Merging and guru yoga

[Jeff]

12 hours ago, C T said:

 

Watch from the 6min mark... you'll get an idea of the blink-free "resting" state. 

Over the years, I've also met and sat with such yogis, who can remain for hours absorbed in non-referential awareness. 

 

 

 

Thank you.  Very helpful.  

[Jeff]

15 hours ago, steve said:

Acknowledging and working with the reality of our ignorance is necessary, otherwise this becomes nothing more than a mind game. Folks that glibly equate everyday life with mediation come across this way to me. My everyday life is not a continuous state of samadhi. Your earlier comments suggest that to be the case.

 

Stagnation most certainly can come from recognizing and talking about the truth. The crucial point is what recognition means to our daily activity and relationships.

 

Is there a state of mind that is free from suffering?

 

 

Depends on how one defines a state of mind, but yes, similar to what CT described with his Rigpa description.  Such happens when deep meditation is “known” to be the same as normal daily life.  It is not mind or the use of it that creates the problem, it is the getting caught up in the obstructions (issues and fears) that create the perception of suffering.  When it flows freely, there is not the attachment or avoidance that stimulate the suffering. 

[doc benway]

29 minutes ago, Jeff said:

It is not mind or the use of it that creates the problem, it is the getting caught up in the obstructions (issues and fears) that create the perception of suffering.

If not mind, what is it that is getting caught up in obstructions?

 

29 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 When it flows freely, there is not the attachment or avoidance that stimulate the suffering. 

What is flowing freely?

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, steve said:

If not mind, what is it that is getting caught up in obstructions?

 

What is flowing freely?

 

I think the problem is with definitions of words like mind.  In my view, it is all “you”, so it does not matter what is mind or not mind, but in Buddhist terms i think it is easiest to compare and explain with the Yogacara framework. Things do not flow freely when there is separation from those issues and fears. They remain subconscious to your conscious awareness. Residing in the “primordial state” is what I mean by cutting through.  All of the “states” of mind are really the same, more simple an overlay on the primordial. Based in the primordial, the rest of it does not go away, but when one “hits” an obstruction, it spontaneously perfects (or clears).  This clearing vs. not being affected by, is the difference that I have been trying to describe in past posts. In my view of the primordial, it really does “dissolve”, leaving free flowing energy/light in its place.

 

That is why I am always advocating be it all... No separation from any aspect.  It is all empty, but it is also like KS describes of being Siva.

[doc benway]

43 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I think the problem is with definitions of words like mind.  In my view, it is all “you”, so it does not matter what is mind or not mind, but in Buddhist terms i think it is easiest to compare and explain with the Yogacara framework. Things do not flow freely when there is separation from those issues and fears. They remain subconscious to your conscious awareness. Residing in the “primordial state” is what I mean by cutting through.  All of the “states” of mind are really the same, more simple an overlay on the primordial. Based in the primordial, the rest of it does not go away, but when one “hits” an obstruction, it spontaneously perfects (or clears).  This clearing vs. not being affected by, is the difference that I have been trying to describe in past posts. In my view of the primordial, it really does “dissolve”, leaving free flowing energy/light in its place.

 

That is why I am always advocating be it all... No separation from any aspect.  It is all empty, but it is also like KS describes of being Siva.

I'm sorry, I appreciate your explanation but not sure I follow.

It's OK though, no need to work too hard. 

 

 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, steve said:

I'm sorry, I appreciate your explanation but not sure I follow.

It's OK though, no need to work too hard. 

 

 

 

Sorry, that my explanation does not make sense.  Maybe it is better to just describe it in practical terms.  Residing in the primordial, all issues and fears simply dissolve when they come up (not avoided, simply gone). The underlying issue and fear is gone, leaving free flowing energy/light in it’s place (knowing it is empty - hence dissolves). Also, since there is “being Siva” (or being all/everything) aspect, you are one with everything (or like Jesus said, we are all one in Christ).  This knowing that one is all allows this “dissolving” aspect of the primordial to be directly shared (similar to a merge).  So if one understands that when Jesus talks about “sin” he means that which separates one from the primordial (issues and fears), and my definition of directly sharing is what he meant when he said he had the power to forgive (or take away) sins.  You just need to believe and accept the release (not ego hold on to them).

 

As a direct example, the dynamic is what I have people work on when I lead what some call a “dive”.  I extend the field directly to the participants, and have them bring up an issue or fear. With a strong and trusting connection, the fear will dissolve for the person, but even with a weaker connection, the issue holds no fear or power while the field is shared, so they then can know/realize that they underlying fear is “empty” and simply an energy flow running around their subconscious.

 

That version make more sense?

[ilumairen]

1 hour ago, steve said:

I'm sorry, I appreciate your explanation but not sure I follow.

It's OK though, no need to work too hard. 

 

This is only tenuously related, although perhaps pertinent to the overall discussion, and perhaps not.

 

When I was learning the Sherap Chamma practice, in the visualization Sherap Chamma was like the golden warmth of the Sun, while Tapihritsa was like the cooling comfort of the moon. It was supportive and lovely, and then... the question of respect/disrespect arose.. and my connection with the golden warmth and cooling comfort was experentially diminished. 

 

When I shared this with my instructor, the only instruction and guidance offered was to leave it, and return.. again and again return without judgement.

[ilumairen]

 

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

As a direct example, the dynamic is what I have people work on when I lead what some call a “dive”.  I extend the field directly to the participants, and have them bring up an issue or fear. With a strong and trusting connection, the fear will dissolve for the person, but even with a weaker connection, the issue holds no fear or power while the field is shared, so they then can know/realize that they underlying fear is “empty” and simply an energy flow running around their subconscious.

 

That version make more sense?

 

My personal experience with you was, a bit like this.. however distorted.

 

Personally, it was confusing and damaging. Right from the get go, there was the presentation of "abiding" - without consideration of circumstance. I understand you have been very helpful to others, and respect and appreciate this - while still believing you should take some precautions with the advice to abide, and what you may be suggesting one abide through. Sometimes, it's time for action.

 

 

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

My personal experience with you was, a bit like this.. however distorted.

 

Personally, it was confusing and damaging. Right from the get go, there was the presentation of "abiding" - without consideration of circumstance. I understand you have been very helpful to others, and respect and appreciate this - while still believing you should take some precautions with the advice to abide, and what you may be suggesting one abide through. Sometimes, it's time for action.

 

 

 

Our joint experience was not what I was describing, the dynamic (and energy aspects) was significantly different.  Additionally, as we discussed at the time, your issues and the situation were particularly unique.  If you want to discuss the specifics of our interaction, just let me know, but it is not really relevant anymore with the broader shift in the world that I have talked in many past threads. The dynamics of what you were doing energetically have been sort “superseded” (and no longer work that way).

[ilumairen]

I was only referring to telling a woman in an abusive relationship to "abide" - which started on the board itself prior to any private interaction between us.

 

If you no longer do this, then i'm content to let it rest.

[C T]

I much prefer the perennially solid, authentic and unchanging traditional teachings and practices where the proverbial goalpost stays put and the only thing that gets purified is the veil that distorts vision, and distracts one from recognising original wakefulness. Not convinced by claimants purporting the ability to energetically "shift" and "dissolve" issues for others, although I have met a few over the years, and know of friends who bought into such things, only to realize the flimsiness of the whole experience, especially noting how they became increasingly drawn to the sessions, and gradually noticed how they were hankering after the attention of the "lightning rod"'-like nature of the group facilitator, which they report they had no real control over. It led to some dependency issues. Its not entirely the fault of the facilitators though. It appears there's much gullibility present to have enabled the relationship, and participants might do well to take responsibility by looking deeper at their own vulnerabilities and find a proper path to work with instead of shifting the focus to someone or something external.

 

Im reminded of all the hullabaloo surrounding one "Lama" Dorje Dondrup (real name Peter Yeung) years ago who made all kinds of outlandish claims about chi bubble, energy transfer etc. and how he was recognised as a Tulku by Penor Rinpoche and all the lineage affiliations he had. It was hogwash, and he got busted for it. Not denying the guy may have some chi manipulation ability, but he's a prime example of someone who became irresponsible and got carried away by a flimsy siddhi.I believe there were some discussion threads (or thread) here on TDB too about this fella. 

[ilumairen]

 

12 minutes ago, C T said:

It appears there's much gullibility present to have enabled the relationship, and participants might do well to take responsibility by looking deeper at their own vulnerabilities and find a proper path to work with instead of shifting the focus to someone or something external.

 

Yep.

 

Been there; done that. Didn't bother with a t-shirt though. 

 

[s1va]

52 minutes ago, C T said:

I much prefer the perennially solid, authentic and unchanging traditional teachings and practices where the proverbial goalpost stays put and the only thing that gets purified is the veil that distorts vision, and distracts one from recognising original wakefulness.

 

Change is inevitable.  The manifest universe is always constantly in a state of flux.  Gautama Buddha advocated something against what you described.  The Hindu priests of his time opposed Buddha with similar arguments.  They wanted to follow what they believed as solid authentic and traditional teachings. Gautama Buddha's teachings were radical and against tradition at that time.  

 

Buddha taught us we should not accept anything at face value because it is traditional and  in my opinion this is a very valuable lesson.  I agree with the rest of what you stated.  There are gullible students and some so called teachers who take advantage of them.  But, an open and inquiring mind that is not rigid and locked with one belief system is very important.  We need to adapt and progress in this ever changing universe.

 

[doc benway]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Depends on how one defines a state of mind, but yes, similar to what CT described with his Rigpa description.  Such happens when deep meditation is “known” to be the same as normal daily life.  It is not mind or the use of it that creates the problem, it is the getting caught up in the obstructions (issues and fears) that create the perception of suffering.  When it flows freely, there is not the attachment or avoidance that stimulate the suffering. 

 

4 hours ago, steve said:

If not mind, what is it that is getting caught up in obstructions?

 

What is flowing freely?

 

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Sorry, that my explanation does not make sense.  Maybe it is better to just describe it in practical terms.  Residing in the primordial, all issues and fears simply dissolve when they come up (not avoided, simply gone). The underlying issue and fear is gone, leaving free flowing energy/light in it’s place (knowing it is empty - hence dissolves). Also, since there is “being Siva” (or being all/everything) aspect, you are one with everything (or like Jesus said, we are all one in Christ).  This knowing that one is all allows this “dissolving” aspect of the primordial to be directly shared (similar to a merge).  So if one understands that when Jesus talks about “sin” he means that which separates one from the primordial (issues and fears), and my definition of directly sharing is what he meant when he said he had the power to forgive (or take away) sins.  You just need to believe and accept the release (not ego hold on to them).

 

Thanks for the description.

 

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

As a direct example, the dynamic is what I have people work on when I lead what some call a “dive”.  I extend the field directly to the participants, and have them bring up an issue or fear. With a strong and trusting connection, the fear will dissolve for the person, but even with a weaker connection, the issue holds no fear or power while the field is shared, so they then can know/realize that they underlying fear is “empty” and simply an energy flow running around their subconscious.

 

That version make more sense?

 

Once again, I appreciate the effort, but unfortunately not.

You mentioned that it is not mind or the use of mind that creates problems, it is getting caught up in obstructions.

I asked if not mind, what is it that is getting caught up in obstruction?

Your responses really haven't touched on my question.

 

 

[s1va]

Wanted to share my views on 'abiding', for what it's worth.  Abiding or residing in the primordial state does not mean 'no action' or not undertaking the right action in the world outside.  It is not exactly the same as Wu Wei, but there are some similarities.  Some people translate the Wu Wei also as inaction or 'no action' or doing nothing.  This is wrong in my opinion.  I don't think any Taoist master taught anyone to do nothing in the world outside.  It means effortless action while residing in the primordial state.

 

There are concepts similar to Wu Wei and 'abiding' in Hindu Karma yoga also as part of the yogic tradition.  This is described in detail in Bhagavad Gita.  Abiding does not mean that one does not engage in external action, because it is not possible to live without acting in the world outside.  The very act of breathing is action that goes on continuously when a person lives as Krishna points out in Gita.  When someone is in 'abiding' or residing state actions like breathing, eating, sleeping and other day to day activities go on.  Protecting oneself from harm (of any nature) is also part of this.

 

J. Krishnamurti is a big propent of the philosophy, 'just be', to just reside in the present moment.  This can easily be translated as not acting (doing nothing) when needed and to 'just be'.  Krishnamurti explains clearly in his teachings the 'just be' does not mean inaction or doing nothing when an action is prompted.  It means not to get caught up in 'mind stuff' while engaged in the right action outside.

[C T]

33 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Change is inevitable.  The manifest universe is always constantly in a state of flux.  Gautama Buddha advocated something against what you described.  The Hindu priests of his time opposed Buddha with similar arguments.  They wanted to follow what they believed as solid authentic and traditional teachings. Gautama Buddha's teachings were radical and against tradition at that time.  

 

Buddha taught us we should not accept anything at face value because it is traditional and  in my opinion this is a very valuable lesson.  I agree with the rest of what you stated.  There are gullible students and some so called teachers who take advantage of them.  But, an open and inquiring mind that is not rigid and locked with one belief system is very important.  We need to adapt and progress in this ever changing universe.

 

 

Its more fun to watch the "game" when the goalpost stays put. 

In a game, what keeps changing is the dynamic, the flows, the strategies.... all these are constantly changing. 

But one can imagine the frustration if part of the change involves moving the goalposts here and there to bend the flow

and strategies to one's advantage. So as the game progresses, it saps energy, and so one shifts nearer this goalpost. 

Is this the kind of adaptability and flexibility you mean? 

 

Contemplative traditions are not very much concerned with seeking advantages that way. Well, at least some aren't. 

And these are definitely not traditions that rely on beliefs, but that non-reliance does not imply being closeted and locked - 

on the contrary, they promote a particular type of freedom of enquiry, one guided by established, proven and systematic 

approaches. This is to avoid fuzzy traps, pitfalls, and at the same time, enable the practitioner to gain confidence in his

or her personal endeavour by relying on a trusted yardstick to determine progress. Its an arduous path, requiring 

dedication, devotion and discipline. Without being faithful to an established lineage or tradition is like engaging in a 

game where there are no fixed placements of goalposts, and an already challenging pursuit becomes even more 

precarious. Especially where one is unsure of the source to which one directs one's dedication, devotion and discipline. 

 

 

[s1va]

10 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Its more fun to watch the "game" when the goalpost stays put. 

In a game, what keeps changing is the dynamic, the flows, the strategies.... all these are constantly changing. 

But one can imagine the frustration if part of the change involves moving the goalposts here and there to bend the flow

and strategies to one's advantage. So as the game progresses, it saps energy, and so one shifts nearer this goalpost. 

Is this the kind of adaptability and flexibility you mean? 

 

Contemplative traditions are not very much concerned with seeking advantages that way. Well, at least some aren't. 

And these are definitely not traditions that rely on beliefs, but that non-reliance does not imply being closeted and locked - 

on the contrary, they promote a particular type of freedom of enquiry, one guided by established, proven and systematic 

approaches. This is to avoid fuzzy traps, pitfalls, and at the same time, enable the practitioner to gain confidence in his

or her personal endeavour by relying on a trusted yardstick to determine progress. Its an arduous path, requiring 

dedication, devotion and discipline. Without being faithful to an established lineage or tradition is like engaging in a 

game where there are no fixed placements of goalposts, and an already challenging pursuit becomes even more 

precarious. Especially where one is unsure of the source to which one directs one's dedication, devotion and discipline. 

 

 

 

My point was very simple.  Shutting down something just because it is not traditional may not be the right thing.

 

I have tremendous respect and gratitude for traditions and the contributions they have made for everyone's welfare.  This does not necessarily translate to say, I would reject things outside of traditions at face value just because they are not traditional.  This is what majority of people did to the teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha because it did not comply with their view of tradition and values, and in their view he moved the goal post.  The world is evolving, the human ability and the potential (to reach the goalpost) transforms from time to time.  

 

There are new turnings of wheel with great masters.  In my view teachings get refined over time. The refined teachings does not necessarily mean the goal post has moved.  The emptiness is always the same.  But, our potential and out abilities to reach that goalpost can refine over periods of time.  I believe with the advent of tantric teachings, the means and the ability to reach the goalpost became easier and refined for everyone.  More such refinements in our abilities are possible as we progress and evolve.  Let me illustrate this with an example.  At the time of Buddha, the only way to reach India by sea from Europe was to circle the continent of Africa.  This used to take several months.  Later the suez canal was opened and a much shorter path through middle-east was found.  Ships were able to reach India from Europe a month or few months earlier.  With the advent of planes, the travel is in hours instead of days or months.  The goalpost was always Europe to India.  But the methods the means refined over time.

 

Even within the Buddhist teachings, there are refinements like Mahayana and later the tantric teachings.  We can respect the traditions and at the same time be open to receive such refinements and make use of the new possibilities available to everyone.  Everyone needs to enquire and find the right thing that works for them.  The most important things in my view are the open mindedness and an inquiring mind open to new possibilities, without which there can be stagnation or outright rejection of new possibilities.  Yes, caution is needed to be on guard and not to fall for some dubious teachings that take advantage of people.  But this caution cannot translate into outright rejection of every teaching that does not rigidly confirm to what is set forth in traditions or scriptures.  Such outright rejection without investigation can be a loss to entire humanity.

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, steve said:

 

Thanks for the description.

 

 

Once again, I appreciate the effort, but unfortunately not.

You mentioned that it is not mind or the use of mind that creates problems, it is getting caught up in obstructions.

I asked if not mind, what is it that is getting caught up in obstruction?

Your responses really haven't touched on my question.

 

 

 

It is all you. Like tripping over your own feet. Or you could say an obscured version of your primordial being. Every sentient is like a bubbling up of primordial nothingness. What you see as the universe is more like an overlay transmission by what in Buddhism could be called the primordial Buddha.

[ilumairen]

47 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

It is all you. Like tripping over your own feet. Or you could say an obscured version of your primordial being. Every sentient is like a bubbling up of primordial nothingness. What you see as the universe is more like an overlay transmission by what in Buddhism could be called the primordial Buddha.

 

This makes no sense to me, the primordial Buddha part, as "overlay" implies obscuration, like tinted lenses one views the world through, and as I understand it, the primordial Buddha is "pristine".. 

 

And as set forth in one of those books I started an exploration of in my ppd, "overlay" is a concept which serves to "seperate" form from emptiness.

 

Edit to add: The "it's all you" seems to lend itself to what I'd best be able to label "hyper-identification," and as I'm presently reading it is rather "anti-dharma".

Edited August 3, 2019 by ilumairen

[ilumairen]

A short article on kuntu zangpo:

 

https://bonpo.wordpress.com/2009/07/20/homage-to-kuntu-zangpo/

[Jeff]

20 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

This makes no sense to me, the primordial Buddha part, as "overlay" implies obscuration, like tinted lenses one views the world through, and as I understand it, the primordial Buddha is "pristine".. 

 

And as set forth in one of those books I started an exploration of in my ppd, "overlay" is a concept which serves to "seperate" form from emptiness.

 

When a sentient being bubbles up into existence it forms many attachments (forming energy structures) as it grows into conscious awareness.  The overlay transmission (perceived universe) helps to stabilize the new bubbles.  If they do not become stable they ultimately cease and it is as they had never existed.  Form is never separate from the primordial, it is just a different layer of perception. Like a baby being born cant handle the raw data and be remain stable, but still always is primordial even though it may be obscured by the beings own issues/attachments.

 

 

[ilumairen]

So sentient beings are basically the farts of some strange primordial swamp? 

 

Love ya dude, and the most respectful I can be at the moment is in the walking away.

 

Hope you have a good weekend. 

 

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

It is all you. Like tripping over your own feet. Or you could say an obscured version of your primordial being. Every sentient is like a bubbling up of primordial nothingness. What you see as the universe is more like an overlay transmission by what in Buddhism could be called the primordial Buddha.

 

Got it, thanks.

In Dzogchen the experiential distinction between mind and Nature is extremely precise and the basis of all practice.

You seem to combine the two or not make that distinction. That must be related to the merge, I would guess.

 

 

 

 

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Got it, thanks.

In Dzogchen the experiential distinction between mind and Nature is extremely precise and the basis of all practice.

You seem to combine the two or not make that distinction. That must be related to the merge, I would guess.

 

 

Nothing related to the merge. If you attempting to differentiate it in someway, it would relate more to what I was calling the KS Siva aspect of the primordial. In a way, you could say that Siva = Universal Mind = Everything that exists + anything that has the potential to exist.

 

Words are kind of meaningless as it is all really more a direct knowing and beyond definitions of mind.  Like all of this stuff, it needs to be realized/experienced, it is not something that can be intellectually imputed. That is why being able to directly share it becomes so critical. The good news is that it can all be demonstrated and used, making it easy to prove your point.