Merging and guru yoga

[s1va]

1 hour ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Yes,

 

Did you see where he talked about the Witness? I found that interesting.

 

Yes.  And, I mentioned his story as an example and reminder for myself.  Sometimes it feels that the empty awareness, or the state where there are no thoughts, or deep state of samadhi is the destination. What can possibly be there beyond awareness?  Not sure about that, but what can stop and start is not it for me.  The state of satchidananda is described generally as an eternal.

[Jonesboy]

It would be so nice to demonstrate the things described in this thread.

 

Helping someone connect and feel Jesus or Avalokiteśvara in ones heart for instance. To show that one can help another in powerful ways move along the path.

 

It would be fun but I fear any such demonstration would cause a lot of conflict with those members that think such sharing is harmful, dangerous or just not possible. Which I fear would lead to a lot of attacks as it has in the past.

 

On the other hand having discussions after such demonstrations with such advanced members as we have here for instance in this thread would make it all worth it. It just takes one to make it all worth it.

 

9. Jesus said, "Look, the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered (them). Some fell on the road, and the birds came and gathered them. Others fell on rock, and they didn't take root in the soil and didn't produce heads of grain. Others fell on thorns, and they choked the seeds and worms ate them. And others fell on good soil, and it produced a good crop: it yielded sixty per measure and one hundred twenty per measure."

 

So maybe... Any thoughts from those in this thread on this topic?

[doc benway]

6 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Please forgive me for making you feel like you are being judge or graded. That was far from my intent.

 

I am really just trying to figure out what you and Mark are referring to as ones True Nature.

 

I find you to be a very nice and deep guy.

 

Again, please forgive me if my questions came across in a negative light.

 

Thank you for all of your insights.

 

Also, that is a very beautiful poem

 

Nothing to forgive and no hard feelings.

 

It's the mind's nature (as opposed to the Nature of Mind) to judge, measure, and compare; to define and understand.

I didn't take it as negative but just as it is and, to be frank, I expected it but don't want to engage in that too much.

I just don't find it very helpful at this point.

 

Mind is forever in the realm of mind. 

It is not the Nature and will never truly know the Nature.
When it drops away, the clarity aspect of the Nature knows itself - that is Rigpa.

Mind is, however, a dynamic display of the energy, the tsal.

 

Whatever you think the Nature is, whatever we collectively conclude that it is, it's not that.

We can read a million descriptions by the greatest masters and think we know.

Sitting for a few minutes in skillful practice will teach us more about it than all the books on Earth.

We can understand it perfectly and never taste it.

I wrote that little poem to try and share a bit of how it tastes to me, not to define it.

 

Thank you very much for the kind words, I really appreciate that.

I also enjoy your presence here and your contributions.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by steve

[doc benway]

duplicate post... browser a little strange lately

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by steve

[Mark Foote]

They said to Him: Shall we then, being children,
enter the Kingdom? Jesus said to them:
When you make the two one, and
when you make the inner as the outer
and the outer as the inner and the above
as the below, and when
you make the male and the female into a single one,
so that the male will not be male and
the female (not) be female, when you make
eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand
in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place
of a foot, (and) an image in the place of an image,
then shall you enter [the Kingdom].

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 18-19 log. 22, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

Yeah, what he said.

 

"have no coughing or sighing in the mind-- with your mind like a wall you can enter the way"

 

(Denkoroku, attr. to Bodhidharma, translated by Thomas Cleary, pg 111)

 

When were these guys ever not entered into "The Kingdom", "the way", I wonder?   And yet they describe entering.

 

And for an opposing point of view, here's Avalokitesvara:

The Heart Suttra:

 

 Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva was moving in the deep course of wisdom which

has gone beyond. He looked down from on high and saw but five skandhas*

which, in their own being, were empty. Here, O Sariputra, Form is

Emptiness, Emptiness is Form; Form does not differ from Emptiness,

Emptiness does not differ from Form; whatever is Empty, that is Form,

whatever is Form that is Empty. The same is true of feelings, perceptions,

impulses and consciousness. O Sariputra all dharmas are marked with

Emptiness, they have no beginning and no end, they are neither imperfect nor

perfect, neither deficient nor complete. Therefore O Sariputra, in emptiness

there is no form, no feeling, no perception, no name, no concepts, no

knowledge. No eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no

forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touchables or object of the mind, no sight

organ, no hearing organ and so forth to no mind consciousness element; no

ignorance or extinction of ignorance, no decay and death, no extinction of

decay and death. There is no suffering, no origination, no stopping, no path,

no cognition, no attainment, nor anything to attain. There is nothing to

accomplish and so Bodhisattvas can rely on the Perfection of Wisdom

without trouble. Being without trouble they are not afraid, having overcome

anything upsetting they attain Nirvana.

 

All Buddhas who appear in the three periods, fully Awake to the utmost

right and perfect enlightenment because they have relied on the Perfection

 of Wisdom.  Therefore, one should know the Perfection of Wisdom is the great mantra, is the unequaled mantra, the destroyer of  suffering.

 

Gate, Gate, Paragate, Para Sam gate

Bodhi Svaha 

 

English:

Gone, Gone, Gone beyond Gone utterly beyond

Oh what an Awakening

 

(from here)

 

 

Ah, nothing to attain, nothing to accomplish (rubs chin).  Like the sound of that.

 

The Perfection of Wisdom.  The true nature.  

 

“Whatever… is material shape, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, (a person), thinking of all this material shape as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling… perception… the habitual tendencies… whatever is consciousness, past, future, or present… (that person), thinking of all this consciousness as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. (For one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body.”

(MN III 18-19, Pali Text Society III pg 68)

"Perfect wisdom". 

 

Do we sit down to let the day begin?  I do!

 

 

 

 

[Jonesboy]

8 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

They said to Him: Shall we then, being children,
enter the Kingdom? Jesus said to them:
When you make the two one, and
when you make the inner as the outer
and the outer as the inner and the above
as the below, and when
you make the male and the female into a single one,
so that the male will not be male and
the female (not) be female, when you make
eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand
in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place
of a foot, (and) an image in the place of an image,
then shall you enter [the Kingdom].

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 18-19 log. 22, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

Yeah, what he said.

 

"have no coughing or sighing in the mind-- with your mind like a wall you can enter the way"

 

(Denkoroku, attr. to Bodhidharma, translated by Thomas Cleary, pg 111)

 

When were these guys ever not entered into "The Kingdom", "the way", I wonder?   And yet they describe entering.

 

And for an opposing point of view, here's Avalokitesvara:

The Heart Suttra:

 

 Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva was moving in the deep course of wisdom which

has gone beyond. He looked down from on high and saw but five skandhas*

which, in their own being, were empty. Here, O Sariputra, Form is

Emptiness, Emptiness is Form; Form does not differ from Emptiness,

Emptiness does not differ from Form; whatever is Empty, that is Form,

whatever is Form that is Empty. The same is true of feelings, perceptions,

impulses and consciousness. O Sariputra all dharmas are marked with

Emptiness, they have no beginning and no end, they are neither imperfect nor

perfect, neither deficient nor complete. Therefore O Sariputra, in emptiness

there is no form, no feeling, no perception, no name, no concepts, no

knowledge. No eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no

forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touchables or object of the mind, no sight

organ, no hearing organ and so forth to no mind consciousness element; no

ignorance or extinction of ignorance, no decay and death, no extinction of

decay and death. There is no suffering, no origination, no stopping, no path,

no cognition, no attainment, nor anything to attain. There is nothing to

accomplish and so Bodhisattvas can rely on the Perfection of Wisdom

without trouble. Being without trouble they are not afraid, having overcome

anything upsetting they attain Nirvana.

 

All Buddhas who appear in the three periods, fully Awake to the utmost

right and perfect enlightenment because they have relied on the Perfection

 of Wisdom.  Therefore, one should know the Perfection of Wisdom is the great mantra, is the unequaled mantra, the destroyer of  suffering.

 

Gate, Gate, Paragate, Para Sam gate

Bodhi Svaha 

 

English:

Gone, Gone, Gone beyond Gone utterly beyond

Oh what an Awakening

 

(from here)

 

 

Ah, nothing to attain, nothing to accomplish (rubs chin).  Like the sound of that.

 

The Perfection of Wisdom.  The true nature.  

 

“Whatever… is material shape, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, (a person), thinking of all this material shape as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling… perception… the habitual tendencies… whatever is consciousness, past, future, or present… (that person), thinking of all this consciousness as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. (For one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body.”

(MN III 18-19, Pali Text Society III pg 68)

"Perfect wisdom". 

 

Do we sit down to let the day begin?  I do!

 

 

 

 

 

I would not say your posts are opposing view points but more they are talking about different aspects or points along the path.

 

The GOT post is more talking about the realization of the light, of universal mind. We are not just males and females, beyond the local mind we are both.

 

Which is also what this post is about.

 

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

 

In Buddhism I believe the concept of Yab Yum is much along these lines.

 

Maybe this one is more fitting.

 

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

 

Think of motion and rest as form and void. Think of the place where the light came into being as emptiness.

 

Not so different then is it?

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by Jonesboy

[Jonesboy]

14 hours ago, steve said:

Mind is forever in the realm of mind. 

It is not the Nature and will never truly know the Nature.
When it drops away, the clarity aspect of the Nature knows itself - that is Rigpa.

Mind is, however, a dynamic display of the energy, the tsal.

 

 

Thank you Steve for you very kind response.

 

I do have a question and like you I rarely share what I experience. So I have a question for you and this may be a little long.. Only to help with understanding.

 

So Rigpa is described by Norbu in is book Dzogchen: The Practice of Contemplation as this.

 

Spoiler

Particularly evident in this state is pure presence,

called rigpa, non-dual awareness.

 

Discernible within it, are three distinct fundamental

elements ( ne-gyu- rig):

 

1) nepa, the calm state, like a still sheet of water;

2) gyuwa, the movement of thoughts, like a wave;

3) rigpa, the recognition of the presence of this wave.

 

These three elements, however, are all present

simultaneously in the same condition. Only by being

in the state of Shine can you ascertain this concretely.

 

In this state there is nothing to seek and nothing to

relinquish.

.........

Then it seems that there are two states.

1. One state, in which the slightest amount of intention is
still present.

This is the state in which even though thoughts arise there
is always awareness (trenshe14); the latter is not a thought
but simply presence of mind. (At times it is possible to
confuse presence of mind and thoughts- to us awareness
may seem a thought- and at times instead to mistake a
thought that has arisen for awareness.) In this case the
only important thing is to see whether or not there is
judgment, whether or nor one is pursuing the thought. If
thoughts are 'pursued' and created, even only in a light
manner, this means there is judgment.

If, instead, while observing my state I notice thoughts,
such as for example: "Here, now I am in the calm state" or
"Here, now a thoughts is arising", there is a way in which I
can be present 'in' the thought itself without engaging the
mechanisms of judgment. If I had to say or explain what
is happening in that moment, on the one hand it is utterly
impossible for me to find the words, but on the other hand
I retain a precise memory of it.

This presence of awareness is very important, it must not
be lacking, otherwise the practice of Shine ends up sinking
into a sleepy state.

2. A natural state of total spontaneity.

This is what is called rigpa, the recognition of pure
presence. Presence can be recognized above all in the
condition where there are thoughts, that is, in the
condition of 'movement'.

When during practice there are more thoughts (that is,
'more fish are leaping') there is also the opportunity to
recognize presence as the manifestation of wisdom, and, at
the same time, together with the movement of thoughts one
can also recognize the presence of the state of calm, nepa.
You must understand that fundamentally all three states
are at the same level: the state of calm, nepa, is movement,
the state of movement itself, gyuwa, is calm, and rigpa is
pure recognition of your own state, that is present in both.

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43943-rigpa/

 

So here is the thing for me.

 

This description talks about this movement or flows as I call them and that resting in them is Rigpa. Now I agree that when one  does so it is a very nice clarity. Thoughts, emotions all that stuff just washes away into a beautiful clarity where one is untouched so to speak. Just like he describes.

 

Now my problem is if you are feeling those flows and resting in them, you are not those flows.

 

The next stage is to become those flows and when you do they go away, there is no longer any resting in that movement. A lot happens at this stage.

 

So if Rigpa is the resting in the movement, in that clarity. What is it called when you have become that movement that flow?

 

Is Norbu wrong in what he is describing as Rigpa or is there another name for the stage I am describing that I am not aware of? What is beyond Rigpa as described above?

 

Please also understand that no, it is not that I have dropped below or that it is a lack of understanding on what is being described by Norbu.

 

Any thoughts or insights would be appreciated.

 

Thank you.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Jonesboy

[3bob]

Why won't you let it be Jonesboy?   If you or any of us really wants to know for themselves what a school of Buddhism (or any other school or way) is up to in meanings then we will have give our life to that school and follow it all the way, instead of picking around as a correlation speculator which is interesting up to a point, but only to a point. 

[Jonesboy]

25 minutes ago, 3bob said:

Why won't you let it be Jonesboy?   If you or any of us really wants to know for themselves what a school of Buddhism (or any other school or way) is up to in meanings then we will have give our life to that school and follow it all the way, instead of picking around as a correlation speculator which is interesting up to a point, but only to a point. 

 

Because I don't have a problem sharing or asking questions. I really don't see anything wrong with learning what other traditions think. Some do and if you do. Well, you probably don't ever want to read any of my posts. Yet, I believe such learning is what a Forum is about.

 

Also, you may have noticed that beyond being a speculator, I have offered to be a demonstrator or to facilitate such a demonstration if I rub people the wrong way

 

Even with your everything is negative, scary or even god forbid trying to relate to some teachings is now a negative.. I still value and like your input 3bob.

[3bob]

note: I said "interesting" (and I'll add informative of common ground) up to a point, thus any form of forcing correlation beyond that point (a point which is not the same for everyone but is still there) becomes intrusive at best and possibly much worse which is why True gurus and their students don't do it.  As for being driven to be a demonstrator of powers of  some kind - if that is what you mean? -  then that is often and mostly a  fools game of false teachers. 

Edited January 30, 2018 by 3bob

[Jonesboy]

51 minutes ago, 3bob said:

note: I said "interesting" (and I'll add informative of common ground) up to a point, thus any form of forcing correlation beyond that point (a point which is not the same for everyone but is still there) becomes intrusive at best and possibly much worse which is why True gurus and their students don't do it.  As for being driven to be a demonstrator of powers of  some kind - if that is what you mean? -  then that is often and mostly a  fools game of false teachers. 

 

How am I forcing understanding?

 

I am trying to learn. How is me sharing what I have experienced and asking a Buddhist his thoughts intrusive?

 

Also, what you call a true guru does all the time in Buddhism and many traditions talk one on one with their students to go over progress and to help avoid traps.

 

Also, any power as you call it is a result of realization. Wishing wanting power is all ego. It is that wanting that will forever keep it away.

 

What is this thread about? Merging or connecting to divine beings and guru yoga. Many have said it is not possible including you.

 

So do we sit here and debate with you saying how talking about such things is bad or do you cut to the chase and see here.. let me help you experience such a thing?  We talk about silence, we have talked about mindstreams within this thread. I have said that one can touch another's mind stream and help them experience silence in daily life. That one through the sharing of oneness can help progress another along the path.

 

Now to you maybe all of those things are wrong, bad and not guruish. To me they are perfect examples of what a True Guru is to me. Helping someone through sharing of presence to progress along the path.. A rare guru.

 

I have also said that I won't be the one doing the demo. If it is a fake thing only one person experiences it and can do it. If he can help others come to the same realizations and then those people help others doing the same things. That is real. Would you like a lineup of people offering to work with others and you choose who? It can be done if that is your wish and they can each do everything I have mentioned within this thread.

 

I offer that to show that it isn't about me, my ego and trying to show off some powers. I don't even have to be there if that would help anyone

 

Of course if you believe such sharing is bad or dangerous as I am sure you do. Then nothing I say will change your mind. My daily experience for years shows otherwise.

 

Maybe we just agree to disagree.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Jonesboy

[s1va]

2 hours ago, 3bob said:

Why won't you let it be Jonesboy?   If you or any of us really wants to know for themselves what a school of Buddhism (or any other school or way) is up to in meanings then we will have give our life to that school and follow it all the way, instead of picking around as a correlation speculator which is interesting up to a point, but only to a point. 

 

What is interesting and not interesting is relative to each person.  I found the question Jonesboy asked to be genuine and interesting.  Not sure about 'giving the life to the school and follow it all the way' to see what it's upto!  Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  Will make a majority of discussions on this forum moot.

 

 

58 minutes ago, 3bob said:

note: I said "interesting" (and I'll add informative of common ground) up to a point, thus any form of forcing correlation beyond that point (a point which is not the same for everyone but is still there) becomes intrusive at best and possibly much worse which is why True gurus and their students don't do it.  As for being driven to be a demonstrator of powers of  some kind - if that is what you mean? -  then that is often and mostly a  fools game of false teachers. 

 

If something upsets me so bad, normally I conclude that I am the one that needs to let go and move on from there

[3bob]

Jonesboy,  It is a fools game for anyone to say they are "sure" that someone will or will not when it comes to this or that....

 

Btw, are you saying "any power" is benign and only possible per (spiritual) realization?  If so I will say that is are dead wrong, thus you will not have to speculate about my position on that one.

Edited January 30, 2018 by 3bob

[Mark Foote]

On 1/30/2018 at 10:57 AM, Jonesboy said:

 

 

What is this thread about? Merging or connecting to divine beings and guru yoga.

 

 

Wouldn't that be, "merging or connecting to divine beings and guru yoga" in a Buddhist context?

 

Did you know Gautama believed in fairies?  I can't quote the chapter and verse, but there's a place in the sermon volumes where he describes them.  He also believed in "stroking the sun and moon", as one of the six miracles.

 

I take refuge in his advice to only accept what I can experience for myself, from his teaching.

 

Maybe this is off-topic, but here is what Gautama described as his own way of living, before and after enlightenment ("and a pleasant way of living, at that"):

 

 

"Mindful [one] breathes in. Mindful [one] breathes out.

 

Whether [one] is breathing in a long (breath), breathing out a long (breath), breathing in a short (breath), breathing out a short (breath), one comprehends 'I am breathing in a long (breath), I am breathing out a long (breath), I am breathing in a short (breath), I am breathing out a short (breath).'

 

Thus [one] trains [oneself] thinking, 'I will breathe in experiencing the whole body; I will breathe out experiencing the whole body.'

 

[One] trains [oneself], thinking ' I will breathe in tranquillizing the activity of body; I will breathe out tranquillizing the activity of body.'

 

[One] trains [oneself], thinking: 'I will breathe in... breathe out experiencing zest... experiencing ease... experiencing the activity of thought... tranquillising the activity of thought.'

 

[One] trains [oneself], thinking: 'I will breathe in... breathe out experiencing thought... rejoicing in thought... concentrating thought... freeing thought.'

 

[One] trains [oneself], thinking: 'I will breathe in... breathe out beholding impermanence... beholding detachment... beholding stopping (of "voluntary control... concealed from the consciousness by habit") ... beholding casting away (of "latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer' in regard to this consciousness-informed body")'."

 

(MN III 82-83, Pali Text Society III pg 124; parentheticals added: "voluntary control... concealed from the consciousness by habit" borrowed from Feldenkrais's "Awareness and Movement", "latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer' in regard to this consciousness-informed body" from MN III 18-19, Pali Text Society III pg 68; "zest" and "ease" from SN V 310-312, Pali Text Society V pg 275-276, in place of "rapture" and "joy")

 

I believe the initial context of this instruction was the suicide of scores of monks, after Gautama advised them to meditate on the "unlovely" (aspects of the body)(Sanyutta Nikaya V, in the chapter titled "The Concentration on In-Breathing and Out-Breathing).

 

Gautama said the first four elements were mindfulness of the body, the second four mindfulness of feelings, the third four mindfulness of mind, and the last four mindfulness of the state of mind. 

 

Thought applied and sustained is present in the first of the material meditatve states, but not present in the second, so I have to conclude that although Gautama returned to "that first aspect of concentration" after he lectured (self-surrender as the object of thought & one-pointedness of mind?), his way of living mostly occurred in the first of the material states.

 

But what a relief!  "Rejoicing in thought... concentrating thought... freeing thought"--this was his natural course. 

 

That tranquilizing the body can be followed naturally by zest and ease, try it (I think you'll like it)--you have to allow equalibrioception to incorporate proprioceptive awareness and exercise relaxation (& the sense of gravity) to experience it.

 

Cessation of voluntary activity in in-breathing, in out-breathing--this is the characteristic of the fourth of the material meditative states, described as:

 

"... (a person), putting away ease... enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one's) body with purity by the pureness of (one's) mind, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one's) mind. ... just as (one) might sit with (one's) head swathed in a clean cloth so that not a portion of it was not in contact with that clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (one's) body with purity..."

 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19)

 

Elsewhere it's the entire body that is swathed in the clean cloth.

 

And yet, Gautama's way of living was the rhythm of the sixteen, which he described as a pleasant way of living to his monks.  No more talk of enlighenment, or of the four truths; just a rhythm that he was able to make a way of living, especially in the rainy season.

 

Gautama's implied advice is that the material and non-material states come naturally when they are appropriate and enlightenment does not need to be the focus.  Tranquillizing the activity of the body and the activity of thought, these to me seem the key moments, when proprioception and equalibrioception/graviception enter in--not to mention freeing thought.

 

Who can keep sixteen balls in the air, inhaling and exhaling?  No attainment but non-attainment.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Mark Foote

[3bob]

meaning plum cookoo?

[Jonesboy]

14 hours ago, 3bob said:

Jonesboy,  It is a fools game for anyone to say they are "sure" that someone will or will not when it comes to this or that....

 

Btw, are you saying "any power" is benign and only possible per (spiritual) realization?  If so I will say that is are dead wrong, thus you will not have to speculate about my position on that one.

 

They are there helping people everyday 7 days a week and have been for a long time. So yeah, I am pretty sure

 

I did not say it was all benign. There are bad gurus, people who us their abilities to harm and manipulate others no doubt.

[Jonesboy]

10 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Wouldn't that be, "merging or connecting to divine beings and guru yoga" in a Buddhist context?

 

Did you Gautama know believed in fairies?  I can't quote the chapter and verse, but there's a place in the sermon volumes where he describes them.  He also believed in "stroking the sun and moon", as one of the six miracles.

 

 

 

No, I would not say just from a Buddhist context. It started off with some talk of Yidam practices and since I am interested in Dzogchen thought it has merged to talks on Rigpa. But you may have noticed their has also been some KS and GOT quotes thrown around as well.

 

Many Buddhist sutras talk about Gods, Dragons, Dakinis. All sorts of stuff

 

Thank you for your information on meditation but that is not at all what I was talking about. I'm not talking about meditation. I am talking about when meditation and life are one and the same. If you only experience this stuff in meditation you haven't truly realized it. You are just visiting for a little bit.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Jonesboy

[Jonesboy]

9 hours ago, 3bob said:

meaning plum cookoo?

 

Only for coco puffs!

[3bob]

11 hours ago, 3bob said:

meaning plum cookoo?

 

"Who can keep sixteen balls in the air, inhaling and exhaling?" 

 

meaning a sense of humor? 

 

[doc benway]

On 1/30/2018 at 9:58 AM, Jonesboy said:

 

Thank you Steve for you very kind response.

 

I do have a question and like you I rarely share what I experience. So I have a question for you and this may be a little long.. Only to help with understanding.

 

So Rigpa is described by Norbu in is book Dzogchen: The Practice of Contemplation as this.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Particularly evident in this state is pure presence,

called rigpa, non-dual awareness.

 

Discernible within it, are three distinct fundamental

elements ( ne-gyu- rig):

 

1) nepa, the calm state, like a still sheet of water;

2) gyuwa, the movement of thoughts, like a wave;

3) rigpa, the recognition of the presence of this wave.

 

These three elements, however, are all present

simultaneously in the same condition. Only by being

in the state of Shine can you ascertain this concretely.

 

In this state there is nothing to seek and nothing to

relinquish.

.........

Then it seems that there are two states.

1. One state, in which the slightest amount of intention is
still present.

This is the state in which even though thoughts arise there
is always awareness (trenshe14); the latter is not a thought
but simply presence of mind. (At times it is possible to
confuse presence of mind and thoughts- to us awareness
may seem a thought- and at times instead to mistake a
thought that has arisen for awareness.) In this case the
only important thing is to see whether or not there is
judgment, whether or nor one is pursuing the thought. If
thoughts are 'pursued' and created, even only in a light
manner, this means there is judgment.

If, instead, while observing my state I notice thoughts,
such as for example: "Here, now I am in the calm state" or
"Here, now a thoughts is arising", there is a way in which I
can be present 'in' the thought itself without engaging the
mechanisms of judgment. If I had to say or explain what
is happening in that moment, on the one hand it is utterly
impossible for me to find the words, but on the other hand
I retain a precise memory of it.

This presence of awareness is very important, it must not
be lacking, otherwise the practice of Shine ends up sinking
into a sleepy state.

2. A natural state of total spontaneity.

This is what is called rigpa, the recognition of pure
presence. Presence can be recognized above all in the
condition where there are thoughts, that is, in the
condition of 'movement'.

When during practice there are more thoughts (that is,
'more fish are leaping') there is also the opportunity to
recognize presence as the manifestation of wisdom, and, at
the same time, together with the movement of thoughts one
can also recognize the presence of the state of calm, nepa.
You must understand that fundamentally all three states
are at the same level: the state of calm, nepa, is movement,
the state of movement itself, gyuwa, is calm, and rigpa is
pure recognition of your own state, that is present in both.

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43943-rigpa/

 

So here is the thing for me.

 

This description talks about this movement or flows as I call them and that resting in them is Rigpa. Now I agree that when one  does so it is a very nice clarity. Thoughts, emotions all that stuff just washes away into a beautiful clarity where one is untouched so to speak. Just like he describes.

From my perspective rigpa is not "resting in movement , in that clarity."

Rigpa is self knowing, the opposite of ma rigpa - ignorance.

What is the self that is known (realized)? That is the basis.

Rigpa may be present (or absent) at rest, in movement, and in arising or manifestation.

There are base and path rigpa, the primordial self-knowing of the basis and the personal experience of self-knowing of the practitioner. One is a manifestation of the other but they are not equivalent. Using phrases like 'resting in rigpa' tends to lead some to reify it as a state of consciousness, something to do or be. I think that is misleading.

 

On 1/30/2018 at 9:58 AM, Jonesboy said:

 

Now my problem is if you are feeling those flows and resting in them, you are not those flows.

 

The next stage is to become those flows and when you do they go away, there is no longer any resting in that movement. A lot happens at this stage.

 

So if Rigpa is the resting in the movement, in that clarity. What is it called when you have become that movement that flow?

You speak of resting in movement as rigpa and becoming that movement as something else.

I look at it a bit differently.

Resting in the movement means the one who is resting is inactive, unidentified with, and eventually dissolves.

The observer and observed are not differentiated, perhaps that is what you mean by "becoming"?

This is the beginning of self-recognition - rigpa.

Rinpoche's discussion above appears to be focusing on zhiné (Shine).

Many of the insights he describes are developed as a result of zhiné practice.

 

On 1/30/2018 at 9:58 AM, Jonesboy said:

 

Is Norbu wrong in what he is describing as Rigpa or is there another name for the stage I am describing that I am not aware of?

I personally don't doubt Rinpoche's knowledge or understanding of rigpa but you are welcome to, of course. 

I think he is a reliable resource based on his training and experience although I've never studied with him.

I question my own understanding first, knowing that my understanding is imperfect, and work patiently towards a deeper realization. 

 

On 1/30/2018 at 9:58 AM, Jonesboy said:

What is beyond Rigpa as described above?

There is nothing beyond rigpa in these teachings, it is a characteristic of the basis.

The fundamental premise of dzogchen is that there is no becoming, we already are from the beginning.

We simply need to recognize and realize, settle into what we already are. 

It is done without any effort whatsoever.

Any effort, any becoming, takes us further away.

 

On 1/30/2018 at 9:58 AM, Jonesboy said:

 

Please also understand that no, it is not that I have dropped below or that it is a lack of understanding on what is being described by Norbu.

While confidence can be a virtue, it can also be an impediment. I'd suggest you be open to the possibility that your understanding is imperfect. I freely admit that I don't understand the teachings to the degree I would like. 

Dzogchen teachings seem very accessible because they are so simple and yet there is a precision and subtlety that is very elusive and dependent on direct transmission from a master and dedicated practice. 

 

On 1/30/2018 at 9:58 AM, Jonesboy said:

Any thoughts or insights would be appreciated.

 

Thank you.

There is a saying that we need to HEAR the teachings (implying direct transmission which I think is absolutely critical), then we need to reflect deeply on what we've heard, then we need to actualize those teachings in our lives.

[Jonesboy]

10 hours ago, steve said:

From my perspective rigpa is not "resting in movement , in that clarity."

Rigpa is self knowing, the opposite of ma rigpa - ignorance.

What is the self that is known (realized)? That is the basis.

Rigpa may be present (or absent) at rest, in movement, and in arising or manifestation.

There are base and path rigpa, the primordial self-knowing of the basis and the personal experience of self-knowing of the practitioner. One is a manifestation of the other but they are not equivalent. Using phrases like 'resting in rigpa' tends to lead some to reify it as a state of consciousness, something to do or be. I think that is misleading.

 

You speak of resting in movement as rigpa and becoming that movement as something else.

I look at it a bit differently.

Resting in the movement means the one who is resting is inactive, unidentified with, and eventually dissolves.

The observer and observed are not differentiated, perhaps that is what you mean by "becoming"?

This is the beginning of self-recognition - rigpa.

Rinpoche's discussion above appears to be focusing on zhiné (Shine).

Many of the insights he describes are developed as a result of zhiné practice.

 

 

 

Thank you Steve,

 

Not resting in Rigpa. As Norbu describes being in the movement. I call it resting in the flows and when you do so you realize a deep clarity which is Rigpa. The same thing as described by Norbu.

 

According to him you have to experience that movement, thoughts as movements of energy be they silent or not. Being in that movement is different than being that movement. There is still something for you to "jump into."

 

Just the fact that you have an aspect of yourself that you feel, that you "jump into" means there is more. The next step on the path of clarity is being that movement.

 

To give you an idea, I will share some of my experience of the observer as you mentioned.

 

The first thing most people experience when they have realized silence to one degree or another in daily life is what we term The Witness. It is like we have a freedom from judgments, from our thoughts, we can observe them and not be so attached to them.

 

With increased depth we begin to feel that movement of thoughts silent or not as flows of energy within us. For me this was at my 3rd eye and the movement or flows felt like the twirling wind of a fan flowing through me. Just like Norbu describes one can rest or jump in that movement and it is a freeing of attachments, they liberate you could say and you are in a state of very blissful clarity.

 

Notice how so far each is like a flow of energy we are noticing that we can become free of and yet with increased depth we are able to reside back in it or get caught up back in it.

 

The Witness we have realized silence and are able to notice our thoughts, with increased depth we notice those thoughts are flows of energy. Another deeper step.

 

The person Tom, me and all that makes up this person called Tom is nothing more than flows of energy that we are attached to. It is nothing more than another bigger thought that we are caught up in. To realize this is not to step beyond such flows and rest in another movement or to jump into something else. Would that not be dualistic?

 

Our Primordial State is not just clarity, it is a realization of, becoming all those flows that we were caught up in. To me it is why Jeff keeps posting about the TTC, becoming the valley, the source of the transmission, the source of those flows... becoming those flows. You are that.

 

Maybe I am just confused. Maybe like you said Rigpa is touching that clarity. Nobody has said that such clarity cannot grow or become deeper. Because it does.

 

Thank you Steve.

 

P.S. I get that I may not fully understand the teachings or the interpretation of said teachings. That is why I am asking questions.

 

Also, wouldn't truly realizing at thing, kinda be like becoming as I have described above? The more we settle as you say.. the more we realize, let go of stuff and become more of that which we truly are.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Jonesboy

[s1va]

Fascinating dialogue on Rigpa with insight.  Thanks to  Jonesboy  & Steve.

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Thank you Steve,

 

Not resting in Rigpa. As Norbu describes being in the movement. I call it resting in the flows and when you do so you realize a deep clarity which is Rigpa. The same thing as described by Norbu.

 

According to him you have to experience that movement, thoughts as movements of energy be they silent or not. Being in that movement is different than being that movement. There is still something for you to "jump into."

Being in the movement is dualistic, being the movement is nondual.

Rigpa is also referred to as nondual awareness by Rinpoche above, therefore it is not a characteristic of dual states such as "being in that movement."

 

4 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Just the fact that you have an aspect of yourself that you feel, that you "jump into" means there is more. The next step on the path of clarity is being that movement.

 

To give you an idea, I will share some of my experience of the observer as you mentioned.

 

The first thing most people experience when they have realized silence to one degree or another in daily life is what we term The Witness. It is like we have a freedom from judgments, from our thoughts, we can observe them and not be so attached to them.

 

With increased depth we begin to feel that movement of thoughts silent or not as flows of energy within us. For me this was at my 3rd eye and the movement or flows felt like the twirling wind of a fan flowing through me. Just like Norbu describes one can rest or jump in that movement and it is a freeing of attachments, they liberate you could say and you are in a state of very blissful clarity.

 

Notice how so far each is like a flow of energy we are noticing that we can become free of and yet with increased depth we are able to reside back in it or get caught up back in it.

Yes, everything is energy.

In it's native state, undifferentiated.

It is in part our unique sensory apparatus and conditioning that elicits form from formless.

Thodgal practice is one way to see this.

 

4 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

The Witness we have realized silence and are able to notice our thoughts, with increased depth we notice those thoughts are flows of energy. Another deeper step.

 

The person Tom, me and all that makes up this person called Tom is nothing more than flows of energy that we are attached to. It is nothing more than another bigger thought that we are caught up in. To realize this is not to step beyond such flows and rest in another movement or to jump into something else. Would that not be dualistic?

 

Our Primordial State is not just clarity, it is a realization of, becoming all those flows that we were caught up in. To me it is why Jeff keeps posting about the TTC, becoming the valley, the source of the transmission, the source of those flows... becoming those flows. You are that.

This is one reason why I discourage myself and others from focusing too much on rigpa as that is simply one characteristic of our primordial state. In the dzogchen teachings, that state is described as having three characteristics - space, awareness, and warmth (or emptiness, clarity, and bliss). The first characteristic is the empty and boundless aspect, the second is rigpa, and the third is the tsal or dynamism - the flows you refer to. When you are that, it is what is referred to as nondual in the dzogchen teachings. This is one thing the zhine practice teaches as introduction and stabilization of the nature of mind.

 

4 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Maybe I am just confused. Maybe like you said Rigpa is touching that clarity. Nobody has said that such clarity cannot grow or become deeper. Because it does.

Again, I think you are reifying rigpa.

It is simply a description of the self aware aspect of the natural state.

At least that is what the dzogchen teachings seem to be saying to me. 

It is easy to try to grasp it.

Better to let go, at least for me.

 

4 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Thank you Steve.

 

P.S. I get that I may not fully understand the teachings or the interpretation of said teachings. That is why I am asking questions.

 

Also, wouldn't truly realizing at thing, kinda be like becoming as I have described above? The more we settle as you say.. the more we realize, let go of stuff and become more of that which we truly are.

Yes, when referring to realizing emptiness, realizing the self aware nature of the natural state, realizing the nondual nature of "who we are" and the flow of the internal and external winds, we rest more and more deeply into openness, we distinguish the mind from its nature. We rest into the nature by releasing or dis-identifying with mind. I'm a little resistant to getting into this sort of analytical discussion as it engages and turns on the mind and tends to take me further from the nature. 

 

Thank you for sharing, I appreciate your descriptions of your experience and interpretations. 

I think it can be helpful to compare notes to some degree as long as we don't get too focused on "understanding."

 

[Jonesboy]

1 hour ago, steve said:

Being in the movement is dualistic, being the movement is nondual.

Rigpa is also referred to as nondual awareness by Rinpoche above, therefore it is not a characteristic of dual states such as "being in that movement."

 

Yes, everything is energy.

In it's native state, undifferentiated.

It is in part our unique sensory apparatus and conditioning that elicits form from formless.

Thodgal practice is one way to see this.

 

This is one reason why I discourage myself and others from focusing too much on rigpa as that is simply one characteristic of our primordial state. In the dzogchen teachings, that state is described as having three characteristics - space, awareness, and warmth (or emptiness, clarity, and bliss). The first characteristic is the empty and boundless aspect, the second is rigpa, and the third is the tsal or dynamism - the flows you refer to. When you are that, it is what is referred to as nondual in the dzogchen teachings. This is one thing the zhine practice teaches as introduction and stabilization of the nature of mind.

 

Again, I think you are reifying rigpa.

It is simply a description of the self aware aspect of the natural state.

At least that is what the dzogchen teachings seem to be saying to me. 

It is easy to try to grasp it.

Better to let go, at least for me.

 

Yes, when referring to realizing emptiness, realizing the self aware nature of the natural state, realizing the nondual nature of "who we are" and the flow of the internal and external winds, we rest more and more deeply into openness, we distinguish the mind from its nature. We rest into the nature by releasing or dis-identifying with mind. I'm a little resistant to getting into this sort of analytical discussion as it engages and turns on the mind and tends to take me further from the nature. 

 

Thank you for sharing, I appreciate your descriptions of your experience and interpretations. 

I think it can be helpful to compare notes to some degree as long as we don't get too focused on "understanding."

 

 

Steve,

 

I have other finer points I could make but those type of questions/comments are exactly what you are saying you don't want to engage in.

 

Thank you for a very fun discussion.

 

All the best,

 

Tom

[Mark Foote]

For me, most of the koans concern a coordination that involves all the senses, and they are about specific aspects of that coordination.  Many are very physical, and hard to relate to outside of a physical practice.

 

That doesn't mean that they aren't everything, in a life well-lived.

 

I can relate to what Steve is saying, and I'd like to thank you, Steve, for your careful and considerate responses.  Tom, I appreciate your willingness to keep listening, even as you have some very firm ideas about what these things mean with regard to your own experience. 

 

May I suggest that we will cut through sooner if we speak in first person whenever possible, so "I" as opposed to "you".

 

Gautama described the first cessation as the cessation of speech, and also as the cessation of dis-ease.  The second, he said was the cessation of unhappiness.  Flow, though, I would guess has to do with the third and fourth cessations, so the cessation of ease apart from equanimity (with respect to the multiplicity of the senses) and the cessation of happiness (apart from same). 

 

That's pretty dry. 

 

Steve said:  "We simply need to recognize and realize, settle into what we already are.  It is done without any effort whatsoever."

 

Realizing cessation is different from understanding cessation.  I think Steve points this out when he says:

"It is easy to try to grasp it.

Better to let go, at least for me."

 

As to no effort whatsoever, yes, but...  (that's the way Shunryu Suzuki characterized Soto Zen--"yes, but..."--as opposed to Rinzai, "no!").

 

There is a stretch involved in the movement of breath in any posture or carriage, and there is spontaneity in the movement of breath in any posture or carriage.  Stretch can bring ease, and spontaneity can bring happiness.  I believe this is why Gautama emphasized relaxing the activity of the body, and calming the activity of thought, in his way of living. 

 

As Yuanwu's teacher said, it is possible to walk along hand in hand (with him).  If I'm open to involuntary activity and the presence of mind necessary to a specific movement of breath, merging like this (with a long-dead guru) can occur.  That would be my experience.