Merging and guru yoga

[Jetsun]

1 minute ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Lot's of duality in that.

 

If you are everything, or a Buddha or One Like Siva.

 

Are chakras real?

 

There is duality in everything.. as well as non-duality. Being everything or being Buddha is only half the deal, you are also localised, you can't say one cell is the same as another cell they have membranes and boundaries, when you stub your toe I don't feel it in this nervous system. 

 

On the level of energy chakras are as real as anything else, they have functions in the human body, distinctions from one another. If you break it down you can say nothing is real, but if you take that as the only truth on all levels then you will fall into trouble. 

[silent thunder]

Could it be that the manner of awareness interacting and experiencing Chakras is what shifts, rather than assuming that the chakras are altered?  Though who am I to discount the possibility that chakras can evolve?  Change is rather a persistent feature of anything involving a form.

 

It's rather palpable to me, that the patterns of energy I identify as separate Chakras operate together.  They are already unified even when when awareness percieves them distinctly and individually. 

 

Yet the individual chakras are always functioning as a unified process.  Not just that, but they are also unfied with all other systems within the body, the mind and the energetic selves...

 

Is it not plausible that when Awareness shifts from local identity/body/mental processes, the manner of interacting with chakras may shift from expriencing them individually, to systemically...?

[Jonesboy]

Just now, Jetsun said:

 

There is duality in everything.. as well as non-duality. Being everything or being Buddha is only half the deal, you are also localised, you can't say one cell is the same as another cell they have membranes and boundaries, when you stub your toe I don't feel it in this nervous system. 

 

On the level of energy chakras are as real as anything else, they have functions in the human body, distinctions from one another. If you break it down you can say nothing is real, but if you take that as the only truth on all levels then you will fall into trouble. 

 

Your body is real, sure. What happens when you realize it is just energy? A transmission you are caught up in?

 

It is all stages of realization to me.

 

I have moved beyond the standard 7 chakras yet when issues hit sure I can feel them in various chakras or in different parts of my body.

 

That is a lack of clarity. Not evidence that they are truly real.

[s1va]

37 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

On an energetic level a chakra is a functioning part of your system, without them you would probably die or at least turn into a confused mess. I pretty much guarantee I could sense all your individual chakras one by one even those of you of think they have gone beyond them or unified them. 

 

Maybe there is some misunderstanding.  I don't think the chakras disappear or are gone forever.  They collapse into a single unified field, does not mean they are gone.  I mentioned that I don't feel the chakras the same way as I did before.  This does not mean that they don't exist at all in any form.  As Jonesboy pointed out, if we look at them as mapping, they just get transformed into one unified field or undergo some great transformation.  Yes, it may still be possible to sense or feel the chakras.  

[C T]

thanks for the replies guys. Its probably valid from your perspective. I can appreciate that. 

[Jonesboy]

I can be a little much in my the way I come across in threads sometimes.

 

Please forgive me if I came across that way to you.

 

I’m working on it is all I can say.

 

Thank you to everyone for a really fun discussion. It was nice seeing a long thread without any fighting in it. Or very little 😆

 

Much love,

 

Tom

[Mark Foote]

13 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Also, if you think what I am referring to is the same as a couple dancing... Well, then you don't understand what I am talking about either.

 

 

 

Back at you.  I wasn't talking about the tango, the waltz, or the polka.

 

Free-style freaking in my experience is not about learned dance moves, it's an ability to feel someone on the inside.   

 

It's two people falling upright, together yet the effort is individual.  Sometimes when I have been really close to someone this way, I have felt like there was a dark sun that happened to be inside me, but inside someone else too simultaneously.

 

Seemed like the dark sun I felt might be related to the light under discussion here, but I have no idea. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Mark Foote

[MIchael80]

14 hours ago, C T said:

thanks for the replies guys. Its probably valid from your perspective. I can appreciate that. 

Hi CT!

 

Just wanted to add that Jerry A. Johnson does talk about the unification of the chakras in his daoist neigong book....though it is short.

all the best

Michael

[C T]

10 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

Hi CT!

 

Just wanted to add that Jerry A. Johnson does talk about the unification of the chakras in his daoist neigong book....though it is short.

all the best

Michael

 

Thanks Michael.

 

Im sure all kinds of Western validations can be found on a diverse range of theories involving chakras. 

Maybe some source validations from authentic yogic and tantric lineages will be helpful to balance the perspectives. What do you think? 

 

All the best to you too. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by C T

[Jonesboy]

Or maybe something new has come around...

[Jonesboy]

7 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Back at you.  I wasn't talking about the tango, the waltz, or the polka.

 

Free-style freaking in my experience is not about learned dance moves, it's an ability to feel someone on the inside.   

 

It's two people falling upright, together yet the effort is individual.  Sometimes when I have been really close to someone this way, I have felt like there was a dark sun that happened to be inside me, but inside someone else too simultaneously.

 

Seemed like the dark sun I felt might be related to the light under discussion here, but I have no idea. 

 

You know they call me Tommie Fever for a reason out on the dance floor? 

 

I think that is very cool that you feel that. Have you ever tried to feel it when not in physical contact?

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, C T said:

 

Thanks Michael.

 

Im sure all kinds of Western validations can be found on a diverse range of theories involving chakras. 

Maybe some source validations from authentic yogic and tantric lineages will be helpful to balance the perspectives. What do you think? 

 

All the best to you too. 

 

In taoism (Tao Te Ching), the integration and moving beyond the body’s chakras is called “being the stream of the universe”. In mystical Christianity, it is described like this...

 

22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom." They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

 

It is also described many places in Kashmir Shaivite texts. Very interesting to hear that it is not part of the Buddhist tradition. So does that mean that a “Buddha” does not move energetically beyond the chakras in the body? Is not the sambhogkaya more of a unified field?

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

In taoism (Tao Te Ching), the integration and moving beyond the body’s chakras is called “being the stream of the universe”. In mystical Christianity, it is described like this...

 

22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom." They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

 

It is also described many places in Kashmir Shaivite texts. Very interesting to hear that it is not part of the Buddhist tradition. So does that mean that a “Buddha” does not move energetically beyond the chakras in the body? Is not the sambhogkaya more of a unified field?

 

Could you define 'unified field' so that question could be answered - are we back to the 'one mind' thing?

 

Also any more about the collapsing the chakras into one or however it is explained would be of interest.

 

Thanks.

[dwai]

4 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

Hi CT!

 

Just wanted to add that Jerry A. Johnson does talk about the unification of the chakras in his daoist neigong book....though it is short.

all the best

Michael

iinm the Gift of Tao folks - @Ya Mu et al also mention this merging of the chakras or creation of a unified super-heart. 

[Jeff]

41 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Could you define 'unified field' so that question could be answered - are we back to the 'one mind' thing?

 

Also any more about the collapsing the chakras into one or however it is explained would be of interest.

 

Thanks.

 

Sorry, one mind thing?  Something I have said?

 

With unified field, I was just trying to use a potentially generic term since people earlier were kind of mixing traditions.  You could also call it the "light body" as opposed the the "energy body" with all of the chakras.  I touch on it in my post regarding becoming an immortal in chapter 28 of the Tao Te Ching.

 

 

The description around it is the "Being the stream of the universe, Ever true and unswerving, Become as a little child once more." part of the right up.  You need to move beyond the local body mind (and all of the chakra stuff) to become the stream of the universe (light body).  A light body is really more of a deeper refinement of view than the chakras, but from the perspective of the local body mind, it is sort of like all of the chakras merge into one larger unified field.  Like you let go of or drop the bubble of individual sense of self and body (with all the chakras).  I had always assumed that was just part of what buddhists had meant as part of the "emptiness of self", but maybe I was wrong. Maybe emptiness of self just means having a quiet mind. Is there really no concept of something like a light body in buddhism?

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Sorry, one mind thing?  Something I have said?

 

With unified field, I was just trying to use a potentially generic term since people earlier were kind of mixing traditions.  You could also call it the "light body" as opposed the the "energy body" with all of the chakras.  I touch on it in my post regarding becoming an immortal in chapter 28 of the Tao Te Ching.

 

 

The description around it is the "Being the stream of the universe, Ever true and unswerving, Become as a little child once more." part of the right up.  You need to move beyond the local body mind (and all of the chakra stuff) to become the stream of the universe (light body).  A light body is really more of a deeper refinement of view than the chakras, but from the perspective of the local body mind, it is sort of like all of the chakras merge into one larger unified field.  Like you let go of or drop the bubble of individual sense of self and body (with all the chakras).  I had always assumed that was just part of what buddhists had meant as part of the "emptiness of self", but maybe I was wrong. Maybe emptiness of self just means having a quiet mind. Is there really no concept of something like a light body in buddhism?

 

Ok thanks that makes sense.

 

Emptiness of self refers to the absence of svabhava (self-being ?) in all phenomena - which of course can be applied to your own sense of self.

 

In Vajrayana there is the diamond or vajra body sometimes called light body.

 

I can't recall any merging of chakras - but of course you might consider them to be projections as in the colours of rainbow as distinct to sun light - but there may be such a teaching that I'm not aware of.

[Jetsun]

Like Silent Thunder said earlier the Chakras are already a unified field, in the sense they are already in a relationship with each other, you affect one and it influences another. But really all of life is a unified field, all interconnected all interrelated, all one. I don't see the realisation that the Chakras are a unified field is anywhere as important as realising that life is. 

[dwai]

42 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

Like Silent Thunder said earlier the Chakras are already a unified field, in the sense they are already in a relationship with each other, you affect one and it influences another. But really all of life is a unified field, all interconnected all interrelated, all one. I don't see the realisation that the Chakras are a unified field is anywhere as important as realising that life is. 

The truth (non dual) is ineffable and the ordinary mind cannot go there. The methods out there are dualistic paths to drop the duality. Some people might get to the chakra unification idea first and that would lead them to the unified life knowledge. It is not a uni-directional linear progression, imho. The bottom can lead to the top and the top to the bottom, the in to the out and the out to the in. 

 

[s1va]

3 hours ago, Jetsun said:

Like Silent Thunder said earlier the Chakras are already a unified field, in the sense they are already in a relationship with each other, you affect one and it influences another. But really all of life is a unified field, all interconnected all interrelated, all one. I don't see the realisation that the Chakras are a unified field is anywhere as important as realising that life is. 

 

The general inter-relationship between chakras and the unified field that is discussed here are not the same thing - imo.  The relationship may have always existed, everything is relative to everything else, etc. 

 

But, the unified field seems to be the result of a profound transformation that happens after the opening of chakras 1-7.  A transformation that seems to result in the realization of light.  It's not some abstract concept that was always there, but a phenomenal transformation and realization to be experienced by each and everyone.   Even every chakra opening is a minor transformation (a shift) and results in some type of minor realization.    Just by knowing the concepts of a chakra opening or by thinking it is already open, it doesn't open, and the necessary transformation for that chakra does not occur due to a concept or knowledge.  Similarly, this is a transformational event to be experienced or realized.  

 

How important is it?  Each person can decide for themselves after experiencing.  Only after experiencing a person can honestly state how important it is to them.   Heart chakra opening was a big deal for me and an important factor and a milestone.  For some  it may not be such an important thing.  Each one always come to know with their own personal experience and, certainly not by knowing the concepts, I think you would agree.  If one has gone through this actual transformation, they will know for themselves how important it is (also, whether it is important)!

Edited February 8, 2018 by s1va

[Fa Xin]

For me, a big shift was opening the 5th chakra - and feeling energy and interacting with others. At the time I had started a serious qigong practice. 

 

That was a big shift because I started focusing on that feeling, and the subtle changes the energy brought with it.  Previous to this, I focused more on my thoughts and physical sensations. Being able to quiet my mind and focus on the subtle sensations that were happening inside... allowed me to get out of many habitual mind patterns and cycles. It also allowed me to start sensing the deeper stuff, like my own subconscious patterns and how I was interacting with others on a personal level. 

 

Edit: Grammar 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Fa Xin

[Apech]

Merge in this brother and sisters ...

 

 

 

... not the hand obviously.

[Mark Foote]

I can't say I have any experience with chakras. 

 

Here's Gautama's short advice on developing psychic powers:

 

So he abides fully conscious of what is behind and what is in front.
As (he is conscious of what is) in front, so behind: as behind, so in front;
as below, so above: as above, so below:
as by day, so by night: as by night, so by day.
Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, he cultivates his mind to brilliancy.

 

(Sanyutta-Nikaya, text V 263, Pali Text Society volume 5 pg 235, ©Pali Text Society)

 

If you're interested, you can read my expansion here.

 

The last line in particular I think might be relevant, particularly as the whole methodology is being prescribed as a means to develop psychic power.  This is some of what I had to say about it in my expansion:
 

“Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, he cultivates his mind to brilliancy”: Gautama explained that a monk “cultivates his mind to brilliancy” when the monk’s “consciousness of light is well grasped, his consciousness of daylight is well-sustained.”

 

As to the “consciousness of light” or of “daylight”, the gland which is perhaps most responsive to daylight in the body is the pineal gland (the pineal produces melatonin), and the gland is supported by a bone in the interior of the skull (the sphenoid) that flexes and extends with the rhythm of the cranial-sacral fluid. The bases of psychic power were desire, energy, thought, and investigation (together with the co-factors of concentration and struggle), and they were to be cultivated by the use of the four-part method described in Gautama’s stanza. Whether or not there is a way to perform miracles and see the past lives or karmic fate of others, I can’t say; that there may be a way to bring about psychic experience through a “consciousness of daylight”, and possibly the occurrence of consciousness at the place where daylight most affects the endocrinology of the body, I would guess could be (although the precise nature of that phenomena may not be what it was thought to be in 500 B.C.E, as for example, the miracle of “handling and stroking the sun and moon with the hand”).

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Mark Foote

[C T]

24 minutes ago, Apech said:

Merge in this brother and sisters ...

 

 

 

... not the hand obviously.

 

Out shopping, Apech? 

[s1va]

25 minutes ago, Apech said:

Merge in this brother and sisters ...

 

 

 

... not the hand obviously.

 

Merge with the Vajra body/mind?

[s1va]

21 hours ago, Apech said:

Merge in this brother and sisters ...

 

 

 

... not the hand obviously.

 

How does one merge with vajra body/mind? Care to expand, what it means and how is it practiced?