Merging and guru yoga

[Jonesboy]

29 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Guess I don't see how that is really any different than what we are already discussing?  Also, don't you have to even define what a deeper state of being is to discuss it?

 

I guess to keep things simple.

 

How about a mind/body that is not experiencing silence or energy experiencing silence and or energy by the direct introduction from another?

[senseless virtue]

16 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

So your answer is no.

Highly cultivated beings are keenly following the rule of respecting free will, so generally these direct introductions require prior consent, hence following some instructions and agreeing to the procedure is required.

 

It also depends on what you require as "instructions". Some of them require more initial dedication and "effort" to realize the original state, but some just prepare the student for a passive part. If you don't relax and allow, then how could you attain a pure state where blockages dissolve?

 

In Flying Phoenix Qigong the tradition says its founder Fung Dou Dak received the art through a spontaneous vision from a goddess. People receiving unasked for mystical visitations and visions have a long recorded history. Shaktipats and blessings, if these qualify as catalysts for "deeper states of being", can also happen whether wanted or unwanted, but there are karmic conditions and merit required in all these.

Edited January 17, 2018 by virtue
wrong word

[Jeff]

7 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

I guess to keep things simple.

 

How about a mind/body that is not experiencing silence or energy experiencing silence and or energy by the direct introduction from another?

 

To me that sounds like better suited to a new topic, as it does not really relate to guru yoga or merging.

[Jonesboy]

31 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

To me that sounds like better suited to a new topic, as it does not really relate to guru yoga or merging.

 

To me, introducing someone to deeper levels of silence seems very guru yoga related.

[Trunk]

Wow.  I am inspired. 

Many excellent posts, good communication, refined topic. 

*whew*  thanks, I needed that, lol.

[Fa Xin]

8 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

I guess to keep things simple.

 

How about a mind/body that is not experiencing silence or energy experiencing silence and or energy by the direct introduction from another?

For a long time, I always thought “This is possible, yes.  but it’s impermanent and therefor another illusion. Not the truth. It can be taken away. ”

This is still true to me. Can’t get attached...

 

Then, however, I met someone who could provide that introduction.  Now I see there actually is a lot of benefit in working with a connection like that.

 

Someone can show you how to get out of the woods if your lost... They will guide you out. But you wake up the next day and your lost in the woods again. They continue to show you, and you start to remember the way yourself. Pretty soon your out of the woods completely. Whether you stay out or go back in to help others who are lost is up to you. 

 

Technically the woods don’t exist anyway right? Lol... 

 

 

[dwai]

9 hours ago, virtue said:

Highly cultivated beings are keenly following the rule of respecting free will, so generally these direct introductions require prior consent, hence following some instructions and agreeing to the procedure is required.

Well it’s not possible to show the way to someone who’s like a block of wood and has no desire to learn. There always has to be an active desire to learn and become free. 

9 hours ago, virtue said:

 

It also depends on what you require as "instructions". Some of them require more initial dedication and "effort" to realize the original state, but some just prepare the student for a passive part. If you don't relax and allow, then how could you attain a pure state where blockages dissolve?

Yes indeed. Sometimes we spend 10-20 years learning to meditate. Just doggedly keep at it until one day the mind is clear enough to get a glimpse. Then it’s easier ever since. But also maybe someone helps us clear the mind by sharing presence or a touch of a finger. I’m speaking about myself here...been through it all. 

9 hours ago, virtue said:

 

In Flying Phoenix Qigong the tradition says its founder Fung Dou Dak received the art through a spontaneous vision from a goddess. People receiving unasked for mystical visitations and visions have a long recorded history. Shaktipats and blessings, if these qualify as catalysts for "deeper states of being", can also happen whether wanted or unwanted, but there are karmic conditions and merit required in all these.

How does one know that a “visitation” by someone who is not a “god or goddess or immortal” isn’t ordained as a result of fruit of their karma?

 

Most people have no idea about karma. They know suffering. People usually begin seeking to end their suffering. I mean real seeking, not chasing siddhis and parlor tricks. Until one has been through the grinding mill a few times around, they wouldn’t know if grace came and but them in the butt. The most important to do is keeping an open mind and an empty cup. But usually that too is only learnt after a few rounds in the mill  

 

[Mark Foote]

12 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

Maybe we can move away from the topic of merging for a few.

 

How about this.

 

Is it possible for one person to directly introduce another to deeper states of being?

 

Not through instructions but by directly touching another's mindstream for instance.

 

I did like Fa Xin's reply, about taking a walk in the woods.

There's this:

 

 

Tokusan was studying Zen under Ryutan. One night he came to Ryutan and asked many questions. The teacher said:

 

“The night is getting old. Why don’t you retire?”

 

So Tokusan bowed and opened the screen to go out, observing: “It is very dark outside.”

 

Ryutan offered Tokusan a lighted candle to find his way. Just as Tokusan received it, Ryutan blew it out.

 

 

Nasty old crow.  Ate all the breadcrumbs, too.

 

I can't help but be inspired by some people.  On some level, I can't help what I believe.  I have come to see that my actions follow my beliefs, whether I will the actions or not.  The actions that don't follow my beliefs, create some weird circle that brings me back where I started.

 

"One time Huike climbed up Few Houses Peak with Bodhidharma.  Bodhidharma asked, 'Where are we going?'  Huike said, 'Please go right ahead--that's it.'  Bodhidharma said, 'If you go right ahead, you cannot move a step.'

 

(Denkoroku, "Transmission of the Lamp" #30, trans. Cleary)

 

"Is it possible for one person to directly introduce another to deeper states of being"--so Huike is said to have found enlightenment at Bodhidharma's words (above), but to me what he got was an experience of his own action without "going right ahead". 

 

Seems like this is not what your question refers to--your question is whether or not someone can induce an altered state in another person, perhaps by their mere presence.  A contact high, as they used to say back in the day--am I getting this right?  Ok, maybe something more life-changing than a contact high, but by the same means.

 

I'm sure it's possible, but mostly what I've seen and read about is people who get guru-gobsmacked.  They feel something profound in the presence of the guru or teacher, but they become self-conscious and can't move a step.  

 

Is there a mind to mind transmission outside of scripture?--that's an accepted article of faith in Zen as far as I know, but it seems like a different question. 

 

I don't mean to denigrate seeking some deepened state of being through attendance on a teacher, but I'm guessing if there's no experience of action in the absence of the activities (habit or volition in speech, deed, and thought) as a result, not much has really transpired.

 

[Jonesboy]

8 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

"Is it possible for one person to directly introduce another to deeper states of being"--so Huike is said to have found enlightenment at Bodhidharma's words (above), but to me what he got was an experience of his own action without "going right ahead". 

 

Seems like this is not what your question refers to--your question is whether or not someone can induce an altered state in another person, perhaps by their mere presence.  A contact high, as they used to say back in the day--am I getting this right?  Ok, maybe something more life-changing than a contact high, but by the same means.

 

I'm sure it's possible, but mostly what I've seen and read about is people who get guru-gobsmacked.  They feel something profound in the presence of the guru or teacher, but they become self-conscious and can't move a step.  

 

Is there a mind to mind transmission outside of scripture?--that's an accepted article of faith in Zen as far as I know, but it seems like a different question. 

 

I don't mean to denigrate seeking some deepened state of being through attendance on a teacher, but I'm guessing if there's no experience of action in the absence of the activities (habit or volition in speech, deed, and thought) as a result, not much has really transpired.

 

 

Thank you Mark for your very nice reply.

 

No, I am not talking about some contact high from being around an advanced being. Though I am aware of that happening a lot with people.

 

More, I have seen with such contacts people with kundalini issues being cured, people with nightly panic attacks that would last for hours have them go away within days. I have seen people with such social phobia that going into a chat room was to much for them completely change and teach people. I have seen people that don't meditate or do any practices feel love from an open heart, feel energy from those around them, open their 3rd eye and more. 

 

I have seen people who are upset, lost in the mind with the help of the guru have the mind calmed, space given to allow the person to get past the upset.

 

I have seen people who have never experienced silence be awash in it in daily life, people who have never experienced Rigpa, be introduced and reside in it.

 

That is the type of stuff I am use to without even talking about divine beings and people feeling anything from peace to boundless love.

 

It is all real, it is all possible and more.

 

In my experience.

 

.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Jonesboy

[Jonesboy]

21 hours ago, virtue said:

Highly cultivated beings are keenly following the rule of respecting free will, so generally these direct introductions require prior consent, hence following some instructions and agreeing to the procedure is required.

 

It also depends on what you require as "instructions". Some of them require more initial dedication and "effort" to realize the original state, but some just prepare the student for a passive part. If you don't relax and allow, then how could you attain a pure state where blockages dissolve?

 

 

Hi virtue,

 

Very interesting comment about "Some of them require more initial dedication and "effort" to realize the original state" as that also goes along with earlier posts about non meditation and Dzogchen.

 

It is my understanding that one of the practices that is taught by Dzogchen Master Norbu is Shine.

 

In his book Dzogchen: The Practice of Contemplation the first thing he teaches is Shine with Object. The goal of shine with object is to experience silence and to be able to maintain this silence for hours.

 

When one has accomplished shine with object they then move to Shine without Object. The goal here is to loosen up the concentration just enough to feel the movement of thoughts as energy. Not to get lost in the thoughts but to feel thoughts as movement of energy. It can feel like the wind flowing through your brain. Like the twirling of a fan or like a raging river within you.

 

When one is able to maintain that flow of energy first in sitting practice and then in daily life one has realized Natural Shine and it is at this point where one is no longer meditating because it is more a state of being. It is also at this stage where Norbu say's one is truly ready for Dzogchen. Ready, I would assume for the pointing out instructions.

 

Is this what you are referring to with regard to some needing more effort? It's seems like you have to realize gyuwa before you can realize Rigpa or else any pointing out instructions would be lost.

 

Is this what you are familiar with?

Edited January 18, 2018 by Jonesboy

[senseless virtue]

1 hour ago, Jonesboy said:

Is this what you are referring to with regard to some needing more effort? It's seems like you have to realize gyuwa before you can realize Rigpa or else any pointing out instructions would be lost.

 

Is this what you are familiar with?

Yes, this was a good example of the long road to the natural state of mind. No, I am not experimentally familiar with this approach.

 

I have received the webcast transmission from Namkhai Norbu and tried to do atiyoga the way he taught it, but it wasn't to my liking. Apparently only very few have gained much development from this type of atiyoga teaching, and the reason for that might be that it would need to have additional zhine practice to make it stable and deep. I only got a clear and powerful experience of the natural state once I tried guruyoga and because of this success there is no reason now to look elsewhere.

[Leif]

On 18. 1. 2018 at 4:12 PM, virtue said:

the reason for that might be that it would need to have additional zhine practice to make it stable and deep. I only got a clear and powerful experience of the natural state once I tried guruyoga and because of this success there is no reason now to look elsewhere.

 

While it's not very stressed, zhine is more like a preliminary than additional practice, ideally one should be good at it already before getting transmission. Guruyoga is "if you don't have time, do at least this" in Dzogchen Community, base of everything.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Leif

[doc benway]

I have a slightly different perspective on zhiné that I'd like to share. Others may have had different instruction.

I've never had instruction in the Buddhist Dzogchen lineages so there may be differences, but I doubt they are significant other than with respect to the iconography. My comments are based on instruction in two different Dzogchen lineages in the Yungdrung Bön tradition: A Khrid (Teachings that Guide One to the Primordial State) and Zhangzhung Nyengyüd (Oral Transmission of Zhang Zhung).

 

Zhiné means calm abiding. In fact, calm abiding is the result of the practice rather than the practice itself. In the beginning we tend to be neither very calm nor abiding, we are struggling with continual distraction of the mind, discomfort from the practice, grasping at the object, and so forth. The practice of zhiné starts with intense and unwavering concentration. It is very effortful at first for most people because of the power and lifelong inertia of the thinking mind. We start with concentrating on a specific object. With time we can maintain continual connection to the object with less and less effort. Once we reach the point where we can let go of effort completely without losing connection we have achieved zhiné (calm abiding) and are ready to practice without an object. Once again we start with exerting some degree of effort to maintain connection without the support of an object and need to work towards being able to let go of all effort without losing connection to the present moment.

 

Zhiné is not technically considered a preliminary in the A Krid or Zhangzhung Nyengyüd cycles, it is considered a pointing out instruction. The preliminaries include practices of guru yoga, impermanence, refuge, bodhicitta, confession, mandala offerings, prostration, mantras, and so forth. In both systems, the ngöndro are completed first, followed by rushen practices. These are practices that help to distinguish between samsaric experience and more pure experience. These are a second level of preliminary practice. Next comes the introduction to the nature of mind.

 

In both A Khrid and Zhangzhung Nyengud, zhiné is used to introduce the student to the nature of mind. First zhiné allows us to look at the mind itself. While trying to focus on the object, the mind continually grasps at other things - thoughts, memories, visual effects, sounds, bodily sensations. Everything that arises is mind. As we become more familiar with looking at the mind, we begin to be able to distinguish the discursive mind from its essence, the nature of mind. Then when we develop certainty in this distinction through practice and feedback from the teacher, we continue to practice zhiné to develop stability in resting in the nature of mind. Once we have that stability and can rest in the nature of mind without distraction, without the need for an object, and without any effort whatsoever, we are essentially beginning to practice Dzogchen.

 

 

[Leif]

I didn't want to imply it being what's technically called 'preliminary practice', sorry about that - wrong wording choice.

[Mark Foote]

On 1/21/2018 at 10:45 AM, steve said:

In both A Khrid and Zhangzhung Nyengud, zhiné is used to introduce the student to the nature of mind. First zhiné allows us to look at the mind itself. While trying to focus on the object, the mind continually grasps at other things - thoughts, memories, visual effects, sounds, bodily sensations. Everything that arises is mind. As we become more familiar with looking at the mind, we begin to be able to distinguish the discursive mind from its essence, the nature of mind. Then when we develop certainty in this distinction through practice and feedback from the teacher, we continue to practice zhiné to develop stability in resting in the nature of mind. Once we have that stability and can rest in the nature of mind without distraction, without the need for an object, and without any effort whatsoever, we are essentially beginning to practice Dzogchen.

 

 

 

Dogen spoke of "actualizing the fundamental point" through "finding your place where you are" and through "finding your way at this moment"--just to be clear, when you say "rest in the nature of mind", you are referring to "actualizing the fundamental point", would that be right?  

I'm trying to distinguish between a passive state of inactivity, which "rest in the nature of mind" might be taken to  characterize, and a state in which posture or activity is actualized (the fundamental point being the heart-mind). 

[doc benway]

6 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Dogen spoke of "actualizing the fundamental point" through "finding your place where you are" and through "finding your way at this moment"--just to be clear, when you say "rest in the nature of mind", you are referring to "actualizing the fundamental point", would that be right?  

I'm trying to distinguish between a passive state of inactivity, which "rest in the nature of mind" might be taken to  characterize, and a state in which posture or activity is actualized (the fundamental point being the heart-mind). 

 

I'm not familiar with Dogen's terminology so I can't say for sure that I understand his intent.

I've read a bit of his writings and your post is stimulating me to want to read more.

 

You mention "finding your place where you are" and "finding your way at this moment."

Resting in the nature of mind is primarily about releasing all identification with the you and yet maintaining a deep connection to the present moment. It is very alive and engaged yet dis-identified, unrestricted, undefined, unfabricated, and unconceptualized. I find it relates strongly to Wu Wei. I suspect it is what Dogen is pointing to.

 

It does not mean physical, mental, or emotional inactivity although the early stages of practice occur during formal seated meditation. It is far easier to discover the difference between the mind and its essence when inactive. With certainty and stability, it is then possible to bring this practice to all activities of waking life, sleep, dream, and death - that is the practice.

 

I do think there are strong similarities between what I'm describing and what Dogen is referring to.

 

 

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, steve said:

 

I'm not familiar with Dogen's terminology so I can't say for sure that I understand his intent.

I've read a bit of his writings and your post is stimulating me to want to read more.

 

You mention "finding your place where you are" and "finding your way at this moment."

Resting in the nature of mind is primarily about releasing all identification with the you and yet maintaining a deep connection to the present moment. It is very alive and engaged yet dis-identified, unrestricted, undefined, unfabricated, and unconceptualized. I find it relates strongly to Wu Wei. I suspect it is what Dogen is pointing to.

 

It does not mean physical, mental, or emotional inactivity although the early stages of practice occur during formal seated meditation. It is far easier to discover the difference between the mind and its essence when inactive. With certainty and stability, it is then possible to bring this practice to all activities of waking life, sleep, dream, and death - that is the practice.

 

I do think there are strong similarities between what I'm describing and what Dogen is referring to.

 

 

 

Checking Wikipedia:

The literal meaning of wu wei is "without action", "without effort", or "without control", and is often included in the paradox wei wu wei: "action without action" or "effortless doing".

 

 

Here's where I love Dogen's choice of words--let me quote something of the original passage, from Genjo Koan:

"When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…"
 

So this is a thing of happenstance, finding oneself where one is, finding one's way at the moment.  Out of happenstance, a practice simply occurs.  

Later in Genjo Koan, Dogen adds a third observation:

"Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent."

 

 

 

That's what I'm driving at--the mind that is present without abiding can actualize as a posture, as a carriage or a movement, without any doer.  

 

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Mark Foote

[doc benway]

7 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Checking Wikipedia:

The literal meaning of wu wei is "without action", "without effort", or "without control", and is often included in the paradox wei wu wei: "action without action" or "effortless doing".

 

 

Here's where I love Dogen's choice of words--let me quote something of the original passage, from Genjo Koan:

"When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…"
 

So this is a thing of happenstance, finding oneself where one is, finding one's way at the moment.  Out of happenstance, a practice simply occurs.  

Later in Genjo Koan, Dogen adds a third observation:

"Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent."

 

 

 

That's what I'm driving at--the mind that is present without abiding can actualize as a posture, as a carriage or a movement, without any doer.  

 

 

 

I agree that Dogen's words are beautiful and I see them as describing my practice accurately but I may be interpreting them in a slightly different way. For me "finding your place where you are" can be seen as the dawning of rigpa - the self-knowing quality of the natural state. The precise knowledge of one's true nature, empty and self-illuminated. "Finding your way at this moment" can be seen as discovering the true practice, practice without a practitioner, non-meditation.

 

Two observations -

1. The first quotation you offer does not necessarily imply happenstance for me. I can practice intensely and through that effort find myself in that place where true practice occurs. After all we're talking about a master of Zen who stressed the importance of formal sitting. Rather than look at it as happenstance, I interpret this as reaching a point where we let go of the one who is practicing, see through the illusion of identifying with that one. That is not usually a random happenstance. This happens after many years of dedicated practice. Although I will acknowledge that, for me, the discovery of this true nature does not necessarily occur as a result of even the most ardent practice and may occur spontaneously for the newbie or non-practitioner. There is a component of karma and blessing present. Nevertheless, I believe Dogen believed strongly in the value of zazen to help reach this point.

2. The mind, in my paradigm, does not actualize anything. It is an observer that takes credit where none is due. It is not the true doer. Only when we see this and let go of the false identification with mind does actualization occur. We may be using the word 'mind' differently. I know there are differences between the Dzogchen and Zen paradigms regarding mind and its nature. 

Edited January 25, 2018 by steve

[Mark Foote]

1. The first quotation you offer does not necessarily imply happenstance for me. I can practice intensely and through that effort find myself in that place where true practice occurs. After all we're talking about a master of Zen who stressed the importance of formal sitting. Rather than look at it as happenstance, I interpret this as reaching a point where we let go of the one who is practicing, see through the illusion of identifying with that one. That is not usually a random happenstance. This happens after many years of dedicated practice. Although I will acknowledge that, for me, the discovery of this true nature does not necessarily occur as a result of even the most ardent practice and may occur spontaneously for the newbie or non-practitioner. There is a component of karma and blessing present. Nevertheless, I believe Dogen believed strongly in the value of zazen to help reach this point.

 

 

Dogen borrowed most of Fukan Zazengi, if I read Bielefeldt correctly, and I'm sure he did so because of the difficulty in describing how "zazen sits zazen" (as Shunryu Suzuki put it).  The Zen tradition in Japan does emphasize the importance of sitting the way Gautama described, cross-legged, although the length of the sitting period seems to vary between schools and even within schools.

It's my impression that the internal martial arts of China have many of the same benefits, in so far as yielding practice.

 

"Let the mind be present without an abode." --Diamond Sutra

 

The woodcutter heard that passage read aloud in a marketplace, and it changed his life.

 

I take it as a kind of easing into what already is, and for me, the mind that is present without an abode has a sense of place (even if it can shift around). 

 

At the same time, "people who are moving around outside all sit with you--they don't take the sitting posture", as Kobun Otogawa said, and that to me speaks of "finding my way at this moment."   

 

I don't disagree with what you say.  I'm only positing that the inconceivable may be actualized as getting up out of a cross-legged posture and walking across the room, for no apparent reason.

 

2. The mind, in my paradigm, does not actualize anything. It is an observer that takes credit where none is due. It is not the true doer. Only when we see this and let go of the false identification with mind does actualization occur. We may be using the word 'mind' differently. I know there are differences between the Dzogchen and Zen paradigms regarding mind and its nature.

 

Maybe it's "the wind that reaches everywhere" that gets up and walks across the room, but "the mind that is present without an abode" and the "people who are moving around outside" (that sit with me) are my usual suspects.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Mark Foote

[3bob]

components of "karma and blessing" were brought up in the last post which is key to what a True guru does - for it is a blessing to have the teeth of one's karma be stilled from grinding, along with karma being seen and pierced to whatever degree - per the power of that which is beyond karma.

Edited January 26, 2018 by 3bob

[Mark Foote]

"Although I will acknowledge that, for me, the discovery of this true nature does not necessarily occur as a result of even the most ardent practice and may occur spontaneously for the newbie or non-practitioner. There is a component of karma and blessing present." (Steve)

 

 

Here's D. T. Suzuki playing the devil's advocate on Gautama's advice (to sit down cross-legged, setting mindfulness before oneself):

 

https://ideapod.com/zen-master-explains-meditation-overrated-maybe-even-harmful/
 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Mark Foote

[Jonesboy]

What is ones true nature that even a newbie can experience?

 

I have seen true nature mentioned many times. Do you mind describing it for me?

[doc benway]

20 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

What is ones true nature that even a newbie can experience?

 

I have seen true nature mentioned many times. Do you mind describing it for me?

 

I assume that question is directed at me. 

Before I answer, can I ask if you actively practice meditation?

If so, what is your practice and tradition?

It will help me to respond effectively.

Thanks

[Jonesboy]

Hi Steve,

 

I haven’t meditated in years. More meditation and life are one and the same. It’s all about being at this point.

 

Please feel free to describe what ones True Nature as you have experienced it is like within any tradition or mixture that you wish.

 

Mark, I would love your input as well.

 

Thank you both.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Jonesboy

[Mark Foote]

Jonesboy, my guess is that you do something else, if you don't sit--dance, walk, play ping pong--something with concentration, am I right?  Myself, I sit and walk, I dance when my feet are moved, and I play the guitar when I feel inspired to do so.

 

I had to sit.  I was unhappy with myself as a teen, and I figured there was a lot for me to learn through sitting.  Kobun Chino Otogawa impressed me very much when I was in my early 20's, when he said "take your time with the lotus"--I figured that meant the posture could be a learning experience and I really would benefit from the effort to learn it.

 

You can find my description of what I've learned here, if you're interested. 

 

About completed infinities ("True Nature")--here's a paragraph or two from Dispute over Infinity Divides Mathematics:

 

Infinity has ruffled feathers in mathematics almost since the field’s beginning. The controversy arises not from the notion of potential infinity —the number line’s promise of continuing forever—but from the concept of infinity as an actual, complete, manipulable object.

 

Assuming actual infinity leads to unsettling consequences. Cantor proved, for instance, that the infinite set of even numbers {2,4,6,…} could be put in a “one-to-one correspondence” with all counting numbers {1,2,3,…}, indicating that there are just as many evens as there are odds-and-evens.

 

The mathematician Poincaré sums it up nicely for me (from Wikipedia, actual infinity):

 

There is no actual infinity, that the Cantorians have forgotten and have been trapped by contradictions. (H. Poincaré [Les mathématiques et la logique III, Rev. métaphys. morale (1906) p. 316])

 

I would say that the assumption of the existence of a completed infinite, as in "True Nature", or "Dao", or "God", will result in contradictions, and such an assumption isn't really required to benefit from the positive and substantive particulars in the most of the wisdom teachings of the world.

 

At the same time, there's a lot of useful mathematics that relies on the notion of a completed infinity for proof, and I would guess the majority of people on this earth find terms like "Dao" useful as a means of orientating themselves in everyday living. 

 

I think it is possible to talk about the boundaries of the senses, and somehow to perceive things that lie beyond those boundaries, and that perception may be characterized as "infinite" (as in "the infinity of ether", the perception of the first of the non-material meditative states--bearing in mind that the non-material states are marked by "uniformity with respect to the senses"). 

 

At least Gautama tended to describe things in mostly positive and substantive terms, as when he described how "the infinity of ether" was "the excellence of the heart's release" through the suffusion of the world with "a mind of compassion":

 

"[One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with compassion, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of compassion that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence."

 

(MN I 38, Pali Text Society volume I pg 48)

 

That's kind of how the "people moving around outside" sit with me, when I sit.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Mark Foote
Whoops!--the experience of the "infinity of ether" is associated with the extention of the mind of compassion, not friendliness (friendliness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity are all extended in the same way).