Merging and guru yoga

[Miroku]

19 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

You seem to be saying something different than Steve regarding no energy connection. Is the "transmission" simply the knowledge/teachings of a specific group/lineage? Or do you get more "stuff" like the blessings you say that will appear? Like what kind of things are "blessings"?

 

I am quite careful when using words like "energy". And I do not mean to really negate what Steve says but I do not thing the energy is the right word here. It is possible that what I mean by blessing is what he means by energy. Don't know and don't have time to read all the comments. So sorry for such intrusion without knowledge of context.

Yes that is my understanding of transmission. You gain the ability to change impure vision into pure (more like knowledge how to do it since pure vision is here always) and use mantras etc.. Also you get the chance to really use and study and practice the teachings given. Withotu transmission there is no vajrayana.

 

Blessings are part of the transmission as empowerment can enhance your practice even if you do not practice the particular deity you have been empowert to do. If you do not have empowerment you can say bilions of mantras, but nothing happens as there is no transmission and no blessings.

 

What are blessings? Well, that is a hard one. It might simply be that things go smoothly, that you develop compassion, your daily life goes well, but it also can be that some bad stuff in your life happens (you lose job etc.) and that helps you on the path. But I think it mostly is that you develop slowly that is the great blessing. Also it is that you see the nature of mind, that is a blessing. Also that you develop mindfulness, compassion and devotion, that is a blessing. Who is source of blessings? Lama is. What is the greatest blessing? Recognizing the nature of mind.
 

But when speaking about these things we must bare in mind they come with time and practice. Yes you might have transmission, but if you don't take a medicine what is the point of having it in your drawer? If you practice and work with the transmission then blessings come and you develop. But every rule has its exception and some people develop quite fast thanks to past lives.

 

Hope this makes sense I am tired.

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

Thank you very much for your responses, but they raise more questions...

 

You stated that..."There are also many non-verbal, non-conceptual transmissions that occur between teacher and student" and also "Yes, guru yoga is very energetically direct and is all about connecting." So what is being "transmitted"?

These are two different things.

 

Guru yoga is very specific - it is letting go of the mind and all of its "stuff" and resting in its unadulterated, unfabricated essence.

I don't think it would be accurate to say that anything is being transmitted or merged. Connection does not necessarily imply transmission. I think Miroku's response is spot on with one exception, I do think there is a powerful energetic connection going on. It all depends on how we define energy. So much of this sort of discussion tends to be an apples/oranges thing. For example, no one has adequately defined for me what is being merged, what merger means, and so forth.

 

The relationship between teacher and student is a human relationship, this is not equivalent to guru yoga.. All sorts of things are being transmitted as between any 2 human beings. Hopefully most of what is being transmitted is information and energy that is supportive of both teacher and student. 

 

Quote

And are you also saying that a buddhist teacher forms an energetic connection to the student?  What is the purpose of such a connection if it is not possible to help with the realization?

Absolutely, it can be a very powerful, close, and loving relationship.

In fact, the relationship to the teacher and the lineage is at the heart of guru yoga.

 

Does connection need a purpose?

It's my position that connection is our natural tendency and our natural state.

The ills of the world, IMO, are largely due to a lack of connection.

Life in samsara is nothing other than a lack of connection.

 

For sure the connection between teacher and student is intended to and does help and support spiritual growth and realization on many levels. There is also value in connection outside of spiritual objectives, however, when you boil it down it seems that anything related to openness and connection are ultimately useful in our spiritual lives.

[Jeff]

20 minutes ago, steve said:

These are two different things.

 

Guru yoga is very specific - it is letting go of the mind and all of its "stuff" and resting in its unadulterated, unfabricated essence.

I don't think it would be accurate to say that anything is being transmitted or merged. Connection does not necessarily imply transmission. I think Miroku's response is spot on with one exception, I do think there is a powerful energetic connection going on. It all depends on how we define energy. So much of this sort of discussion tends to be an apples/oranges thing. For example, no one has adequately defined for me what is being merged, what merger means, and so forth.

 

The relationship between teacher and student is a human relationship, this is not equivalent to guru yoga.. All sorts of things are being transmitted as between any 2 human beings. Hopefully most of what is being transmitted is information and energy that is supportive of both teacher and student. 

 

Absolutely, it can be a very powerful, close, and loving relationship.

In fact, the relationship to the teacher and the lineage is at the heart of guru yoga.

 

Does connection need a purpose?

It's my position that connection is our natural tendency and our natural state.

The ills of the world, IMO, are largely due to a lack of connection.

Life in samsara is nothing other than a lack of connection.

 

For sure the connection between teacher and student is intended to and does help and support spiritual growth and realization on many levels. There is also value in connection outside of spiritual objectives, however, when you boil it down it seems that anything related to openness and connection are ultimately useful in our spiritual lives.

 

Thank you again very much for your responses.  So by energetic connection you meant close, supportive and loving relationship?  Like an open and sharing connection that is how we should all naturally relate (but often don't) and not some sort of "energetic transmission" or any sort of "mind to mind" or "energy body" to "energy body" thing?

[3bob]

in electrical terms two electrical generating devices and or powered up busses can merge if their frequency and voltage are the same or within a hair of each other and then very quickly become the same....this is also what is called and takes place when synchronizing a smaller individual generator to a much larger or main buss.  Btw, the amperage of the two during and after synchronization are not the same although their total amperage together feeds and equals what is on said buss, thus everything else that is connected down the line and drawing power will be at same voltage and frequency and have whatever amperage is available per its distribution to various loads on the buss. 

Edited January 16, 2018 by 3bob

[Fa Xin]

49 minutes ago, steve said:

These are two different things.

 

Guru yoga is very specific - it is letting go of the mind and all of its "stuff" and resting in its unadulterated, unfabricated essence.

I don't think it would be accurate to say that anything is being transmitted or merged. Connection does not necessarily imply transmission. I think Miroku's response is spot on with one exception, I do think there is a powerful energetic connection going on. It all depends on how we define energy. So much of this sort of discussion tends to be an apples/oranges thing. For example, no one has adequately defined for me what is being merged, what merger means, and so forth.

 

The relationship between teacher and student is a human relationship, this is not equivalent to guru yoga.. All sorts of things are being transmitted as between any 2 human beings. Hopefully most of what is being transmitted is information and energy that is supportive of both teacher and student. 

 

Absolutely, it can be a very powerful, close, and loving relationship.

In fact, the relationship to the teacher and the lineage is at the heart of guru yoga.

 

Does connection need a purpose?

It's my position that connection is our natural tendency and our natural state.

The ills of the world, IMO, are largely due to a lack of connection.

Life in samsara is nothing other than a lack of connection.

 

For sure the connection between teacher and student is intended to and does help and support spiritual growth and realization on many levels. There is also value in connection outside of spiritual objectives, however, when you boil it down it seems that anything related to openness and connection are ultimately useful in our spiritual lives.

Nice 👍 

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

Thank you again very much for your responses.  So by energetic connection you meant close, supportive and loving relationship?  Like an open and sharing connection that is how we should all naturally relate (but often don't) and not some sort of "energetic transmission" or any sort of "mind to mind" or "energy body" to "energy body" thing?

 

A close, supportive, and loving relationship are certainly components of an energetic connection. 

 

We all seem to be in some degree of agreement that there is a level of foundational connectivity, whether we refer to it in terms of non-duality, oneness, God, whatever... That is the basis for my comment that our natural state is connected and that disconnection is the source of our troubles.

 

People often use the word 'energy' loosely, particularly in the New Age (not using that as a negative), and I sometimes wonder precisely what they are referring to. Like Miroku, I try to use the "E" word with some degree of caution. This is in part due to my scientific background. Spiritual practice and growth has expanded my understanding of what can be labelled energy but to answer your final question, I would need to know precisely what you are referring to by "energetic transmission" whether that be between minds or energy bodies. You seem to draw a line of distinction between "energetic transmission" of minds/energies bodies, and things like closeness, love, support, openness, and sharing. For me, these are all powerful forms of energetic transmission involving the mind and energy body.

 

 

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, steve said:

 

A close, supportive, and loving relationship are certainly components of an energetic connection. 

 

We all seem to be in some degree of agreement that there is a level of foundational connectivity, whether we refer to it in terms of non-duality, oneness, God, whatever... That is the basis for my comment that our natural state is connected and that disconnection is the source of our troubles.

 

People often use the word 'energy' loosely, particularly in the New Age (not using that as a negative), and I sometimes wonder precisely what they are referring to. Like Miroku, I try to use the "E" word with some degree of caution. This is in part due to my scientific background. Spiritual practice and growth has expanded my understanding of what can be labelled energy but to answer your final question, I would need to know precisely what you are referring to by "energetic transmission" whether that be between minds or energy bodies. You seem to draw a line of distinction between "energetic transmission" of minds/energies bodies, and things like closeness, love, support, openness, and sharing. For me, these are all powerful forms of energetic transmission involving the mind and energy body.

 

Yes, it is fair to say that I am trying to draw the distinction. Closeness, love, support, etc... are all very important and valuable in relationships, but not what I meant.  Maybe think of what I am trying to describe as the energy "underneath" or driving the emotional aspects you are describing. In our broader the discussion, you could probably just simplify it down to whether it is possible to share an actual "direct taste" or not. In a way trying to define how much a guru can "help" in your lineage/tradition.

 

Thank you again (and everyone else) for the discussion. To me this is a very interesting topic.

 

p.s. I also have no problem with the New Age comment. My thoughts on all of this stuff are pretty radical.  

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Yes, it is fair to say that I am trying to draw the distinction. Closeness, love, support, etc... are all very important and valuable in relationships, but not what I meant.  Maybe think of what I am trying to describe as the energy "underneath" or driving the emotional aspects you are describing. In our broader the discussion, you could probably just simplify it down to whether it is possible to share an actual "direct taste" or not. In a way trying to define how much a guru can "help" in your lineage/tradition.

 

Thank you again (and everyone else) for the discussion. To me this is a very interesting topic.

 

p.s. I also have no problem with the New Age comment. My thoughts on all of this stuff are pretty radical.  

 

I believe the traditional position would be no - it is not possible to share an actual direct taste.

 

 

 

 

 

[senseless virtue]

Yesterday my teacher taught that all the Enlightened beings already exist in our mindstreams. It is our habitual patterns or karmic energies that create a disconnection and an inability to experience that reality. Guruyoga, deity yoga, and some spontaneous forms of temple dance are examples of how to get attuned to their pure energies.

 

We each have our unique paths of least resistance and resonate more with some teachings and teachers than with others. From dualistic perspective it's alright to speak of merging and transmissions because your karmic ordinary mind subsides. In the absolute sense we never assume any other role than abiding in dharmakaya, so the roles, masks, and personalities of Buddhas are just different flavors for getting there.

Edited January 17, 2018 by virtue

[3bob]

I'd also say another way to describe it is that all the enlightened beings (or otherwise) are unique matrix's for one Being (or Being-ness if one prefers) that is transcendent to mind.

Edited January 17, 2018 by 3bob

[doc benway]

17 hours ago, Miroku said:

 

I am quite careful when using words like "energy". And I do not mean to really negate what Steve says but I do not thing the energy is the right word here. It is possible that what I mean by blessing is what he means by energy. Don't know and don't have time to read all the comments. So sorry for such intrusion without knowledge of context.

Yes that is my understanding of transmission. You gain the ability to change impure vision into pure (more like knowledge how to do it since pure vision is here always) and use mantras etc.. Also you get the chance to really use and study and practice the teachings given. Withotu transmission there is no vajrayana.

 

Blessings are part of the transmission as empowerment can enhance your practice even if you do not practice the particular deity you have been empowert to do. If you do not have empowerment you can say bilions of mantras, but nothing happens as there is no transmission and no blessings.

 

What are blessings? Well, that is a hard one. It might simply be that things go smoothly, that you develop compassion, your daily life goes well, but it also can be that some bad stuff in your life happens (you lose job etc.) and that helps you on the path. But I think it mostly is that you develop slowly that is the great blessing. Also it is that you see the nature of mind, that is a blessing. Also that you develop mindfulness, compassion and devotion, that is a blessing. Who is source of blessings? Lama is. What is the greatest blessing? Recognizing the nature of mind.
 

But when speaking about these things we must bare in mind they come with time and practice. Yes you might have transmission, but if you don't take a medicine what is the point of having it in your drawer? If you practice and work with the transmission then blessings come and you develop. But every rule has its exception and some people develop quite fast thanks to past lives.

 

Hope this makes sense I am tired.

Yes, it makes good sense.

I hope you got some rest!

 

Energy can be defined as the capacity for a system to do work.

It is intended to refer to physical systems but if we are careful to define our terms, I think it a useful concept to apply here.

In the spiritual arena, we can look at the system as the practitioner, the guru, and the lineage. 

The work is spiritual practice and growth, preservation of the system and working towards the benefit of sentient beings.

The energy includes the blessings of the lineage and the devotion of the practitioners, among other things.

Just one way to look at it.

It may not be a correct usage of the term, strictly speaking, but I find it to be consistent with the intended meaning of energy and helpful for appreciating the relationship between the lineage and practitioners.

 

 

[doc benway]

11 hours ago, steve said:

 

I believe the traditional position would be no - it is not possible to share an actual direct taste.

 

I'd like to add that it is equally valid to state that all tastes are shared given that the union occurs in non-dual space.

In that space, there is no personal distinction.

[Miroku]

10 minutes ago, steve said:

Yes, it makes good sense.

I hope you got some rest!

 

Energy can be defined as the capacity for a system to do work.

It is intended to refer to physical systems but if we are careful to define our terms, I think it a useful concept to apply here.

In the spiritual arena, we can look at the system as the practitioner, the guru, and the lineage. 

The work is spiritual practice and growth, preservation of the system and working towards the benefit of sentient beings.

The energy includes the blessings of the lineage and the devotion of the practitioners, among other things.

Just one way to look at it.

It may not be a correct usage of the term, strictly speaking, but I find it to be consistent with the intended meaning of energy and helpful for appreciating the relationship between the lineage and practitioners.

 

 

Thank you for the explanation it is very appreciated.
And no I didn't get almost any rest.

[Jeff]

26 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I'd like to add that it is equally valid to state that all tastes are shared given that the union occurs in non-dual space.

In that space, there is no personal distinction.

 

Now you are touching on how it is possible to do a merge. But while there is no personal distinction in that non-dual space, there is the “potential” for it that gives the duality that we live in. As, the Tao Te Ching states in the first part of chapter 28...

 

TWENTY-EIGHT

Know the strength of a man,

But keep a woman’s care!

Be the stream of the universe!

Being the stream of the universe,

Ever true and unswerving,

Become as a little child once more.

Know the white, But keep the black!

Be an example to the world!

Being an example to the world,

Ever true and unwavering,

Return to the infinite.

...

 

The important part relevant to the discussion is “know the white” (nondual), “but keep the black” (dualist separation of individual beings), and then you can “be an example to the world” (merge part of that). Also, important to be “ever true and unwavering” (don’t get caught up in those other beings issues/fears).

[Apech]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Now you are touching on how it is possible to do a merge. But while there is no personal distinction in that non-dual space, there is the “potential” for it that gives the duality that we live in. As, the Tao Te Ching states in the first part of chapter 28...

 

TWENTY-EIGHT

Know the strength of a man,

But keep a woman’s care!

Be the stream of the universe!

Being the stream of the universe,

Ever true and unswerving,

Become as a little child once more.

Know the white, But keep the black!

Be an example to the world!

Being an example to the world,

Ever true and unwavering,

Return to the infinite.

...

 

The important part relevant to the discussion is “know the white” (nondual), “but keep the black” (dualist separation of individual beings), and then you can “be an example to the world” (merge part of that). Also, important to be “ever true and unwavering” (don’t get caught up in those other beings issues/fears).

 

You have missed the balance and harmony of this chapter - it is about becoming p'u - and uncarved block which is the non-dual and natural state to which you refer but wrongly equate to being 'white'.  In fact the whole chapter is based on three pairings which highlight the dual/ non-dual nature and the Way, using Feng English translation as follows:

 

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 28

Know the strength of man,
But keep a woman's care!
Be the stream of the universe!
Being the stream of the universe,
Ever true and unswerving,
Become as a little child once more.

Know the white,
But keep the black!
Be an example to the world!
Being an example to the world,
Ever true and unwavering,
Return to the infinite.

Know honour,
Yet keep humility!
Be the valley of the universe!
Being the valley of the universe,
Ever true and resourceful,
Return to the state of the uncarved block.

When the block is carved, it becomes useful.
When the sage uses it, he becomes the ruler.
Thus, "A great tailor cuts little."

 

So we have three pairs of 'knowing one' and 'guarding or keeping' the other:

 

man + woman = stream of universe

white + black = example to the world

honour + humility = valley of the universe

 

'stream' here means something like a channel (for qi).

 

The white/black is very suggestive of the Taiji and thus yang/yin although for the time of this writing this might be anachronistic - but still valid I would suggest - thus the non-dual is expressed in exactly the ability to hold white/black, male/female, honour/humility and thus the value of the uncontrived state of the uncarved block (which I would equate to the Rigpa natural state of Buddhism).

[Jeff]

42 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

You have missed the balance and harmony of this chapter - it is about becoming p'u - and uncarved block which is the non-dual and natural state to which you refer but wrongly equate to being 'white'.  In fact the whole chapter is based on three pairings which highlight the dual/ non-dual nature and the Way, using Feng English translation as follows:

 

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 28

Know the strength of man,
But keep a woman's care!
Be the stream of the universe!
Being the stream of the universe,
Ever true and unswerving,
Become as a little child once more.

Know the white,
But keep the black!
Be an example to the world!
Being an example to the world,
Ever true and unwavering,
Return to the infinite.

Know honour,
Yet keep humility!
Be the valley of the universe!
Being the valley of the universe,
Ever true and resourceful,
Return to the state of the uncarved block.

When the block is carved, it becomes useful.
When the sage uses it, he becomes the ruler.
Thus, "A great tailor cuts little."

 

So we have three pairs of 'knowing one' and 'guarding or keeping' the other:

 

man + woman = stream of universe

white + black = example to the world

honour + humility = valley of the universe

 

'stream' here means something like a channel (for qi).

 

The white/black is very suggestive of the Taiji and thus yang/yin although for the time of this writing this might be anachronistic - but still valid I would suggest - thus the non-dual is expressed in exactly the ability to hold white/black, male/female, honour/humility and thus the value of the uncontrived state of the uncarved black (which I would equate to the Rigpa natural state of Buddhism).

 

No, we are talking about different things.  Buddhist views and the concept of "Rigpa" are not part of the Tao Te Ching, they are different frameworks.  Your concept of rigpa, more relates as a form of being the "stream of the universe". A ruler immortal ( block that has been carved and then used by the immortal who has become the valley of the universe) is very different. Such an "immortal" does not really exist in buddhism.  The closest approximation is found with the coming of the Twin Tower buddha in the Lotus sutra.

 

[Jonesboy]

10 hours ago, virtue said:

Yesterday my teacher taught that all the Enlightened beings already exist in our mindstreams. It is our habitual patterns or karmic energies that create a disconnection and an inability to experience that reality. Guruyoga, deity yoga, and some spontaneous forms of temple dance are examples of how to get attuned to their pure energies.

 

So you could say that with enough clarity and depth one can find all beings within themselves and connect to them?

[Apech]

15 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

No, we are talking about different things.  Buddhist views and the concept of "Rigpa" are not part of the Tao Te Ching, they are different frameworks.  Your concept of rigpa, more relates as a form of being the "stream of the universe". A ruler immortal ( block that has been carved and then used by the immortal who has become the valley of the universe) is very different. Such an "immortal" does not really exist in buddhism.  The closest approximation is found with the coming of the Twin Tower buddha in the Lotus sutra.

 

 

 

Well in the sense that I should have used the word 'compare' and not 'equate' as I don't like reading between systems - I agree that they are different -  but otherwise I would stand by what I said - I think your explanation of what the uncarved block is another of your interpretations.

[doc benway]

24 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

No, we are talking about different things.  Buddhist views and the concept of "Rigpa" are not part of the Tao Te Ching, they are different frameworks.  Your concept of rigpa, more relates as a form of being the "stream of the universe". A ruler immortal ( block that has been carved and then used by the immortal who has become the valley of the universe) is very different. Such an "immortal" does not really exist in buddhism.  The closest approximation is found with the coming of the Twin Tower buddha in the Lotus sutra.

 

 

I'm not sure I would necessarily equate sage with immortal.

The Hanzi in this chapter refers to the sage - 聖人 (sheng ren)

An immortal is usually referred to as 仙 (xian) or 神仙 ( shen xian)

Certainly there is some precedent for interchanging sage and immortal, just as there is precedent in using either word to refer to an enlightened one in the Buddhist sense.

[Jeff]

Just now, Apech said:

 

 

Well in the sense that I should have used the word 'compare' and not 'equate' as I don't like reading between systems - I agree that they are different -  but otherwise I would stand by what I said - I think your explanation of what the uncarved block is another of your interpretations.

 

Fair enough, we simply disagree on the interpretation.  But, my point was really on the explanation on how a "merge" is theoretically possible. As I said in an earlier post, it is possible in Taoism and mystical Christianity, and not really in the buddhist framework. As Steve and others have stated, such direct sharing of "taste" is not possible/available in their tradition.

 

Whether one thinks there is merit or not to a merge is potentially up to debate, but as everyone who has experienced it directly knows, it is definitely possible. 

[Jonesboy]

Maybe we can move away from the topic of merging for a few.

 

How about this.

 

Is it possible for one person to directly introduce another to deeper states of being?

 

Not through instructions but by directly touching another's mindstream for instance.

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I'm not sure I would necessarily equate sage with immortal.

The Hanzi in this chapter refers to the sage - 聖人 (sheng ren)

An immortal is usually referred to as 仙 (xian) or 神仙 ( shen xian)

Certainly there is some precedent for interchanging sage and immortal, just as there is precedent in using either word to refer to an enlightened one in the Buddhist sense.

 

Fair enough on terms.  The relevant point is the stages as described in the chapter.  We are talking about a "sage" that has already become/realized the "valley of the universe" and become "uncarved", but there is still a being that takes/uses the role that is necessary.  All showing that there is still the ability/potential of differentiation.

[senseless virtue]

24 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

So you could say that with enough clarity and depth one can find all beings within themselves and connect to them?

Yes. It is well known in Mahayana Buddhist philosophy, and also in Guru Rinpoche's teachings in particular, that nothing exists outside of your own mind. Through enlightening practice you will discover this experimentally, verify that there was no real separation between any being, and realize the actual non-duality of mind beyond words.

 

Without any reference to energy, it's about habitually recalling your original nature and getting used to it. Really simple.

 

10 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

Is it possible for one person to directly introduce another to deeper states of being?

 

Not through instructions but by directly touching another's mindstream for instance.

The entire traditions of guruyoga and deity yoga are based on direct introduction to the original nature of mind which is as profound state being as it gets. There are instructions, but the part of the student is really only about opening up and being receptive to blessings and higher awareness.

Edited January 17, 2018 by virtue
poor language

[Jeff]

7 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

Maybe we can move away from the topic of merging for a few.

 

How about this.

 

Is it possible for one person to directly introduce another to deeper states of being?

 

Not through instructions but by directly touching another's mindstream for instance.

 

Guess I don't see how that is really any different than what we are already discussing?  Also, don't you have to even define what a deeper state of being is to discuss it?

[Jonesboy]

27 minutes ago, virtue said:

Yes. It is well known in Mahayana Buddhist philosophy, and also in Guru Rinpoche's teachings in particular, that nothing exists outside of your own mind. Through enlightening practice you will discover this experimentally, verify that there was no real separation between any being, and realize the actual non-duality of mind beyond words.

 

Without any reference to energy, it's about habitually recalling your original nature and getting used to it. Really simple.

 

The entire traditions of guruyoga and deity yoga are based on direct introduction to the original nature of mind which is as profound state being as it gets. There are instructions, but the part of the student is really only about opening up and being receptive to blessings and higher awareness.

 

So your answer is no.