Tao in the human world

[moment]

Einstein in his Theory of Relativity posits that all time has happened at the same time.  That the past, present and future already is.  Hmmmmm!  It is all a mystery to me.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Tao in the human world is funny allowing the human mind to be in charge instead of the great kind minister of shen to direct affairs and keep all in balance.

 

If human mind was to take control we could live in a world like this, so funny it's sad. At least we do not attach to suchness and surf the wave in our favor. The great mystery beyond preconceived thought, the home land we have never left. soak up the light. and enjoy the sunrise for the first time.

 

 

[Taomeow]

Methinks human mind, as well as human jing, qi, and shen, have been hijacked.  I even remember when and how it happened to me, in stages. 

 

An example: stage 168, discovering that people cheat and lie toward creating an unreality of their choosing, the kind that they believe gives them a personal advantage.  I discovered it at the age of 4 playing hopscotch with other girls in the neighborhood.  I saw one of them move the marker inconspicuously and expertly with her foot to a "correct" square after landing it in an incorrect one, and then vehemently deny it and accuse me of lying when I pointed it out.  Then another one did it when an opportunity presented itself.  Then I realized they all did it when an opportunity presented itself.  I realized I was at that point the only player who played by the rules, and playing by the rules meant being at a great disadvantage.  Everybody cheated.  It made no sense to me for the longest time.  What's the point of playing if you don't want to find out where you really stand in the game?  Yet the bogus victory in the unreal world was sought by everybody instead.  I had a strong sense of reality, it was the only thing that mattered -- and lying and cheating felt like an incomprehensible wanton destruction of the only thing that mattered.

 

Another example: stage 175, at the same age, discovering that I can't resist this kind of pressure.  One of my best friends wanted us to steal some items.  I refused, she told me she wouldn't be friends with me anymore if I don't participate.  She rationalized the act and made it the right thing to do, and my refusing to participate, a kind of unforgivable betrayal.  She was so adamant, so passionate, that I wound up agreeing.  We stole those items (some pieces of very cheap plastic costume jewelry), but the next day in kindergarten the teacher asked me where I got that plastic brooch and I said, "I stole it from such and such yesterday," because stealing under pressure was one thing, but lying to cover it up was a skill I hadn't developed yet.   And then revelation number 176 followed: there was no explaining to my parents how it happened, they didn't care about the origin of the transgression, they didn't want to help me figure out how exactly I should have extricated myself from the complicated situation that led to the crime, they only wanted to punish, and punish excessively, which led to revelation number 177: people have anger inside that sits in ambush waiting for an opportunity to be discharged at someone weaker.  And so on.  

 

Neuroscience has determined that the human brain is 95% complete by age 5, and 95% of all it will ever learn has already been learned.  Draw your own conclusions...

[lifeforce]

I can relate to your post, Taomeow.

Around the age of 5, I was awakened to the cruel 'ways of the world', and my reality was shattered, when a neighbour's child, a little younger than me, stole my prized possession from my hand. My beautifully embroidered handkerchief, given to me by my mother which I carried everywhere. When confronted, the boy didn't even try to lie, he admitted to the act and just laughed about it without any remorse.

That incident stayed with me, and to a certain degree, still does today. I was brought up with good manners, to respect people, and their property. Something I have instilled successfully  into my own children. 

We all have the power to rise above the wrongdoings of the world and to live virtuous lives.

[Marblehead]

11 hours ago, moment said:

Einstein in his Theory of Relativity posits that all time has happened at the same time.  That the past, present and future already is.  Hmmmmm!  It is all a mystery to me.

Don't believe that.  He had something strange in his pipe when he said that.

 

[moment]

On 1/13/2018 at 3:03 AM, Marblehead said:

Don't believe that.  He had something strange in his pipe when he said that.

 

In this time and place, I too, find it hard to believe.

Still. his pipe is was much better than ours

Edited July 5, 2019 by moment
typo

[Walker]

On 1/12/2018 at 0:01 PM, Taomeow said:

 

Man, you should go out more often.  Six thousand years of the taoist tradition hold fast to this concept, but you had to Indo-European-bomb the thread about "tao in the human world" with the Hindu-Vedic-originating competing concept, Pratītyasamutpāda, "dependent arising" -- your "cause and effect" doctrine at its ideologically motivated root.  Ideologically motivated because without this doctrine you can't have karmic punishment, heaven/nirvana for the pious/obedient  and hell /samsara for the sinners/heretics/dissidents.  In other words, it's a major tool of control of the masses, not a "pure" philosophy.   

 

 An anarchist who subscribes to Pratītyasamutpāda is an oxymoron. 

 

 

I agree that Marblehead should get out more often. Way more often. But it is important to be careful with "dependent arising."

 

In Buddhism (I cannot speak about any other tradition that uses this concept), nothing arises nor disappears. There is only the illusion of the arising and disappearance of things from the standpoint of un-awake minds. The Buddhist teaching on the "12 links of dependent origination" does not tell us how actual things come into actual being; it tells us how we reify the objects our minds create. Because emptiness and form are one and the same, awakening does not end this process in the mind, much less transport one to a different universe or change the way this one functions. Awakening is being aware of how the illusion functions. 

 

Thus, when the Heart Sutra states, "no ignorance or ending of ignorance, up to and including no old age and death or ending of old age and death," this is a reference to 12 links of dependent origination (see Red Pine's book on this sutra). A teaching so penetrative most certainly does not--if understood correctly--put the student in the position at the whims of what you call "a major tool of control of the masses."

 

While there are certainly plenty of Buddhists who believe in the "karmic punishment, heaven/nirvana for the pious/obedient  and hell /samsara for the sinners/heretics/dissidents" you identify, such beliefs do not find strong support in the actual sutras. That so many Buddhists don't realize this isn't really that surprising--sutras are often long and usually require much contemplation; simplistic, moralistic rubrics seem to get more traction with a great many people. But since we here aspire to be more than parrots, we should look at the opening and closing statement of the Lonaphala Sutra: 

 

"Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, that is how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, there is no opportunity for the right ending of stress. But for anyone who says, 'When a person makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the opportunity for the right ending of stress."

 

The sutra then goes onto explain that the way and degree to which things are experiences is a measure of one's wisdom, not a measure of one's actual actions. "Karmic punishment, heaven/nirvana for the pious/obedient  and hell /samsara for the sinners/heretics/dissidents" is not at all what this sutra teaches await us.

 

Do the teachings on pratītyasamutpāda and yin-yang contradict one another? Do true sages contradict each other? Laozi said sages undertake to teach without words. On his deathbed, Shakyamuni said he never once spoke the Dharma. Where is there room for contradiction? If there is, why did Qiu Chuji's master instruct Daoists to study the Heart Sutra and the Daodejing side by side?

 

Returning to the initial post, if one's mind can house pleasant dimensions, one's mind cannot not be home to home ugly dimensions, too. The teachings of pratītyasamutpāda and the simultaneous arising of yin and yang are both present here.

[Marblehead]

6 hours ago, Walker said:

 

I agree that Marblehead should get out more often. Way more often. But it is important to be careful with "dependent arising."

 

 

Nice that so many of my friends think I should get out more.  Sometimes I go for over a week without leaving my property.  No place to go, nothing to do.  Wu Wei!

 

Yes, this concept is more related to Buddhism than it is to Taoism but I won't fuss about it.

 

 

[Taomeow]

8 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Nice that so many of my friends think I should get out more.  Sometimes I go for over a week without leaving my property.  No place to go, nothing to do.  Wu Wei!

 

Yes, this concept is more related to Buddhism than it is to Taoism but I won't fuss about it.

 

 

 

To Hinduism, originally.  Then to Buddhism that inherited and reinterpreted it.  And it is no different from any other Indo-European doctrine concerned with the matter and includes (though is not limited to) the one you proclaimed, but is different from the taoist one.  That was my whole point.  

 

I sometimes think I should abandon written word altogether, given the peculiarities of what passes for reading comprehension skills in my contemporaries.  I don't even know how they work in this shape and form exactly, but they render written communication mighty pointless.  I make a point, and then someone notices a key word (hooray!  Key word!) and turns my point 180 degrees around, apparently honestly believing that the context in which I used it doesn't exist because nothing but the key word was noticed.  And then a dictionary definition (or a scriptures rendition) of that word is mirrored back to me in a most baffling manner.  I said "this concept is not taoist" and the argument against this assertion goes, "this concept is more buddhist than taoist."         

 

I should get out less.   

[Marblehead]

I always enjoy talking with you.  We speak from different perspective so we are bound to have misunderstandings.  This has never bothered me.

 

It has been said that Buddha went to China and never returned to India.

 

I said "this concept is not taoist" and the argument against this assertion goes, "this concept is more buddhist than taoist."   

 

So, yeah, I enjoyed the discussion anyhow.

[Marblehead]

10 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

 I would like to think that he wasn't silly enough to say that (but I don't know one way or the other...). At the very least, it's not what his geometric model says or even necessarily implies.

Yes, strange too that he refused to accept the Big Bang theory even after his own calculations proved its probability.  Einstein was a rather Christian religious person.

[moment]

12 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

 I would like to think that he wasn't silly enough to say that (but I don't know one way or the other...). At the very least, it's not what his geometric model says or even necessarily implies.

 

In physics, Past, Present, Future are all the same thing. But for us, time moves in one direction. The question of time's direction is an old one.  

Actually, Einstein, Feynman, and Hawking have all concluded that the past, present, and future exist at the same time.

A well-known quote by Einstein after a good friend died was this  "Now Besso has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion." --- Albert Einstein

IMHO a large part of the problem is that they are talking about at least four dimensions and sometimes more.  Which opens up a tremendous can of worms.  I suspect that all of these ideas are only partial truths.  After all, we are finite beings trying to understand the infinite.

[Marblehead]

10 minutes ago, moment said:

 

In physics, 

Only for those physicists who smoke too much silly weed. 

 

Those who believe such cannot accept the Big Bang theory, the expansion of the universe, or even evolution.

 

There is a past; a time before we were born.

 

There is a present; the time we are now living during.

 

There is a future; a time when we no longer exist.

 

We cannot non-exist, exist and non-exist all at the same time.  It's not even logically possible.

 

 

[moment]

4 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Only for those physicists who smoke too much silly weed.

Marblehead,

 

I can not just summarily dismiss three of the greatest minds of the last 100 years as smoking too much silly weed.  I too, disagree with them.  It also seems illogical to me.  But, having said that, I also know that I think in a linear fashion in an infinite universe that probably does not have a linear source.  It is my understanding that, the universe is a linear process emanating from the Dao.  The Dao is a non-linear state of being.  So, it follows: that to become more with the Dao, we must cultivate in ourselves, an ever more non-linear state of mind. Enlightenment may be nothing more than to be able to, mentally and spiritually, step in and out of linear processes.

 

“It appears, therefore, more natural to think of physical reality as a four-dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three-dimensional existence.”--Albert Einstein

 

I think I will go meditate on it or maybe not.  I guess I will just do what feels right.  再见

 

 

Edited January 15, 2018 by moment
typo

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, moment said:

Marblehead,

 

I can not just summarily dismiss three of the greatest minds of the last 100 years as smoking too much silly weed.  I too, disagree with them.  It also seems illogical to me.  But, having said that, I also know that I think in a linear fashion in an infinite universe that probably does not have a linear source.  It is my understanding that, the universe is a linear process emanating from the Dao.  The Dao is a non-linear state of being.  So, it follows: that to become more with the Dao, we must cultivate in ourselves, an ever more non-linear state of mind. Enlightenment may be nothing more than to be able to, mentally and spiritually, step in and out of linear processes.

 

“It appears, therefore, more natural to think of physical reality as a four-dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three-dimensional existence.”--Albert Einstein

 

I think I will go meditate on it or maybe not.  I guess I will just do what feels right.  再见

 

It was not my intention to belittle their thoughts on this subject.  However, I think that if an honest search were done of why this concept came forth in their mind we will find that they are a result of religious thoughts planted in their brain at a very early age.

 

BTW  I consider the fourth dimension to be space/time.  But, at the present time there is no way for us to travel in space/time.

 

 

 

[moment]

3 hours ago, Marblehead said:

It was not my intention to belittle their thoughts on this subject.  However, I think that if an honest search were done of why this concept came forth in their mind we will find that they are a result of religious thoughts planted in their brain at a very early age.

 

BTW  I consider the fourth dimension to be space/time.  But, at the present time there is no way for us to travel in space/time.

Some researchers hope to find wormholes that connect to different sections of space-time.  Woo-Hoo!

String theory assumes at least ten dimensions.  It is a mystery to me (but fun).

example: The conscious flat square could only perceive lines. It would take a visit from the third dimension by a sphere to make the flat square truly aware of another dimension.

 

Edited January 15, 2018 by moment

[Marblehead]

I think that science is going to find that wormholes are going to be unattainable and even useless if there are such things.

 

[moment]

1 minute ago, Marblehead said:

I think that science is going to find that wormholes are going to be unattainable and even useless if there are such things.

Maybe

[Marblehead]

Just now, moment said:

Maybe

Good posture.  I'm a little bent over.

 

[vonkrankenhaus]

15 hours ago, Marblehead said:

There is a past; a time before we were born.

 

There is a present; the time we are now living during.

 

There is a future; a time when we no longer exist.

 

At this point in what you describe, the past is just currently remembered, a memory.

 

And the future is just a mental projection, a currently conceived idea.

 

So - IS there really a past and a future? 

 

And, if there are - aren't they actually just happening right now?

 

You cannot show us the "past", nor the "future" if we ask you for them.

 

You can only show us things that "refer" to them.

 

You can say they "did" exist, or "will" exist - but not that they actually DO exist.

 

You can "assume" the concept of causality would explain that there "had to have been" a past, and "should be" a future.

 

 But those are just assumptions - "ideas".

 

Do you really know from actual experience, and not assumption, that there was in fact a time when you didn't exist?

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Marblehead]

5 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

I have been presented this argument before and really, it is the best argument regarding this concept.

5 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

At this point in what you describe, the past is just currently remembered, a memory.

But the past is written in stone, not only remembered.  This is observable.  I was sleeping before I awoke.  I was younger yesterday than I am today.

 

5 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

And the future is just a mental projection, a currently conceived idea.

This is true.  Tomorrow hasn't happened yet so all we can do is assume that there will be a tomorrow.  And tomorrow's today will be yesterday - the past. 

 

5 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

So - IS there really a past and a future?

Well, in the past I made a pot of coffee so I am able to drink some now.  In the future I will have to make another pot so that I will have some to drink in the future's now moment.

 

5 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

And, if there are - aren't they actually just happening right now?

Yes, thee "now moment" is the only time that really matters.  But we do need remember the lessons of the past and we also need prepare for the future should we have one.

 

5 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

You cannot show us the "past", nor the "future" if we ask you for them.

This is true.  All I can show you is the "now moment".  But I can show you images of the past and I can also show you anticipations of the future, or at least tell you about them.

 

5 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

You can only show us things that "refer" to them.

This is true but isn't life all about mental images?

 

5 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

You can say they "did" exist, or "will" exist - but not that they actually DO exist.

True.  Only the "now moment" exists.  But the past did exist and with a little luck there will be a future.

 

5 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

You can "assume" the concept of causality would explain that there "had to have been" a past, and "should be" a future.

Yes, sometimes in life we must make assumptions.

 

5 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

 But those are just assumptions - "ideas".

And ideas equal life.

 

5 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

Do you really know from actual experience, and not assumption, that there was in fact a time when you didn't exist?

Personally?  No.  But understanding the processes of nature leads me to believe that there was a time I did not exist.  There is no evidence to the contrary to cause me to think otherwise.

 

I agree with your theme that we should live in the "now moment" and not concern our self too much with either the past or the future.  But still, the past is important because most of us have learned valuable lessons from previous "now moments" and we should also devote a little planning for our future "now moments" should we be fortunate enough to have some.

 

We can't change the past, but we can act now, in the present, to hopefully make our future days more enjoyable

[Wu Ming Jen]

The best part of beginning and ending is before the beginning and after the ending then we know the past and the future and this amazing feat changes nothing, we are still a third party. so a woodpecker walks into a bar and ask is the bar tender here? 

 

What changes does not require a witness, it is not a performance art or entertainment to watch as an observer.The illusion is being the witness and in life we adjust by being the victim, the prosecutor and the judge in an endless cycle.

 

Meanwhile what has never changed is completely overlooked, timeless, eternal, before and after, during the day and at night. The reason some maybe scared to be alone in the dark is because they feel that they are not alone.

 

As a kid I was scared of the dark as an adult my power bill makes me scared of the light. the difference between artificial light and real light is that real light is free.

 

This does not work out well for the established system of consumers so others can make money when you make money or spend money. Let's just all agree that this piece of paper with a number on it has value and we will all get along just fine, it is just not real this is why we pay for the artificial and not the real..

 

 

[thelerner]

Let me throw this in. 

Somethings don't have to be true or logical to be useful.  The concept of past/present/now being the same can be an powerful mental tool.  Abiding there gives a deep sense of patience and peace.  It knocks causality on its head and opens the mind a bit.  So.. very useful. 

 

 

 

Best to time things

with an hour glass.

When we want more time

we can always flip it over. 

Edited January 16, 2018 by thelerner

[vonkrankenhaus]

5 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I agree with your theme that we should live in the "now moment" and not concern our self too much with either the past or the future.  But still, the past is important because most of us have learned valuable lessons from previous "now moments" and we should also devote a little planning for our future "now moments" should we be fortunate enough to have some.

 

But, as you agree, this is all happening at once, right now.

 

So our remembrances and our projections are things we currently do, no matter what or "when" they refer to.

 

Every time we do them, we are doing them right then.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[silent thunder]

The present moment.  Much in comon with Tao it seems to me.

 

Unmeasurable and ungraspable.  As soon as I measure it, it has passed.  Yet it is never used up, always now endures.  Eternal, untouchable and unwithering.  And indivisible.  All occurences are now, all memories are recalled now and all future ruminations happen now.

 

My mind and memory create a sense of time through my comparison of the flow of changes I observe.  Yet this is dependent on my own personal perception, which is subjective, filtered and projective.  

 

I know I cannot trust my perception of time based solely on my tools of perception.  If this were the case, then we would all likely still be espousing the truths that the Earth is flat, does not spin or move in any way and that the sun and celestial bodies swirl around us.

 

There are times to touch truth we must reach beyond what is obvious to our senses and to our short term, logical easy assessment thinking.

 

It's tough for sure.  My logical perceptual mind cannot and likely will not reconcile all time as one.  And that is fine.  It does not neted to, in order to be and do what it has adapted to become.

 

Yet there is for me a palpable, unshakable sense, a knowing in my bones, that there is no meaningful marker, no possible distinguishable separator from one moment and the next.  The present is one great flow, of which my perception is a tiny a2are portion thereof.

 

This has been made very palpable just now as I have spent the last 90 hours in a dark windowless room.  Puncuated by faces and hands, needles and words exchanged, all merging in my memory as one long flowing soup of healing, pain and change.

 

Celestial change seems real, but not time in the human sense.  Tuesday morning @10 am is a purely illusory and made up mental concept with no basis for any actual reality.

 

So I side with Einstein.  Or rather the knowing in my bones does, in spite of the railing fist my logical mind lifts and shakes at him in consternation.