Merging and guru yoga

[dwai]

if i may interject -- what jonesboy is saying is verifiable experientially. There is deep stillness, clarity etc that are realized with merges with deities. But I also agree with 3Bob when he says that all of these are still manifestations of the One without a second - the Nondual (Call it Self, Siva, etc etc). 

 

think of the "Universe" as a hologram

but there are different layers of the hologram

these layers exist in multiple frequencies

where humans normally operate is at a very low frequency

but being that non dual awareness, there is access to all frequencies

 

the way to access the higher frequencies is by dropping the limitations

that are self-imposed, as "I Am body, I am mind"

 

so when you drop the limitations you have access to higher frequencies

so different layers of this hologram

 

What I understand from merging is an expansion of the mind of the apparent individual seeker by merging with the mind of another apparent being that exists at a higher frequency realm (or has uninhibited access to all the layers up to a certain layer). 

 

So, it is a very real and practical thing -- merging. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by dwai
typo fix

[Jonesboy]

17 minutes ago, C T said:

From the standpoint of the mahayana/tantra scriptures, it is said nothing exists outside our own minds. Even Yeshe Tsogyal's master, Guru Padmasambhava, stressed this right from the beginning of his teachings. 

 

That is true, nothing does exist that isn't within me or as me.

 

How can you become one if you think otherwise?

 

Yet we are not just aspects of one being. We share an essence that is everything but even Buddhas are different from one another. That difference is powerful and the depth of clarity from me to a Buddha that I am connecting to within me can be amazing.

 

A merge isn't a going outside of oneself, a looking in the astral. It is all within.

[dwai]

Got this from prof. google --

 

https://www.lamayeshe.com/article/chapter/chapter-19-what-guru-yoga-excerpt

 

Quote

The real meaning of guru

In guru yoga, the essential point to understand is that all the buddhas are of one taste in the dharmakaya. The dharmakaya is the absolute guru, and this is all the buddhas. This is the very heart of guru yoga practice. Without understanding this there’s no way to practice guru yoga comfortably. Even if we do the visualizations it won’t be completely satisfactory because we’ll be unclear as to how buddha is the embodiment of the guru and the guru is the embodiment of buddha. However, it will be extremely clear if we understand the very heart of guru yoga, that the guru is buddha and buddha is the guru. 

We can integrate this understanding into our guru yoga practice by thinking in the following way. When we become enlightened, if there is one sentient being who can be guided by a manifestation of Tara, we will manifest in the aspect of Tara to guide that sentient being. Now, that Tara is the manifestation of all the Taras and all the other buddhas. It is not that there is a separate Tara with a separate mind who guides that particular sentient being and there are billions of other Taras who guide other sentient beings but not that particular one. 

When a sentient being is ready to be guided by an aspect of a buddha and be taught Dharma, the buddha who reveals the Dharma to them has to be all the other buddhas. Otherwise that sentient being would not be guided by all the buddhas but by some buddhas and not others. This way of thinking creates problems in the mind. When Manjushri or any other buddha guides us, that guidance is the guidance of all the buddhas and that manifestation is the manifestation of all the buddhas. 

In reality, even though there are numberless different aspects of buddhas, the holy mind of all the buddhas is one but appears in different aspects to guide us sentient beings, just as all the rivers that go into the ocean become one. 

The dharmakaya is like the ocean in which many waters are mixed and our various gurus are like drops from the ocean. All our gurus are manifestations of the dharmakaya, the absolute guru, the holy mind of all the buddhas; the absolute guru manifests in an ordinary form in accordance with the level of our karma. This ordinary form is the conventional guru, the essence of which is the absolute guru. 

When we actually see or visualize a deity or see statues or paintings of deities we should recognize that they are all the guru. There is no deity other than the guru.

 

In Advaita Vedanta tradition, we say "The Guru is none other than the Self" 

Edited January 12, 2018 by dwai

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Hi Apech,

 

If we are talking the Master and the student as you have described think about like this.

 

A=Master

B = Student

 

A has realized that they are that field which is all things to one degree or another.

B  has not had the same realization, realized that state of being.

 

A, knowing that he is not this form but really that light that essence as described above can become one with anything or anyone.

 

B, with the help of the master can merge with a Divine being or merge with the master.

 

Such merging is a very powerful means of removing obstructions that block our clarity of having such a realization. Because it is so powerful the student progresses quickly along the path.

 

So as the student progress, lets go of more and more junk he realizes that his nature is the same as the master or the deity.

 

It is really much like Guru Rinpoche describes:

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Why is it important to practice the yidam deity?

 

The master replied: It is essential to practice a yidam deity because through that you will attain siddhis, your obstacles will be removed, you will obtain powers, receive blessings, and give rise to realization. Since all qualities result from practicing the yidam deity, then without the yidam deity you will just be an ordinary person. By practicing the yidam deity you attain the siddhis, so the yidam deity is essential.

 

Instead of thinking of a yidam as mantra and visualization. Think more those Divine beings are real and any such connection or merging is a powerful thing. Of course that also depends on how open the student is and there relative depth and clarity.

 

This is also very intuitive.

 

2.  A + B somehow superimpose and attenuate to the max degree possible their 'skins'.

 

Think of A and B being two circles. Think of A as a bigger circle and B as a smaller circle. The size as representive of ones clarity or depth of realization.

 

When you merge A and B, B would fit inside of A is how we would normally think of this. Yet when one merges what is happening is A is filling in all of B. It is an expanding outwards of B. So it is very much like you said to the max degree possible their skins. The merging is actually with the support of the master or the deity helping you to expand what you thought was your max.

 

Or said a different way. Through the merging one experiences silence and energy flowing in them, as them or around them. That energy hits upon obstructions like any other energy practice. The silence from merging with such a being allows for the ease of letting go of issues. Because one is also being taken deeper or to higher levels of being with such a merge the process is very effective.

 

Thanks for this.

 

I get your fist example - though I don't agree with it - your second example is strange to me (but of course that may be my limited understanding of the process you are describing).  When you say A 'helps' B - how does this work?

 

With reference to your yidam practice you quote - neither of your examples is at all like yidam practice.  In this case I speak from experience.

[Jonesboy]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

Thanks for this.

 

I get your fist example - though I don't agree with it - your second example is strange to me (but of course that may be my limited understanding of the process you are describing).  When you say A 'helps' B - how does this work?

 

With reference to your yidam practice you quote - neither of your examples is at all like yidam practice.  In this case I speak from experience.

 

With regard to A helping B and working with Divine Beings a couple of ways can be used.

 

The first is to connect the student to his deity of choice. It is a powerful connection that is felt with the divine being.

 

Another method is for A to directly merge the divine being to B.

 

Another means is for B to use his connection to  A to merge into the divine being. Typically this results in a connection rather than a merge for B, but it is a means for B to directly access the divine in a much more powerful way than he could on his own and without A doing it for him.

 

With all of the above methods one can experience bliss, ecstasy, silence, energy in them, as them or around them. As well as love, tears of joy and a whole host of emotions and sensations.

 

There are other ways of A helping B but I think that gives us enough meat on the bone to chew on.

 

I would also agree that what I am describing is in no way Yidam Deity practices as described in any Buddhist texts.

 

Yet the insights and the results are the same. Dharma is Dharma just some of the means may be different.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Jonesboy

[3bob]

"the master replied: It is essential to practice a yidam deity because through that you will attain siddhis"....

 

even though further context is added to this sentence I'd say it is wrong to initially condition the subject in this way for if such is the motive then greater problems will probably take place...so it far more important to work towards attaining spiritual freedom, its related truth, and wisdom of compassion, during and after which any form of power (of will and mind) is used for such motives.  

   

[3bob]

the mind, our mind, their mind, is nothing more or less than a (wonderfully diverse) thing (or things).... 

no-thing knows that but not by mind. 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2018 by 3bob

[Jetsun]

So when a being is merging with another being what is merging with what ?

Obviously on a physical level the only thing approaching physical merge is sex, but that is a course level. 

Then on an emotional level people can merge whereby they take on others emotions , which is the most common type of merge which happens a lot in relationships especially in co-dependency , and with gurus, but that is a merge in neurosis in a way rather than anything healthy.

So deeper, can a soul merge with another soul?is it even desirable? .

At the ultimate level of basis, space, stillness, silence, doesn't even make sense as everything is already just as it is and merging doesn't alter that. 

 

[3bob]

well a comparative aspect on the matter between two individual beings would be a great connection...a connection that could share information, feelings/thoughts/knowledge and certain forms of energy of a quality and quantity at a speed of say a thousand or ten thousand times faster, meaning what might take a life time of study, good fortune and evolution in understanding could transpire in say 7 minutes...

Edited January 13, 2018 by 3bob

[Jonesboy]

4 hours ago, 3bob said:

"the master replied: It is essential to practice a yidam deity because through that you will attain siddhis"....

 

even though further context is added to this sentence I'd say it is wrong to initially condition the subject in this way for if such is the motive then greater problems will probably take place...so it far more important to work towards attaining spiritual freedom, its related truth, and wisdom of compassion, during and after which any form of power (of will and mind) is used for such motives.  

   

 

I would agree.

 

Any such desire is exactly what will stop you from achieving the siddhi. 

 

I think anyone who meditates could relate.

[Jonesboy]

1 hour ago, Jetsun said:

So when a being is merging with another being what is merging with what ?

Obviously on a physical level the only thing approaching physical merge is sex, but that is a course level. 

Then on an emotional level people can merge whereby they take on others emotions , which is the most common type of merge which happens a lot in relationships especially in co-dependency , and with gurus, but that is a merge in neurosis in a way rather than anything healthy.

So deeper, can a soul merge with another soul?is it even desirable? .

At the ultimate level of basis, space, stillness, silence, doesn't even make sense as everything is already just as it is and merging doesn't alter that. 

 

 

Then why do any sort of meditation or system of practices if it is “already just as it is”?

 

Because they help us realize deeper and deeper what that really means.

[Fa Xin]

5 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Then why do any sort of meditation or system of practices if it is “already just as it is”?

 

Because they help us realize deeper and deeper what that really means.

Well said, thanks. 

[C T]

6 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Then why do any sort of meditation or system of practices if it is “already just as it is”?

 

 

 

In Mahayana Buddhism all the way up to Mahamudra & Dzogchen, it is said that the natural state is like a newborn baby in those who take up the practice as beginners, and meditation is a necessary spiritual nourishment, but yet there is no requirement to perform analytics each time one meditates in order to 'grow and develop' the natural state, just like there is no need to analyse and detail each feed that is given to a newborn baby. Just continue the feeding as a natural and necessary action to perform, and leave the growing to manifest in its own natural way, effortlessly. Needless to say we all know what the repercussions will be if the feeding is denied or withdrawn. In the same way, this is the main reason we meditate. In Tibetan language there isn't actually a direct translation for 'Meditation' - the term they use is 'Gom', which literally means, 'Getting used to'. So meditation is nothing other than the prime way to get used to the non-interference (with egoic taints) that is a vital aspect for allowing the natural state to gradually reveal itself and eventually shine through the clouds of dualistic habit-patterns and delusional sense dependencies. 

 

A key difference between Vajrayana and other systems then is that the budding practitioner will have been introduced and given a clear glimpse of what the natural state really is, and continuing practice is simply the means to give and to gain stability to what is commonly known as 'The View', and nothing else really. The prescribed approach is the encouragement to recognise the essential inseparability of this view and our true nature, rather than to cultivate one with an attitude of enjoining one state with another. Hence the emphasis in Vajrayana is not one of merging A to B - rather, it is to gain recognition that both A and B dependently arises, and therefore, both are fundamentally form & emptiness co-emerging and co-dissipating simultaneously. Gaining this understanding is very helpful because it is extremely empowering. 

[doc benway]

Intersting discussion.

 

My own experience of guru yoga is not that of a merger of my mind with the mind of another or even with the essence.

My mind has never been separate from its essence for an instant, like a wave has never been separate from the ocean, but the awareness of that essence is blocked by the very mind itself - discursive thought, grasping at form and formless, and so on...

 

In guru yoga, the mind is liberated and pristine awareness rests in its own place, that is to say that awareness and emptiness abide as inseparable, abiding as bliss.

This is resting in the Nature of Mind, it is nothing other than the nature of primordial Buddhahood.

 

For me, guru yoga is better described as a liberation of mind and a return to the source. 

Merger has an implication of a mixing or blending, a coalescence which retains elements of what is being merged.

Union with the primordial Buddha, which is resting in the Nature of Mind, retains nothing.

While the potential is there for all arising, the essence itself is stainless, allowing all to spontaneously liberate, leaving nothing but primordial purity and clarity.

It is like tossing paint into the air, nothing sticks.

 

There are several classical examples that are used to describe this.

The Nature of Mind is like the lotus flower which blossoms in mud and yet remains pure and unstained.

It is like a mirror which hosts all reflections without bias but is untouched and unchanged by anything it reflects.

It is like a crystal, clear and transparent, in which nothing is hidden.

In that space, what is there to merge or separate?

 

Not sure if my words are of any value.

I also don't defend them as being philosophically correct.

Just musings of a mediocre practitioner.

[Jetsun]

19 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Then why do any sort of meditation or system of practices if it is “already just as it is”?

 

Because they help us realize deeper and deeper what that really means.

 

Ok, but you didn't answer what it is that is merging? Is it mind, emotions, energy, soul?

 

The deepest aspect of your being is already merged with what is, beyond separation. If two beings merge with one another there is still the rest of the universe which is other, and therefore two things still going on, therefore a merge isn't non-duality in any ultimate sense.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Jetsun

[Apech]

On 1/13/2018 at 2:32 AM, Jonesboy said:

 

Then why do any sort of meditation or system of practices if it is “already just as it is”?

 

Because they help us realize deeper and deeper what that really means.

 

Just for clarity - (from Wiki)

 

 

Quote

 

Mahāmudrā is sometimes divided into four distinct phases known as the four yogas of mahāmudrā (S. catvāri mahāmudrā yoga, Wylie: phyag rgya chen po'i rnal 'byor bzhi). They are as follows:^[19]

1. one-pointedness (S. ekāgra, T. rtse gcig)
2. simplicity (S. niṣprapāncha, T. spros bral) "free from complexity" or "not elaborate."
3. one taste (S. samarasa, T. ro gcig)
4. non-meditation (S. abhāvanā, sgom med) The state of not holding to either an object of meditation nor to a meditator. Nothing further needs to be 'meditated upon' or 'cultivated at this stage.^{[note 2]}

 

1.  

 

[dwai]

16 hours ago, Jetsun said:

 

Ok, but you didn't answer what it is that is merging? Is it mind, emotions, energy, soul?

 

The deepest aspect of your being is already merged with what is, beyond separation. If two beings merge with one another there is still the rest of the universe which is other, and therefore two things still going on, therefore a merge isn't non-duality in any ultimate sense.

That which merges is the mind. There is still apparent separation of one mind from another (in perception of the neophyte especially). And there are degrees of conscious cognition of the apparent separation (or lack thereof). It is like lighting a flame from an existing fire. 

 

There are two different approaches as I've seen. One is to abide in pure awareness being (I AM)  and let the universe literally melt away. The other is to expand the mind beyond the limitations of the body-mind into infinite conscious awareness. I think both are valid paths and are mutually complementary. The former helps realize the emptiness of the limited self (or uncover the Self). The latter helps actively realize the Oneness of all appearances. 

 

[C T]

If I were a teacher, i will never propose the idea of merging to anyone because I see that having a sense of contraction or apparent turmoil is a result not of any real separation but simply due to a misapprehension of what is fundamentally not-two/not-one. Perhaps it will be more appropriate to speak of integration and reconciliation, of grooming the mind and sharpening awareness to point towards being mindful of dualistic tendencies, but all these do not in any way suggest that there is some type of merger involved. I think that it is important to find a valid premise, for those who favour this concept of merging - my opinion is that since the basis is already non-separate, then it follows that any proposed philosophical argument can only be validated from the view of original inseparability. If one makes a proposal in support of merging, then the logical assumption is that this individual does not ascribe to the concept of primordially pure (mind) nature, if this makes any sense. 

Edited January 14, 2018 by C T
removal of an 's'

[Fa Xin]

Is the goal of certain meditations to clear away obstructions ?

 

Thats all merging does, is help clears away obstructions.

 

Each time I merge with a being, I am less bound to my body, my sense of self. I kind of “release” into them and feel “fa xin” melting away. 

 

Thats just my own experience. I’m not very good debating semantics or traditions. 

[3bob]

I'm not a Buddhist but a short and partial take to me on the Tibetan Wheel of Life drawing is that it depicts the various realms of mind and the related states of being that go with same....along with the freedom of "essence" that is also directly alluded to throughout as the Buddha.  Anyway, the variety of Beings in the drawing can make various degrees of connection with each other and thus share information, knowledge, thoughts and feelings related to their respective realms of mind and their state of being;  (I don't think many would disagree with that statement)  but a particular being can not remain in one realm of mind and state of being and also "merge" or be in another at the same time because they would then be a different or changed being.  Thus "merging" in that sense is not possible although a change in state of being within the wheel is.  Further, the secret right under the noses of all the particular beings depicted is that the essence is already there throughout all of them and by being free of binding to particular areas in the wheel they will then merge-which is to realize the essence which already is and already merged and free throughout all of them in all of the realms. (and also beyond realms at the same time)  

[C T]

37 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Is the goal of certain meditations to clear away obstructions ?

 

Thats all merging does, is help clears away obstructions.

 

Each time I merge with a being, I am less bound to my body, my sense of self. I kind of “release” into them and feel “fa xin” melting away. 

 

Thats just my own experience. I’m not very good debating semantics or traditions. 

 

What works for you is exactly what you need at this particular juncture. 

 

If one has a sense that obstructions are real, and have a deep sense that they are in some way presenting obstacles towards spiritual advancement, then that is exactly what needs to be worked upon in order to reach some kind of transcendence - no amount of debate will help.. its just something one has to experience, and move forward from there if possible. 

 

However, there are those who recognise that obstructions are, like everything else, mere mental fabrications, arising in dependence on the force of habitual inclinations, and which in fact has no locality nor substantiality. Since this group believe, and hopefully conclude through proper insight, that everything arise and subside in the mind, including the idea of 'Beings of light out there', then it follows that a concept such as 'actual merging' has no basis in truth, and its usefulness is limited to expedient spiritual exercises to dissolve the rigidly-held mental frames of reference which can be useful to those who cannot accept that there are other 'quicker' ways to reach the same unbounded sense of total release (from bondage, I would assume). 

Edited January 14, 2018 by C T

[Fa Xin]

57 minutes ago, C T said:

 

What works for you is exactly what you need at this particular juncture. 

 

If one has a sense that obstructions are real, and have a deep sense that they are in some way presenting obstacles towards spiritual advancement, then that is exactly what needs to be worked upon in order to reach some kind of transcendence - no amount of debate will help.. its just something one has to experience, and move forward from there if possible. 

 

However, there are those who recognise that obstructions are, like everything else, mere mental fabrications, arising in dependence on the force of habitual inclinations, and which in fact has no locality nor substantiality. Since this group believe, and hopefully conclude through proper insight, that everything arise and subside in the mind, including the idea of 'Beings of light out there', then it follows that a concept such as 'actual merging' has no basis in truth, and its usefulness is limited to expedient spiritual exercises to dissolve the rigidly-held mental frames of reference which can be useful to those who cannot accept that there are other 'quicker' ways to reach the same unbounded sense of total release (from bondage, I would assume). 

I guess I am not at that level yet, as I still get caught up in issues 😊

[C T]

2 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

I guess I am not at that level yet, as I still get caught up in issues 😊

 

Its not a level really. But i have a clue how the idea of levels comes about. 

[Jeff]

Lot of fun reading this thread everyone. Thanks.  

[dawei]

ok... I have an opinion !  

 

There is no A or B.. even forget about C and D... forget I told you to forget.... but if you read on... forget that I told you to forget.

 

3Bob lays out the logical reasoning that there is no separation... while he mentioned a guru takes one to a true essence, I might agree this is pre-no-separation understanding... once into 'no-separation' (some might call non-dual), there is no guru... no true essence.. except what words make of them.

 

It is like sleeping when injured; you feel no pain when asleep.  When you awake, you feel pain.

 

Let me ask: When you wake up to no-separation, what do you find?

 

Another question:  when awake to the realization to no-separation, what do you do?

 

I think this thread was about merge stuff...  if there is not separation, then we are all, always merged... what is the issue ?