]

she is sorry she cant give me cancer.

she must be dead then.

Ding Dong! The Witch is dead. Which old Witch? The Wicked Witch!

Ding Dong! The Wicked Witch is dead.

Wake up - sleepy head, rub your eyes, get out of bed.

Wake up, the Wicked Witch is dead. She's gone where the goblins go,

Below - below - below. Yo-ho, let's open up and sing and ring the bells out.

Ding Dong' the merry-oh, sing it high, sing it low.

Let them know

The Wicked Witch is dead!

 

Do you have any idea how much of an ass you are making of yourself?

[mwight]

Do you have any idea how much of an ass you are making of yourself?

 

wow I just sprayed jasmine tea out of my nose.. all over my new 19 inch lcd too ROFLAO

[Mal]

Stand in dragon stance, while focusing on the moon, and sun, and merge the dragon and the tiger in the lower cauldron and then plunge that into the original cavity of the spirit, convert lead into mercury, and nourish the sacred fetus.

 

WTF makes no sense to me.

 

Alchemy texts are full of jargon like that, usually on purpose as they are refering to very specific processes that take forever to describe specifically in any language. And it does help to obscure the meaning too, did anyone ever really want to physically make "gold" out of "lead"

 

Personally I use to keep a notebook and made my own glossary that I would cross reference texts against. Once I started to understand the jargon and "made it my own" I found it quicker and easier to just read the jargon. But that glossary was an essential project for me, very educational.

[mwight]

Alchemy texts are full of jargon like that, usually on purpose as they are refering to very specific processes that take forever to describe specifically in any language. And it does help to obscure the meaning too, did anyone ever really want to physically make "gold" out of "lead"

 

Personally I use to keep a notebook and made my own glossary that I would cross reference texts against. Once I started to understand the jargon and "made it my own" I found it quicker and easier to just read the jargon. But that glossary was an essential project for me, very educational.

 

well yes essentially this is what I am wanting to do. I don't know why it generated so much flameage...

 

What I want to do is

 

1. define jargon I don't understand, in simple language.

 

2. scan in the complete text via OCR

 

3. replace jargon with simple logical western descriptive explanations

 

 

How this idea turned into some huge flame war is beyond me.

[Mal]

How this idea turned into some huge flame war is beyond me.

 

Just part of the fun of written communication on the net I guess

[Taomeow]

Do you have any idea how much of an ass you are making of yourself?

Thanks for noticing, Eric, you've got a sharp eye... artist, right? I'm still giggling

[三江源]

Guys.... it isnt jargon.

 

it is reductive to think of it that way. it's an integral part of the culture of what you are learning. it's metaphor, which accrues depth and meaning on a soul and spirit level.

 

think white bread versus brown bread.

 

 

persevere with the less easy flavour, you'll be richer in the end.

Edited January 22, 2008 by cat

[Starjumper]

on account of you being old and ugly please stay away from my cock-lea.

 

Taomeow is HOT.

 

Sizzlin'.

Edited January 22, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Mal]

Not to start a war but

 

Wiki - Jargon is terminology that relates to a specific activity, profession or group. Much like slang it develops as a kind of shorthand, to quickly express ideas that are frequently discussed between members of a group. In many cases a standard term may be given a more precise or specialized usage among practitioners of a field.

 

So it seems pretty much like jargon to me.

[三江源]

Not to start a war but

 

Wiki - Jargon is terminology that relates to a specific activity, profession or group. Much like slang it develops as a kind of shorthand, to quickly express ideas that are frequently discussed between members of a group. In many cases a standard term may be given a more precise or specialized usage among practitioners of a field.

 

So it seems pretty much like jargon to me.

 

ok.

 

I'm not starting a war. I think 'touchiness' is taking the place of an ability to discuss and exchange ideas on this site for many members.

 

 

disapointing.

Edited January 22, 2008 by cat

[Wayfarer64]

mwight has a good idea that may be a cool project for some of us to help him with...Encluding a couple of Bums who can translate !! Cat is correct in my opinion that we need to be careful not to over simplify this though, 'cause the meanings are complex & subtle and easily confusing- which is also why it seems a good idea to me to try and sort these out as mwight suggests...

 

The flame was retarded from the get-go, provocateurs are now amongst us - probably some neo-nazi-born- again- red- necks who wish to act educated... The mind set that is projected by these few newbies, ( that do nothing but slam, provoke and belittle), is one of deep ignorance dressed up as erudition...

 

What ya don't know can't help ya -and what ya do know can change...

 

Beware the Monkey demon...!

Edited January 22, 2008 by Wayfarer64

[Eric23]

Thanks for noticing, Eric, you've got a sharp eye... artist, right? I'm still giggling

 

I just couldn't help myself Somebody just had to stand up and state the obvious.

Edited January 22, 2008 by Eric23

[Eric23]

Sometime last year we were having a discussion here on TB and TheLearner brought up the old tradition of writing out sacred texts in your own words. I would say the mwight's idea of him re-writing this book in his own words for his own use would have great benefit for him. Don't know about distributing it, but the basic idea has merit.

 

Stand in dragon stance, while focusing on the moon, and sun, and merge the dragon and the tiger in the lower cauldron and then plunge that into the original cavity of the spirit, convert lead into mercury, and nourish the sacred fetus.

 

If I were pondering the meaning of this passage the first thing I would do is research how one assumes the dragon stance and then learn how to do it. That alone could take several months to a year, which should give you plenty of time to research the metaphorical meanings of the rest of it.

[三江源]

 

Stand in dragon stance, while focusing on the moon, and sun, and merge the dragon and the tiger in the lower cauldron and then plunge that into the original cavity of the spirit, convert lead into mercury, and nourish the sacred fetus.

 

If I were pondering the meaning of this passage the first thing I would do is research how one assumes the dragon stance and then learn how to do it. That alone could take several months to a year, which should give you plenty of time to research the metaphorical meanings of the rest of it.

 

That is a very constructive and practical good idea.

 

And 'pondering the meaning' is a nice receptive process oriented phrase which can result in a deep and rounded understanding as it suggests other parts of the self will be engaged other than purely logos functionality.

[VCraigP]

Not to start a war but

 

Wiki - Jargon is terminology that relates to a specific activity, profession or group. Much like slang it develops as a kind of shorthand, to quickly express ideas that are frequently discussed between members of a group. In many cases a standard term may be given a more precise or specialized usage among practitioners of a field.

 

So it seems pretty much like jargon to me.

 

Mal

 

Well played. A bit of defining your terms goes a long way eh?

 

English can be so strange. When not everyone can even fully agree on what a particular term is referring to in our language, what hope do we have of making sense of symbolic "jargon" from another language describing arcane processes. it is so easy to just take one word the wrong way in such a forum as this and the whole meaning you are trying to convey goes out the window.

 

FWIW I like your approach of trying to make sense of the Jargon by defining the symbolic language for yourself in a way that helps you integrate what you have learned.

 

Craig

[doc benway]

I would really like to do a retranslation of Taoist Yoga By Charles Luk.

 

As it is the translation is barely intelligible by my feeble western mind.

 

I am going to OCR it to a text file and then replace terms I find useless with more western descriptive ones.

 

Would anyone here be up for helping me redefine terms, I plan on making the re-re-translation available to everyone who own a physical copy of this book.

Some interesting discussion here - I'll echo the suggestions of Eric, Wayfarer, and Taomeow.

I'll add this:

I can't say for certain without seeing the source but I suspect the translation is pretty accurate. The terminology of Daoist cultivation is not at all sensible or straightforward. It is replete with metaphor and literary allusion. Furthermore, it attempts to capture ineffable experiences in words which (like Laozi says in his first chapter of Dao de jing) is simply impossible.

 

My experience has been that once I've experienced a phenomenon in my meditation or martial training, I can then read about it and understand a bit. If I read about it without having experienced it, there is usually little recognition or value. A good example of this is reading the Taiji classics - as you begin to feel what's happening, the writings start to make sense - in the begining, it's just words. I had a similar experience with cultivation texts like The Secret of the Golden Flower.

 

As an aside - if you plan to retranslate Taoist Yoga, consider spending a little time studying The Secret of the Golden Flower - it would be well worth reading an English version (Cleary's is adequate) and comparing to the original Chinese to get an idea of what Daoist cultivation texts are like. It is one of the shortest and simplest of the canon yet is extraordinarily ellusive. It really only makes sense in the context of experience. Taoist Yoga gets more into specific methods but is referring for the most part to this basic process.

 

I think a retranslation of Taoist Yoga will be exceedingly difficult but the process may well be very educational for those wrestling with it. I've done some translating mostly of martial arts stuff and it has taught me a great deal (snake creeps down, indeed!).

 

Good luck! I really enjoy the martial translating work I do for my sifu but it ain't easy.

Edited January 22, 2008 by xuesheng