Merging and guru yoga

[Jonesboy]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

I would agree more with CT on this point.  Your quote is talking about bodhisattvas, and a bodhisattva while “great” and helping, is not fully clear, so the range of their knowing can be spectacular, but there is still some level of obscuration. A “full” buddha has cleared all such obscurations, and hence sees all other beings as Buddha’s themselves.  In a way, it is kind of like they move beyond/lose/give up such differentiation that would allow for the mind viewing of your quote.

 

This is also why bodhisattvas are kind of like the ones who hold the gate, or stay back to help. Often sutra describes them as waiting to be the last to cross over as part of their commitment to all other sentient beings.  

 

Interesting,

 

I thought that was a misquote regarding Bodhisattva's staying back. I have also read where they seek buddhahood to help others.

 

Now, we are touching on an interesting topic with your "Full" Buddha. So, there can be Buddha's that have differentiation?

 

Also, doesn't the sutra that I linked to show that a Buddha can see such issues and differences?

Edited July 25, 2019 by Jonesboy

[Jeff]

Just now, Jonesboy said:

 

Interesting,

 

I thought that was a misquote regarding Bodhisattva's staying back. I have also read where they seek buddhahood to help others.

 

So you are saying a Buddha only sees others as Buddhas and can't really differentiate at the same level as a Bodhisattva can?

 

Basically, the overall concept is sort of like Buddha’s live/reside in buddhaland, where everyone ultimately (past, present & future) is ultimately a buddha.  Kind of like a buddha sees and relates to you in your “perfection”, rather than the detail level of normal existence. 

 

This difference of perspective (and that there is the potential to help others) is part of the shift from the older sutra concept of an Arhat. It is sort of like the higher the Buddhist Yana, the more potential (or tools) to help others.  These greater tools are why often Dzogchen Buddha’s are described as vastly more powerful than the old Arahats.

[Jonesboy]

1 hour ago, C T said:

 

Yes its best not to place too much confidence on what i wrote. 

If interested, you may find the investigation on this subject by Santaraksita in the Tattvasamgraha Tantra to be rather extensive. His student elucidated further with the commentary entitled Tattvasamgrahapanjika. 

 

Breaking it down to its bare essence, from the Buddhist pov, its believed that exhaustive omniscience is possible solely thru the delusion-free apprehension of the selfless universal nature of all knowables. Therefore the focus of practice is the cultivation of insight to facilitate the birth and development of that delusion-free apprehension that is believed to remove the veil of ignorance. One who has permanently pacified even the subtlest possibilities of this veil ever arising again is said to be fully established in the ultimate knowledge of the nature of all knowables, which is that all knowables are impermanent, causes suffering when comprehended ignorantly, and their arisings are dependent on a perceiver, without which nothing that is known has any real existence, including this self that beings think they have. 

 

Very well said and thank you CT.

 

Maybe one way of looking at it is to say that along the path one gains all sorts of abilities such as knowing but even that must be let go of because it to is an illusion.

[Jonesboy]

14 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Basically, the overall concept is sort of like Buddha’s live/reside in buddhaland, where everyone ultimately (past, present & future) is ultimately a buddha.  Kind of like a buddha sees and relates to you in your “perfection”, rather than the detail level of normal existence. 

 

This difference of perspective (and that there is the potential to help others) is part of the shift from the older sutra concept of an Arhat. It is sort of like the higher the Buddhist Yana, the more potential (or tools) to help others.  These greater tools are why often Dzogchen Buddha’s are described as vastly more powerful than the old Arahats.

 

What tools or more potential is needed if everyone is seen as a perfect Buddha?

[Jeff]

20 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

What tools or more potential is needed if everyone is seen as a perfect Buddha?

 

It is not really relevant to a "buddha" themself.  What I was attempting to describe is really more the extended range of sort of "pre-buddha".  In old sutra views, with there concept of an Arahat, there was no powerful Bodhisattva (like your original quote) concept. In later Yana's they become more like "immortals" that can help others.

[Apech]

43 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Interesting,

 

I thought that was a misquote regarding Bodhisattva's staying back. I have also read where they seek buddhahood to help others.

 

Now, we are touching on an interesting topic with your "Full" Buddha. So, there can be Buddha's that have differentiation?

 

Also, doesn't the sutra that I linked to show that a Buddha can see such issues and differences?

 

One of the things that happened when Buddhism came to the west was this idea that Bodhisattvas somehow forgo enlightenment for the sake of others.  Its a misunderstanding.  A Bodhisattva is a being on the path - essentially on the Bhumis towards Buddhhood.  The optimum way of helping people is to become a Buddha - so turning back from that would not help people more.  But there is an idea in there which is a bit like being a life guard faced with a tsunami - who is willing to dive in the help others rather than save themselves - even though the tsunami in this case = samsara is 'illusory'*

 

* meaning not substantially real in itself but a projection of Buddha nature (etc.)

[Jonesboy]

13 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

It is not really relevant to a "buddha" themself.  What I was attempting to describe is really more the extended range of sort of "pre-buddha".  In old sutra views, with there concept of an Arahat, there was no powerful Bodhisattva (like your original quote) concept. In later Yana's they become more like "immortals" that can help others.

 

Does immortals have the differentiation that we have discussed unlike a Buddha?

[Jonesboy]

13 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

One of the things that happened when Buddhism came to the west was this idea that Bodhisattvas somehow forgo enlightenment for the sake of others.  Its a misunderstanding.  A Bodhisattva is a being on the path - essentially on the Bhumis towards Buddhhood.  The optimum way of helping people is to become a Buddha - so turning back from that would not help people more.  But there is an idea in there which is a bit like being a life guard faced with a tsunami - who is willing to dive in the help others rather than save themselves - even though the tsunami in this case = samsara is 'illusory'*

 

* meaning not substantially real in itself but a projection of Buddha nature (etc.)

 

Thank you Apech. 

 

That goes along with my own understanding. I also think/believe that it is that desire to help others that helps a Bodhisattva move beyond certain stages as well.

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Does immortals have the differentiation that we have discussed unlike a Buddha?

 

Yes, in Daoism, there are different types and levels of immortals.

[ilumairen]

 

Quote

Also, doesn't the sutra that I linked to show that a Buddha can see such issues and differences?

 

I've read the sutra you shared, and it, to me shows an understanding of causes within samsara and their outcomes. In the tradition I follow there are six lokas, not five, but the premise and understanding seem very similar.

 

[Apech]

27 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Thank you Apech. 

 

That goes along with my own understanding. I also think/believe that it is that desire to help others that helps a Bodhisattva move beyond certain stages as well.

 

 

Yes absolutely.  Even at a basic level there are blocks arising through egoic striving.  At a higher level I would say that the bigger your aspiration then the more expansive your realisation.  Of course this can't be fabricated - which is why the highest regard is held for those who arouse bodhicitta in you - it is quite rare and precious.

[Pilgrim]

22 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

Wouldn't both the silence and energy already be present? So both would be experienced, and the question would actually be one of recognition?

I would say not recognition alone as it must surly follow awareness which comes from focus.

 

For example when you are asleep do you perceive the car driving by your house in the middle of the night?

 

First you would have to awaken then something would have to catch your attention like the sound of the car or the flashing of the headlights then you focus looking out the window and recognize a car driving by.

 

Alternatively you can keep vigil at the window and wait for something to go by that can be recognized.

[ilumairen]

 

12 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

I found this to be a very interesting Sutra as well.

 

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.012.ntbb.html

 

 

From the link:

Quote

 

The Five Destinations and Nibbana — In Detail

 

37. (1) "By encompassing mind with mind I understand a certain person thus: 'This person so behaves, so conducts himself, has taken such a path that on the dissolution of the body, after death, he will reappear in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell.' And then later on, with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I see that on the dissolution of the body, after death, he has reappeared in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell, and is experiencing extremely painful, racking, piercing feelings. Suppose there were a charcoal pit deeper than a man's height full of glowing coals without flame or smoke; and then a man scorched and exhausted by hot weather, weary, parched and thirsty, came by a path going in one way only and directed to that same charcoal pit. Then a man with good sight on seeing him would say: 'This person so behaves, so conducts himself, has taken such a path, that he will come to this same charcoal pit'; and then later on he sees that he has fallen into that charcoal pit and is experiencing extremely painful, racking, piercing feelings. So too, by encompassing mind with mind... piercing feelings.

 

 

Encompassing mind with mind.. is this what has captured your attention?

[C T]

There's a passage in the Kanakathalla Sutta that mentions a conversation between King Pasenadi and Gautama. 

King Pasenadi: "I have heard this about you, revered sir, that you have proclaimed there is neither a recluse or a brahmin, who, all knowing, all seeing, can claim all embracing knowledge and vision - this situation does not exist. Revered sir, those who spoke thus, I hope that what was said were the actual words spoken by the Lord, and they did not misrepresent the Lord by what is not fact, that they explained Dhamma according to Dhamma. Could it be, revered sir, that people might have transferred to quite another topic something originally said by the Lord in reference to something else?"

 

To which Gautama replied: 

"I sire, claim to have spoken the words thus: There is neither a recluse or a brahman who at one and the same time can know all, can see all -- this situation does not exist." 

 

 

 

 

The above excerpt taken from Buddhist Omniscience by Alex Naughton. 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by C T

[ilumairen]

20 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

I would say not recognition alone as it must surly follow awareness which comes from focus.

 

Awareness would indicate recognition, (although we may be using the terms a bit differently).

 

Quote

For example when you are asleep do you perceive the car driving by your house in the middle of the night?

 

First you would have to awaken then something would have to catch your attention like the sound of the car or the flashing of the headlights then you focus looking out the window and recognize a car driving by.

 

This hypothetical car drives by, whether I recognize or am aware of it's passing, or not - which was rather the point. 

 

Non-reified silence and energy would be ever present in the experience of a living human. 

 

Quote

Alternatively you can keep vigil at the window and wait for something to go by that can be recognized.

 

Sure, you can... 

 

The issue, for me, is in regard to the degree "an introduction" is dependent as much (or more so) on the individual being introduced to themselves, as the person "providing" said introduction. And the degree to which the "introducing party" may be "elevated" in perception. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by ilumairen

[Jonesboy]

 

 

Edited..

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Jonesboy

[Jonesboy]

1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

From the link:

 

Encompassing mind with mind.. is this what has captured your attention?

 

Yes, non dual but instead of knowing the sutra is talking about the Buddha being able to see the past lives, etc.. of others.

[ilumairen]

1 minute ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Yes, non dual but instead of knowing the sutra is talking about the Buddha being able to see the past lives, etc.. of others.

 

There was a bit about the paths of the individuals used as examples leading to only singular destinations.. 

 

Does this hold any significance to you?

[Jonesboy]

8 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

There was a bit about the paths of the individuals used as examples leading to only singular destinations.. 

 

Does this hold any significance to you?

 

And this part?

 

Quote

10. (1) "Here, the Tathagata understands as it actually is the possible as possible and the impossible as impossible.[6] And that [70] is a Tathagata's power that the Tathagata has, by virtue of which he claims the herd-leader's place, roars his lion's roar in the assemblies, and sets rolling the Wheel of Brahma.

11. (2) "Again, the Tathagata understands as it actually is the results of actions undertaken, past, future and present, with possibilities and with causes. That too is a Tathagata's power...[7]

12. (3) "Again, the Tathagata understands as it actually is the ways leading to all destinations. That too is a Tathagata's power...[8]

13. (4) "Again, the Tathagata understands as it actually is the world with its many and different elements. That too is a Tathagata's power...[9]

14. (5) "Again, the Tathagata understands as it actually is how beings have different inclinations. That too is a Tathagata's power...[10]

15. (6) "Again, the Tathagata understands as it actually is the disposition of the faculties of other beings, other persons. That too is a Tathagata's power...[11]

16. (7) "Again, the Tathagata understands as it actually is the defilement, the cleansing and the emergence in regard to the jhanas, liberations, concentrations and attainments. That too is a Tathagata's power...[12]

 

Seems like differentiation and knowing to me..

 

How?

 

Mind to mind..

 

But as has been pointed out, how it actually is, isn't a differentiation..

 

With that being said.. my path isn't Buddhist.. but it is nice learning something and correcting a misunderstanding with regard to Buddhism.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Jonesboy

[ilumairen]

2 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

And this part?

 

 

Seems like differentiation and knowing to me..

 

How?

 

Mind to mind..

 

Is this meant as an answer to the question I asked, or are you presupposing an argument I have not made and responding to that?

[Jonesboy]

2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Is this meant as an answer to the question I asked, or are you presupposing an argument I have not made and responding to that?

 

How about, I didn't fully understand your question and did my best to answer it while at the same time admitting I was wrong in my previous posts.

[Pilgrim]

3 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

Awareness would indicate recognition, (although we may be using the terms a bit differently).

 

 

This hypothetical car drives by, whether I recognize or am aware of it's passing, or not - which was rather the point. 

 

Non-reified silence and energy would be ever present in the experience of a living human. 

 

 

Sure, you can... 

 

The issue, for me, is in regard to the degree "an introduction" is dependent as much (or more so) on the individual being introduced to themselves, as the person "providing" said introduction. And the degree to which the "introducing party" may be "elevated" in perception. 

Yes we are on the same page.

 

I also think a person sufficiently elevated shall not be able to effectively communicate with the introductory party least the introductory party be of sufficiently elevated perception. 

[Jeff]

19 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Yes we are on the same page.

 

I also think a person sufficiently elevated shall not be able to effectively communicate with the introductory party least the introductory party be of sufficiently elevated perception. 

 

I think it is much more about the ability to surrender/trust/let go than it is about previously having a sufficiently elevated perception. 

[Pilgrim]

4 hours ago, ilumairen said:

Awareness would indicate recognition, (although we may be using the terms a bit differently).

Hmmm Seems we are. In my case I mean it like this: Recognition is dependent upon awareness. Awareness is not dependent upon recognition.

 

I remember one time seeing a turkey neck that had somehow fallen in a pot and got put away. My Mother discovered it by accident trying to find the source of what smelled bad in the kitchen.

 

She was pissed off and was certain the source of the smell was going to be something either I or my two younger brothers had caused to happen in her kitchen. 

 

She was in a bad mood as she started pulling all the pots and pans out of the cabinets, then she screamed.

 

I thought oh great a snake got in then was staring dumbfounded at what was in the pot like a ape watching a wheel spinning not able to recognize it as a wheel.

 

I looked at it wondering what the hell it was?

 

My Mother was beside herself pointing and the contents of the pot she dropped, yelling Oh My God it's a Dead Penis!!!   

 

Clearly I was aware of this thing I was seeing but there was no dawning of recognition whatsoever at all.  My Mothers hysterical proclamation was weighed and analyzed immediately for validity then rejected based on the probability of such a thing in the first place.

 

What could it be? 

 

My Great-grandmother came in the kitchen wondering what all the commotion was about. At this point I was wondering well whatever it is I sure hope I don't get blamed for it! 

 

The older woman reached in the pot while my Mother was screaming are you crazy don't  don't touch that!!! 

 

She then identified the offending object as a turkey neck.

 

I busted up laughing and it was ill appreciated. My Mother was / still is possessed of an Epic short lived temper with a rough mouth.

 

She scornfully looked at me and said I am sick and tired of living in a house full of filthy disgusting men what makes you think this is so funny?!! 

 

Danged if I did not just laugh harder and judiciously ran outside forthwith & posthaste least she employ a hair brush, wooden spoon or other object to aid in correcting my sense of humor which had found root in her embarrassment.

 

Had I not been at the counter sitting in a chair but had been in bed asleep or even outside in the woods this drama would have escaped notice.

 

Awareness of the outer world ( as an example ) is not possible when one is tuned in or focused on the inner world as occurs both in deep sleep and deep Samadhi by practices.

 

So it is a prerequisite that one is consciously awake and not asleep or in Samadhi  and present and aware of their environment otherwise recognition of anything is impossible. 

 

In the middle of the night when you are soundly snoring though the car exists you are neither aware nor conscious in the outer world.

 

This makes any possibility of recognition of the outer world or the things in and of it quite impossible as your awareness is adorning another dimension at the time. 

 

Reminds me of if a tree falls int he forest is their a sound if no one is their to hear it. The answer of course is yes the sound made by the tree falling is not dependent upon anyone being aware let alone recognizing yep that's the sound of a tree falling for it to have made a sound.

 

It is also equally irrelevant, that is unless it happens to be your house it fell on while you were absent.

 

[dwai]

6 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

Awareness would indicate recognition, (although we may be using the terms a bit differently).

Awareness as is used in the eastern traditions is pure objectless 

consciousness. This and that come as a result of it. 

The technical term for it is “chit” or “chaitanya”. The conditioned consciousness (of this and that) is a composite of four functions/processes that emerge from chaitanya - mind or manas (the field of thoughts), ego or ahamkara (that identifies with this or that), Chitta ie impression storehouse (which stores all the impressions and memories that arise in the manas. Finally is buddhi or intellect, that allows conceptualization and comprehension (like what the reader would use to understand what I just wrote). 

6 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

This hypothetical car drives by, whether I recognize or am aware of it's passing, or not - which was rather the point. 

 

Non-reified silence and energy would be ever present in the experience of a living human. 

 

 

Sure, you can... 

 

The issue, for me, is in regard to the degree "an introduction" is dependent as much (or more so) on the individual being introduced to themselves, as the person "providing" said introduction. And the degree to which the "introducing party" may be "elevated" in perception. 

It’s like a finger pointing to your own self nature (or if you are a Buddhist, your “not self”). So not so much introducer, more like a guide. 

 

There are many ways of doing this, it varies from tradition to tradition. Some have the master speak. When words come from awakeness, the awakeness within the listener becomes revealed. 

 

Some do it via mind stream transmission. 

 

Some do it via physical touch (like my master did to me).