Merging and guru yoga

[3bob]

so Jonesboy I'd say that a "his" essence is the same as the essence and the essence is what knows that... already,  

 

as for any differences in states of being,  well yes there are differences in the matrices that essence works or passes through which is what it sounds like to me you are concentrating on...

 

[Jonesboy]

46 minutes ago, 3bob said:

so Jonesboy I'd say that a "his" essence is the same as the essence and the essence is what knows that... already,  

 

as for any differences in states of being,  well yes there are differences in the matrices that essence works or passes through which is what it sounds like to me you are concentrating on...

 

 

I am saying it is possible to merge, become one with such a being and the difference in the depth of the water is a powerful one.

[3bob]

I'd say that a merger, so to speak, as far as it is mentally and lovingly possible between two particular "beings" is a fine and important thing,  but a True Guru will help one to the essence - (which is beyond measure) and not to a dependence upon them for essence or because to a student they seem to have more depth. (of essence)  Thus freedom of Spirit unto Spirit is the true desire...

Edited January 10, 2018 by 3bob

[Jonesboy]

17 hours ago, C T said:

 

When that realisation is reached, in its ideal sense, then yes, there is an unmistakable recognition that one's enlightened nature is not different, not same as the buddhas' enlightened natures. But to find one who has fully stabilised this realisation is quite rare. At that point it is said that wisdom and compassion flows as one. Prior to this, its important to know how to separate expedient methods of practice and glimpses of insight, and the actual, stable flow of unimpeded primordial wisdom. 

 

Thank you CT,

 

I would agree that at that stage it is no longer a merging but a being and a knowing. Much like the Father and I are one at this stage.

 

Before that for those not to that depth it is a progression like everything else.

[Jonesboy]

15 hours ago, 3bob said:

I'd say that a merger, so to speak, as far as it is mentally and lovingly possible between two particular "beings" is a fine and important thing,  but a True Guru will help one to the essence - (which is beyond measure) and not to a dependence upon them for essence or because to a student they seem to have more depth. (of essence)  Thus freedom of Spirit unto Spirit is the true desire...

 

Hi 3bob,

 

I don't think you get what I am saying.

 

In no way am I talking about some lovie dovie emotional stuff. That is silly.

 

A True Guru is one that has realized that essence to a degree that it can be shared. That sharing of oneness of grace is best stated like this.

 

He is the Guru who goes on giving knowledge

with facility, without strenuous practice

and the like, as one moves from island to island.

Difficult to obtain is the Guru whose mere

instruction gives rise to knowledge, even as food

gives instant contentment to the hungry.

Many are the Gurus like lamps in house and

house; but rare is the Guru who lights up all

like the sun.

 

..

Many are the Gurus who rob the disciple of

his wealth; but rare is the Guru who removes

the afflictions of the disciple.

 

Many are they who are given to the discipline

and conduct according to varna (class),

asrama (stage) and kula (family); but he who is

devoid of all volition is the Guru rare to find.

He is the Guru by whose very contact there

flows the supreme Ananda; the intelligent

man shall choose such a one as the Guru and

no other.

KULARNAVA TANTRA

 

That sharing, that depth can move a student along faster than any practice. As a matter of fact with such sharing of essence the student can progress along without any sort of "practices". Such sharing allows the student to realize that essence first with the help of the guru and then to realize it on his own.

 

Also, any such talk of depth or even worry about someone being deeper is more of an obstruction, of ego than anything else. If one is so worried then they definitely are not ready for any type of Guru Yoga.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Jonesboy

[3bob]

umm, apparently you did not get what I was trying to express....which btw. does not conflict with the saying you quoted.

Also one could add to this subject by saying that the essence is using the form of the guru for its purposes, thus that is where (so to speak) that the water is already water... and putting a time or progression limit on being so does not really apply, for such limits only apparently apply.

Edited January 11, 2018 by 3bob

[Jonesboy]

55 minutes ago, 3bob said:

umm, apparently you did not get what I was trying to express....which btw. does not conflict with the saying you quoted.

Also one could add to this subject by saying that the essence is using the form of the guru for its purposes, thus that is where (so to speak) that the water is already water... and putting a time or progression limit on being so does not really apply, for such limits only apparently apply.

 

 

I wouldn't agree that the essence is using the form of the guru. The guru is the essence and it is first through him/her that one first touches the light/essence and then later realizes it for themselves. The guru is more than a conduit.

 

Nobody is putting a limit on anything. The only limit is yourself. How open you can be, how much can you trust and let go.

 

That is always what holds us back.

 

All I am saying is one can be helped greatly if one is open enough. Can be helped to move beyond all that stuff that apparently holds us back from such realizations  

 

Anyways, the things I am talking about don't seem to be practiced in Buddhism or again from my understanding possible. Which was the intent of my questions.

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by Jonesboy

[3bob]

perception from an apparent  outside-in is problematic...also even the greatest of particular Gurus, Buddhas and Gods are still of form although of very subtle and refined forms with light...while "essence" is beyond light but works with light,  thus essence can not really be named, limited to, be dependent upon, or be tied only to the greatest of particular beings; for essence reveals that to the true guru (and to their student) only by the power that essence works in and through the guru, thus not by the power of a particular "him' or "her" self.  And If one comes across a guru that says otherwise I would suggest that one quickly runs the other way.  

Edited January 11, 2018 by 3bob

[Jonesboy]

22 minutes ago, 3bob said:

perception from an apparent  outside-in is problematic...also even the greatest of particular Gurus, Buddhas and Gods are still of form although of very subtle and refined forms with light...while "essence" is beyond light but works with light,  thus essence can not really be named, limited to, be dependent upon, or be tied only to the greatest of particular beings; for essence reveals that to the true guru (and to their student) only by the power that essence works in the guru, thus not by the power of a particular "him' or "her" self.  And If one comes across a guru that says otherwise I would suggest that one quickly runs the other way.  

 

 

Essence is the light. If you can show me any texts that states it is otherwise I would love to see it.  Emptiness is beyond the light, not some other essence. It is a very interesting concept that there is more beyond a Buddha, of some essence that a Buddha hasn't realized.

 

The guru is the light, has realized the light. When the student connects to the guru the light flows through. The light does the work not the guru. For the guru he is just being, not doing. It is not like reiki or of the ego where you see an obstruction and work on removing it. You let the light do the work. Otherwise it is of ego.

 

Maybe that is what you are getting at.. I would agree then that it is the light that does the work, not the ego or what the guru thinks should be worked on.

 

But first you have to find a guru that has had such a realization.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by Jonesboy

[3bob]

"Neti, neti", even includes the first of subtle light/prana.  "Prana springs from the Self" per the Chandogya upanishad...ah but this is the Buddhsit forum so I have said enough already.  Best wishes to you

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by 3bob

[Jonesboy]

1 minute ago, 3bob said:

"Neti, neti", even includes subtle light/prana.  "Prana springs from the Self" per the Chandogya upanishad...ah but this is the Buddhsit forum so I have said enough already.  Best wishes to you

 

 

Okay,

 

Feeling energy and being that energy/light are two different things.

 

One is felt, the other is realized.

 

A huge difference and one I think we can both agree on.

[3bob]

energy, including subtle energy is still of a category and name-able...but i like your point/image.

Edited January 11, 2018 by 3bob

[Jonesboy]

15 minutes ago, 3bob said:

energy, including subtle energy is still of a category and name-able...but i like your point/image.

 

With that I think we would start to debate over some Hindu stuff in the Buddhist section.

 

Thanks for the great conversation

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Jonesboy said:

 

 

Essence is the light. If you can show me any texts that states it is otherwise I would love to see it.  Emptiness is beyond the light, not some other essence. It is a very interesting concept that there is more beyond a Buddha, of some essence that a Buddha hasn't realized.

 

The guru is the light, has realized the light. When the student connects to the guru the light flows through. The light does the work not the guru. For the guru he is just being, not doing. It is not like reiki or of the ego where you see an obstruction and work on removing it. You let the light do the work. Otherwise it is of ego.

 

Maybe that is what you are getting at.. I would agree then that it is the light that does the work, not the ego or what the guru thinks should be worked on.

 

But first you have to find a guru that has had such a realization.

 

 

 

Hi Jonesboy,

Can you clarify what you mean by "emptiness is beyond the light?"

Thanks

Steve

 

[3bob]

 one can not completely re-memory or talk about it, since memory and talk can not hold it...

[Jonesboy]

5 minutes ago, 3bob said:

 one can not completely re-memory or talk about it, since memory and talk can not hold it...

 

Which is why a true realization can share it

 

Such re-memory is an indication of a taste and not a being.

 

If one still has different states of being.. one has not arrived but still on the path.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Jonesboy

[Jonesboy]

6 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Hi Jonesboy,

Can you clarify what you mean by "emptiness is beyond the light?"

Thanks

Steve

 

 

Sure to me the realization of the light at the level we talking of is Universal Mind. In KS that one would be One like Siva.

 

A Buddha is one that has realized the emptiness of Universal Consciousness or more poorly said has realized that which is beyond the light. Or for a Buddha one could say the light is infinite potential.

 

Or to drive everyone crazy, a little Jesus quote

 

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

 

That place is the Dao or emptiness.

[doc benway]

Thanks

[Apech]

Hi guys,

 

I put some thought into Jonesboys merging thing and I do think there are different ways of understanding this issue.

 

If I can paint a picture for illustration purposes it might help with this (maybe  ).

 

If we say that reality is something like a field of energy/consciousness and that individual beings are modalities within this field - say like little whirlpools in an ocean or planets in Einsteinian space/time - then we have four possible merges.

 

If we take two beings A + B - where A is the master and B the student.

 

1.  A + B transcend their individuality and 'merge' in the field.

2.  A + B somehow superimpose and attenuate to the max degree possible their 'skins'.

3.  A activates his own being which transmits through field vibration to B.

4.  A realises own nature as being not-different to the energy of the field, B realises own nature as being not different to the energy field thus in this sense A is not different to B.

 

Now this is not taken from Buddhadharma - its just so we can discuss.

 

I would say that 4. is closest to guru-yoga provided you understand the lineage factor aswell.

 

This is straight off the top of my head so feel free to comment.

 

 

[Apech]

Here is new topic split from Buddhist section

[3bob]

5. A realizes he is not A, for nature realizes its nature and that it is free to play in the field as a form  A and or rest in its own nature as it always does,  B has read and heard many things about an A and he has all sorts of ideas and plans for A, but nature has other plans for B... that it can use form A to help carry out.  

[Apech]

A charges B 1,999.00$ and gives him a DVD and a free plastic statue.

[cold]

17 minutes ago, Apech said:

A charges B 1,999.00$ and gives him a DVD and a free plastic statue.

 

If A learns to merge on the freeways with the help of a DVD, and the dashboard plastic statue of Jesus gives him the courage to do so, its money well spent!

[Jonesboy]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

Hi guys,

 

I put some thought into Jonesboys merging thing and I do think there are different ways of understanding this issue.

 

If I can paint a picture for illustration purposes it might help with this (maybe  ).

 

If we say that reality is something like a field of energy/consciousness and that individual beings are modalities within this field - say like little whirlpools in an ocean or planets in Einsteinian space/time - then we have four possible merges.

 

If we take two beings A + B - where A is the master and B the student.

 

1.  A + B transcend their individuality and 'merge' in the field.

2.  A + B somehow superimpose and attenuate to the max degree possible their 'skins'.

3.  A activates his own being which transmits through field vibration to B.

4.  A realises own nature as being not-different to the energy of the field, B realises own nature as being not different to the energy field thus in this sense A is not different to B.

 

Now this is not taken from Buddhadharma - its just so we can discuss.

 

I would say that 4. is closest to guru-yoga provided you understand the lineage factor aswell.

 

This is straight off the top of my head so feel free to comment.

 

 

 

Hi Apech,

 

If we are talking the Master and the student as you have described think about like this.

 

A=Master

B = Student

 

A has realized that they are that field which is all things to one degree or another.

B  has not had the same realization, realized that state of being.

 

A, knowing that he is not this form but really that light that essence as described above can become one with anything or anyone.

 

B, with the help of the master can merge with a Divine being or merge with the master.

 

Such merging is a very powerful means of removing obstructions that block our clarity of having such a realization. Because it is so powerful the student progresses quickly along the path.

 

So as the student progress, lets go of more and more junk he realizes that his nature is the same as the master or the deity.

 

It is really much like Guru Rinpoche describes:

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Why is it important to practice the yidam deity?

 

The master replied: It is essential to practice a yidam deity because through that you will attain siddhis, your obstacles will be removed, you will obtain powers, receive blessings, and give rise to realization. Since all qualities result from practicing the yidam deity, then without the yidam deity you will just be an ordinary person. By practicing the yidam deity you attain the siddhis, so the yidam deity is essential.

 

Instead of thinking of a yidam as mantra and visualization. Think more those Divine beings are real and any such connection or merging is a powerful thing. Of course that also depends on how open the student is and there relative depth and clarity.

 

This is also very intuitive.

 

2.  A + B somehow superimpose and attenuate to the max degree possible their 'skins'.

 

Think of A and B being two circles. Think of A as a bigger circle and B as a smaller circle. The size as representive of ones clarity or depth of realization.

 

When you merge A and B, B would fit inside of A is how we would normally think of this. Yet when one merges what is happening is A is filling in all of B. It is an expanding outwards of B. So it is very much like you said to the max degree possible their skins. The merging is actually with the support of the master or the deity helping you to expand what you thought was your max.

 

Or said a different way. Through the merging one experiences silence and energy flowing in them, as them or around them. That energy hits upon obstructions like any other energy practice. The silence from merging with such a being allows for the ease of letting go of issues. Because one is also being taken deeper or to higher levels of being with such a merge the process is very effective.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Jonesboy

[C T]

From the standpoint of the mahayana/tantra scriptures, it is said nothing exists outside our own minds. Even Yeshe Tsogyal's master, Guru Padmasambhava, stressed this right from the beginning of his teachings.