Merging and guru yoga

[Mark Foote]

On 1/31/2018 at 8:31 AM, 3bob said:

 

"Who can keep sixteen balls in the air, inhaling and exhaling?" 

 

meaning a sense of humor? 

 

 

It's pretty funny to watch myself stumble over my own two feet--last time I did that, I rolled out of it, but I received a bone bruise from the pressure cooker (with the potluck pasta) in the process. 

 

Maybe it's only three balls at a time, in the air.  That's all I can do, anyway.

[3bob]

"do not do or try this at home"

 

[silent thunder]

I wonder at how he felt the first time he used actual chainsaws... I mean... wow.

[Jonesboy]

On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 0:22 AM, Mark Foote said:

For me, most of the koans concern a coordination that involves all the senses, and they are about specific aspects of that coordination.  Many are very physical, and hard to relate to outside of a physical practice.

 

That doesn't mean that they aren't everything, in a life well-lived.

 

I can relate to what Steve is saying, and I'd like to thank you, Steve, for your careful and considerate responses.  Tom, I appreciate your willingness to keep listening, even as you have some very firm ideas about what these things mean with regard to your own experience. 

 

May I suggest that we will cut through sooner if we speak in first person whenever possible, so "I" as opposed to "you".

 

Gautama described the first cessation as the cessation of speech, and also as the cessation of dis-ease.  The second, he said was the cessation of unhappiness.  Flow, though, I would guess has to do with the third and fourth cessations, so the cessation of ease apart from equanimity (with respect to the multiplicity of the senses) and the cessation of happiness (apart from same). 

 

That's pretty dry. 

 

Steve said:  "We simply need to recognize and realize, settle into what we already are.  It is done without any effort whatsoever."

 

Realizing cessation is different from understanding cessation.  I think Steve points this out when he says:

"It is easy to try to grasp it.

Better to let go, at least for me."

 

As to no effort whatsoever, yes, but...  (that's the way Shunryu Suzuki characterized Soto Zen--"yes, but..."--as opposed to Rinzai, "no!").

 

There is a stretch involved in the movement of breath in any posture or carriage, and there is spontaneity in the movement of breath in any posture or carriage.  Stretch can bring ease, and spontaneity can bring happiness.  I believe this is why Gautama emphasized relaxing the activity of the body, and calming the activity of thought, in his way of living. 

 

As Yuanwu's teacher said, it is possible to walk along hand in hand (with him).  If I'm open to involuntary activity and the presence of mind necessary to a specific movement of breath, merging like this (with a long-dead guru) can occur.  That would be my experience.  

 

 

Hi Mark,

 

I still don't think you understand or maybe you are talking apples and I am talking oranges.

 

First let me share what those flows are to me and how I first experienced them.

 

I experienced those flows that I have been talking about when I first went light. It was one of the things that I experienced when going light. At first I use to talk about those flows like a bright light. At first you are blinded and all you can see is this bright light. With time I was able to pick out the individual little lights you could say that first appeared as one bright one.

 

Now what are those little lights I am talking about?

 

So at first I felt this movement 24/7 flowing through my head like we have discussed before. But with increased depth I noticed I could think of a person and feel them in those flows. I felt there flow, their clarity. Not only could I feel them but with intent I could do all the things I have talked about in this guru thread with others.

 

When I have talked about becoming those flows it isn't something just within the flows. Like you just reside or settle in those flows or in the center of them and then some feeling like you are them with some clarity and bliss.

 

Before it was more like I felt energy from others come to me. Even with the flows and feeling them is was more like they were outside of me coming in.

 

When I became those flows, all energy now comes from within me. I feel nothing from outside of me. There is no energy that comes from anyone that is not felt from within me now. Where, before I would look outside and maybe pull someone in, now it is all within me. I think of a person and feel them as an aspect of me. There are no flows anymore. It can feel more like I am a sun, radiating the energy.

 

As that radiating energy.. what is it? It is nothing more that the power of silence which is an emptiness but is also everything. Those flows were also everything but it was a residing, becoming and experiencing the non dual/emptiness of it all.

 

So when I merge, it is much more than a merging of breath like you have described.

 

All the best,

 

Tom

[Mark Foote]

13 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

When I became those flows, all energy now comes from within me. I feel nothing from outside of me. There is no energy that comes from anyone that is not felt from within me now. Where, before I would look outside and maybe pull someone in, now it is all within me. I think of a person and feel them as an aspect of me. There are no flows anymore. It can feel more like I am a sun, radiating the energy.

 

 

A dark sun, maybe?--I've felt something like that sometimes, dancing with a partner.

[Jonesboy]

7 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

A dark sun, maybe?--I've felt something like that sometimes, dancing with a partner.

 

No.

[3bob]

yea Jonesboy, one might ask why you are hell bent on a continuing public display of and comparisons of certain personal experiences and opinions along with subtle or not so subtle dissections of others as in them not getting or not being equal to what sounds like a white-light ego trip...  as for me no thanks.

 

 

  

[Jonesboy]

7 minutes ago, 3bob said:

yea Jonesboy, one might ask why you are hell bent on a continuing public display of and comparisons of certain personal experiences and opinions along with subtle or not so subtle dissections of others as in them not getting or not being equal to what sounds like a white-light ego trip...  as for me no thanks.

 

 

  

 

3bob,

 

I didn't know it was bad for people to share their personal experiences on this forum. I see people doing it all the time as a matter of fact so I don't know why you are not asking everyone else that question as well.

 

Also, if you think what I am referring to is the same as a couple dancing... Well, then you don't understand what I am talking about either.

 

That is okay.

 

No reason to be upset about it.

 

Also, my post shows areas where I am very dependent on local mind. The need to feel such flows or feel people as an aspect of me. It would have been interesting to discuss such things but....

Edited February 7, 2018 by Jonesboy

[Jetsun]

On 13/01/2018 at 2:32 AM, Jonesboy said:

 

 

What does "going light" mean?

 

If others are inside you then you are also inside them, who owns the space?  A good line of discussion is how it is even possible to be inside another person as in doing things like remote connection, what is it that makes that possible. There has to be some kind of shared ground at a certain level otherwise such a thing would be a intrusion on somebodies boundaries. What is the shared ground, who does it belong to? 

[Jonesboy]

Just now, Jetsun said:

 

 

What does "going light" mean?

 

If others are inside you then you are also inside them, who owns the space?  A good line of discussion is how it is even possible to be inside another person as in doing things like remote connection, what is it that makes that possible. There has to be some kind of shared ground at a certain level otherwise such a thing would be a intrusion on somebodies boundaries. What is the shared ground, who does it belong to? 

 

The shared boundary is non-duality.

 

Light is when one has moved beyond the 7 charkas and they have unified one could say

 

Jeff has talked about it many times. A little snippet.

 

Sharing presence (or space) is not the same thing as someone sending energy to another person. It is not "me" sending energy to "you" (dualistic) with the classical healer like energy connection. It is more like a being one with, or like I said in an earlier post, knowing that there is no separation, so that there is none. This "being" rather than "seeing" (two different people) is what some people like have called light (or light level). This being is not just a localized thing, but as clarity grows encompasses all.

 

 

Also, I never do anything without permission.

[Jonesboy]

Notice this part of my previous post.

 

"knowing that there is no separation, so that there is none."

 

Needing to feel flows or someone as an aspect of me shows a lack of clarity.

 

In truth I shouldn't have to feel anyone, it is just a knowing and intent.

[C T]

8 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

Light is when one has moved beyond the 7 charkas and they have unified one could say

 

 

I know im breaking my word about not getting involved here, and I humbly apologise...

 

Its statements like the above that sounds a bit too far out, so much so it becomes rather ostentatious-sounding and implausible. This undermines some of the benefits of doubt that is usually reserved when i hear or read declarations of this nature. 

 

Maybe it just needs to be reworded, i dont know.. but i have never encountered any proposals of similar unification theories anywhere. I dont claim to be extremely well-versed but I have read quite a bit, met some really knowledgeable teachers, and been in numerous discussion groups with seasoned practitioners, but so far nothing ive encountered would suggest the possibility of moving beyond the 7 chakras, not because it cannot be done, but i think (no offence please) the premise for making this statement is inaccurate and not based on conventional understandings of chakras and their significance. 

 

(reset abstinence from posting)

[Jetsun]

10 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

The shared boundary is non-duality.

 

Light is when one has moved beyond the 7 charkas and they have unified one could say

 

Jeff has talked about it many times. A little snippet.

 

Sharing presence (or space) is not the same thing as someone sending energy to another person. It is not "me" sending energy to "you" (dualistic) with the classical healer like energy connection. It is more like a being one with, or like I said in an earlier post, knowing that there is no separation, so that there is none. This "being" rather than "seeing" (two different people) is what some people like have called light (or light level). This being is not just a localized thing, but as clarity grows encompasses all.

 

 

Also, I never do anything without permission.

 

Non-duality doesn't really explain anything though , it just means not two. Not that anyone can really explain this space very well but I am interested in people's takes on it. On one level we are individuals with boundaries and on another deeper level there is no such distinction, I own and am this deeper being as much as anyone else is. So it appears like a paradox. Working out the functions of this space is traversing the mystery.

 

Merging chakras makes no sense to me, it's like saying merging your internal organs. Chakras function as energetic entities regulating your energy system, I am not aware of any tradition or lineage where the object is to go beyond or merge chakras, that seems to be something unique to you and Jeff. So I still don't really understand what you mean by going light.

[Jonesboy]

3 minutes ago, C T said:

 

I know im breaking my word about not getting involved here, and I humbly apologise...

 

Its statements like the above that sounds a bit too far out, so much so it becomes rather ostentatious-sounding and implausible. This undermines some of the benefits of doubt that is usually reserved when i hear or read declarations of this nature. 

 

Maybe it just needs to be reworded, i dont know.. but i have never encountered any proposals of similar unification theories anywhere. I dont claim to be extremely well-versed but I have read quite a bit, met some really knowledgeable teachers, and been in numerous discussion groups with seasoned practitioners, but so far nothing ive encountered would suggest the possibility of moving beyond the 7 chakras, not because it cannot be done, but i think (no offence please) the premise for making this statement is inaccurate and not based on conventional understandings of chakras and their significance. 

 

(reset abstinence from posting)

 

Well,

 

All I can say is talk to people who have experienced it, work with them or observe them working with others.

 

I am also sure that the things we do you have never ever run across either.

[Jonesboy]

9 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

 

Non-duality doesn't really explain anything though , it just means not two. Not that anyone can really explain this space very well but I am interested in people's takes on it. On one level we are individuals with boundaries and on another deeper level there is no such distinction, I own and am this deeper being as much as anyone else is. So it appears like a paradox. Working out the functions of this space is traversing the mystery.

 

Merging chakras makes no sense to me, it's like saying merging your internal organs. Chakras function as energetic entities regulating your energy system, I am not aware of any tradition or lineage where the object is to go beyond or merge chakras, that seems to be something unique to you and Jeff. So I still don't really understand what you mean by going light.

 

Maybe forget charkas.

 

Think of it more going from a stage of seeing to being, from local mind to universal mind to one degree or another.

 

Also, it isn't just Jeff and I that has experienced this. Men, women from various traditions have worked with all of us to realize it.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Jonesboy

[s1va]

10 minutes ago, C T said:

 

I know im breaking my word about not getting involved here, and I humbly apologise...

 

Its statements like the above that sounds a bit too far out, so much so it becomes rather ostentatious-sounding and implausible. This undermines some of the benefits of doubt that is usually reserved when i hear or read declarations of this nature. 

 

Maybe it just needs to be reworded, i dont know.. but i have never encountered any proposals of similar unification theories anywhere. I dont claim to be extremely well-versed but I have read quite a bit, met some really knowledgeable teachers, and been in numerous discussion groups with seasoned practitioners, but so far nothing ive encountered would suggest the possibility of moving beyond the 7 chakras, not because it cannot be done, but i think (no offence please) the premise for making this statement is inaccurate and not based on conventional understandings of chakras and their significance. 

 

(reset abstinence from posting)

 

I agree that it sounds a bit too far out and implausible.  Yes, I have also not encountered any proposals that openly discuss such unification theories in any of the major texts that deal on the subject of chakras.  I would agree with almost everything you have stated, and understand why it sounds controversial.

 

However, I have personally experienced this and can state with confidence that after the crown opening, the 7 chakras collapse into a unified field, as Jonesboy has described on his post.  After my crown opening, I went through this powerful experience where all the chakras, seem to collapse into a single field.  I don't feel the chakras like how I used to feel them anymore, after the experience of going light.  This is consistent with the experience of several others.  May be, there are other ways to explain this.  I have read in some kriya yoga texts, that they talk about the 6 chakras below (1-6) rising up and becoming one with the crown.  They point out this happens only with the divine grace from a Guru or a divine being.  There are very little details presented about this (Ajna chakra along with 5 other chakras raising and merging with crown) on the texts I read.  I can look up to see which books they are.  This is the closest I came to finding in books, about this process.

[dwai]

 

7 minutes ago, C T said:

Maybe it just needs to be reworded, i dont know.. but i have never encountered any proposals of similar unification theories anywhere. I dont claim to be extremely well-versed but I have read quite a bit, met some really knowledgeable teachers, and been in numerous discussion groups with seasoned practitioners, but so far nothing ive encountered would suggest the possibility of moving beyond the 7 chakras, not because it cannot be done, but i think (no offence please) the premise for making this statement is inaccurate and not based on conventional understandings of chakras and their significance. 

 

(reset abstinence from posting)

Hi CT,

 

My teacher has told me about these chakras too (completely independent of what Jeff/Jonesboy et al have said). Mostly people don't go beyond the chakra above the crown, which my teacher calls "The Chakra to connect to your Higher Self". He also told me that there are many more chakras above that as well. 

 

My experience is that these charkas are just points of reference but useful points of reference, because who we are is not limited to the confines of the space-time that the body-mind entity exists in. Really the Awareness is neither in space, nor in time. But when the "I" consciousness arises, it also gives rise to space and time. This "I" consciousness is a complete, self-contained unit from which the universe-appearance manifests. Each individual being therein is like a subset/strand of the field of consciousness that emanates from this "I" (or Mind). These chakras give a way to go beyond the boundaries of the body-mind apparatuses. It is not for everyone perhaps.

 

It took  me a while to understand the implication of this going beyond the 7th chakra, aka "Going Light". What it does is allows one to expand their mind field to beyond what we know as the constraints of space-time (or newtonian physics), which in this parlance is called "local-mind". By going light (or re-connecting with the Higher Self in this way), one get's access to more dimensions of manifestation. It sounds very "new age" but this is where the deities, divine beings, immortals become "real". 

 

It's like crossing the threshold of not knowing one's Nondual nature (from dualistic beings) to being in Nondual awareness alone (Nirvikalpa Samadhi) to operating in duality while abiding as the Nondual awareness (sahaja samadhi). 

[Jetsun]

On the one hand you have the theory of rising the energy up through the Chakras until it comes out the top of the crown. Which is more a classical description. On the other hand you have the theory proposed here of going beyond the Chakras and merging them. These are two very different things and it sounds like Jonesboy is saying one and Dwai is saying another but assuming they are talking about the same thing. 

[Jonesboy]

8 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

On the one hand you have the theory of rising the energy up through the Chakras until it comes out the top of the crown. Which is more a classical description. On the other hand you have the theory proposed here of going beyond the Chakras and merging them. These are two very different things and it sounds like Jonesboy is saying one and Dwai is saying another but assuming they are talking about the same thing. 

 

Saying the same thing but dwai is describing it from within the tradition he has been practicing for over 10 years.

 

We are just talking about what happens next is all Jetsun.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Jonesboy

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

On the one hand you have the theory of rising the energy up through the Chakras until it comes out the top of the crown. Which is more a classical description. On the other hand you have the theory proposed here of going beyond the Chakras and merging them. These are two very different things and it sounds like Jonesboy is saying one and Dwai is saying another but assuming they are talking about the same thing. 

When the 8th chakra is reached and opened, all chakras will merge into a unified field. For me it was first felt in the heart, as the heart expanded to encompass the crown and above.

[Jetsun]

On an energetic level a chakra is a functioning part of your system, without them you would probably die or at least turn into a confused mess. I pretty much guarantee I could sense all your individual chakras one by one even those of you of think they have gone beyond them or unified them. 

 

When the energy goes out the top of the head it creates temporary samadhi like unified bliss consciousness, which isn't the same as awakening as awakening is about going in and through the heart. As per the way Ramana describes it anyway. Out the top of the head is temporary experience, through the heart permanent shift.

[Jonesboy]

Just now, Jetsun said:

On an energetic level a chakra is a functioning part of your system, without them you would probably die or at least turn into a confused mess. I pretty much guarantee I could sense all your individual chakras one by one even those of you of think they have gone beyond them or unified them. 

 

When the energy goes out the top of the head it creates temporary samadhi like unified bliss consciousness, which isn't the same as awakening as awakening is about going in and through the heart. As per the way Ramana describes it anyway. Out the top of the head is temporary experience, through the heart permanent shift.

 

Chakras are local mind maps.

 

Some traditions have more, some less and some don't use charkas at all.

 

Also, what is the true meaning of the Heart

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

On an energetic level a chakra is a functioning part of your system, without them you would probably die or at least turn into a confused mess. I pretty much guarantee I could sense all your individual chakras one by one even those of you of think they have gone beyond them or unified them. 

 

When the energy goes out the top of the head it creates temporary samadhi like unified bliss consciousness, which isn't the same as awakening as awakening is about going in and through the heart. As per the way Ramana describes it anyway. Out the top of the head is temporary experience, through the heart permanent shift.

The Heart is what expands

[Jetsun]

1 minute ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Chakras are local mind maps.

 

Some traditions have more, some less and some don't use charkas at all.

 

Also, what is the true meaning of the Heart

 

No chakras are energetic realities, on an energy level just as real as your internal organs. Nothing to do with mind beliefs. 

[Jonesboy]

2 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

 

No chakras are energetic realities, on an energy level just as real as your internal organs. Nothing to do with mind beliefs. 

 

Lot's of duality in that.

 

If you are a Buddha or One Like Siva.

 

Are chakras real?

Edited February 7, 2018 by Jonesboy