Merging and guru yoga

[3bob]

Btw, there are dangers in idealistic ideas about merging with a powerful being, for instance imagine a sea creature suddenly coming out of the water and forcing itself to try and merge with a fire; thus help from a powerful being given by the wisdom of such a being as to what is needed is one thing, but if one idealistically throws themselves at such a being to merge there could be problems... 

[Fa Xin]

1 hour ago, 3bob said:

Btw, there are dangers in idealistic ideas about merging with a powerful being, for instance imagine a sea creature suddenly coming out of the water and forcing itself to try and merge with a fire; thus help from a powerful being given by the wisdom of such a being as to what is needed is one thing, but if one idealistically throws themselves at such a being to merge there could be problems... 

In my experience, most people can’t pull off a full merge... instead you get a “connection” (which is powerful in its own right). I’ve done merges many times, and sometimes I’ll only get a partial merge or connection (for whatever reason). 

 

But if you have trust in said being, what’s there to worry about ? Any specifics as to the dangers?

[Apech]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

Speaking of assumptions, there are other interpretations of the first line of the TTC ch 10 which don't assume 'merging' is being described: 

J Legge

When the intelligent and animal souls are held together in one embrace, they can be kept from separating. 

 

Derek Linn

In holding to your inner essence and embracing the oneness of your being, can your mind avoid being distracted, and thus going astray?

 

Matsumoto

Forget the separation between your mind and body. Remember you are Tao. Don't forget it. 

 

Can a text which is clearly open to interpretation be used to exclusively support a particular interpretation and method?

 

 

 

 

 

 

To be honest I usually avoid discussion of the TTC because I think unless you completely immerse yourself in Daoist thought then it is the sort of text which can bear all kinds of interpretation.  In this case I did find some online resources which allow some degree of examination of the original Chinese terms ( http://ctext.org/dao-de-jing and http://www.egreenway.com/taoism/ttclz10.htm).  It seems to me the text is talking about unifying the parts of your being, specifically the hun and po souls - then it goes on to talk about 'softening' the breath/qi.  It sounds like at least a nod towards Nei Dan - but of course a big time gap before that explicitly emerged.

 

Part of the issue is whether it is talking about unifying by integrating parts of beings (hun and po) or if it is suggesting union with, merging with the One.  As you can see the various translators are split on this - some saying just 'unify' and others talking about the One.   It could be argued that without the oneness which comes from Dao it would be impossible to unify anyway.

 

I don't really see anything in this which relates to 'merging' and I don't know if Daoism has such an idea - although obviously there is the idea of 'following' or harmonising with the way.  What is Chinese term for merging?  If they had it as a major concept then there must be a term for it.

 

I know that late Yi Jing commentaries talk about 'the One' which comes from Dao and begets two and so forth.  But it all sounds very neo-Platonic to talk about 'the One' with which you can merge.

 

Anyway my thoughts.

[doc benway]

21 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

When a teacher/guru in your tradition introduces you to a “state of Rigpa” (or primordial purity) what does he or she do? Is it simply an intellectual description for the person?

 

No, not simply an intellectual description.

The tradition I follow is old and complex. 

There are many methods of introduction among the 3 dzogchen lineages in our tradition.

Not being a master or teacher of this tradition myself, I can only speak to what I've been exposed to.

 

There is a role for intellectual description and this comes out in the teachings from the various tantras.

There are also conceptual examples that are traditionally offered which point to different principles or characteristics of the state.

Here are six classic examples:

It is like a butter lamp - self-illuminated, dispelling the darkness of ignorance

Like a lotus - unstained and primordially pure, arising in the mud and yet untainted

Like the sun - shining from the beginning of time, without beginning or end

Like a mirror - able to host anything without bias and yet untouched by whatever arises

Like a crystal egg - transparent and clear, hiding nothing

Like the sky - without center or boundary, allowing and embracing everything, excluding nothing

 

There is guided meditation.

The teacher guides the student like an experienced tour guide.

After guided meditation there are the questions and discussions that allow us to clarify our experience, hear the experience of others, and receive feedback from the teacher which brings us closer.

 

There are independent meditative exercises and practices.

One of the most effective in our tradition is referred to as zhiné or calm abiding.

It comes from the A-Khrid Dzogchen lineage.

It is like shamtha and vipassana combined and is practiced by focusing attention on the Tibetan letter A.

It is in these practices where we have the opportunity to identify the basis and develop confidence and certainty in the view.

 

There is the conduct, simply being in the presence of a realized master has enormous value.

Watching, listening, feeling, interacting - all of it guides us closer.

 

There are signs - qualities and changes that we see in ourselves that indicate we have correctly identified the view, meditation, and conduct, and are an indication that we're headed in the right direction.

 

So the introduction is a mutual endeavor and goes far beyond a simple passing of information. The teacher can do quite a bit to guide us to the source but at the end of the day it is up to us, we must bring the experience into our own lives and allow it to touch us and take root in our hearts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, steve said:

 

No, not simply an intellectual description.

The tradition I follow is old and complex. 

There are many methods of introduction among the 3 dzogchen lineages in our tradition.

Not being a master or teacher of this tradition myself, I can only speak to what I've been exposed to.

 

There is a role for intellectual description and this comes out in the teachings from the various tantras.

There are also conceptual examples that are traditionally offered which point to different principles or characteristics of the state.

Here are six classic examples:

It is like a butter lamp - self-illuminated, dispelling the darkness of ignorance

Like a lotus - unstained and primordially pure, arising in the mud and yet untainted

Like the sun - shining from the beginning of time, without beginning or end

Like a mirror - able to host anything without bias and yet untouched by whatever arises

Like a crystal egg - transparent and clear, hiding nothing

Like the sky - without center or boundary, allowing and embracing everything, excluding nothing

 

There is guided meditation.

The teacher guides the student like an experienced tour guide.

After guided meditation there are the questions and discussions that allow us to clarify our experience, hear the experience of others, and receive feedback from the teacher which brings us closer.

 

There are independent meditative exercises and practices.

One of the most effective in our tradition is referred to as zhiné or calm abiding.

It comes from the A-Khrid Dzogchen lineage.

It is like shamtha and vipassana combined and is practiced by focusing attention on the Tibetan letter A.

It is in these practices where we have the opportunity to identify the basis and develop confidence and certainty in the view.

 

There is the conduct, simply being in the presence of a realized master has enormous value.

Watching, listening, feeling, interacting - all of it guides us closer.

 

There are signs - qualities and changes that we see in ourselves that indicate we have correctly identified the view, meditation, and conduct, and are an indication that we're headed in the right direction.

 

So the introduction is a mutual endeavor and goes far beyond a simple passing of information. The teacher can do quite a bit to guide us to the source but at the end of the day it is up to us, we must bring the experience into our own lives and allow it to touch us and take root in our hearts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you very much for sharing. But to your knowledge it is all oral or written learning activities by the student (and or teacher)?  You would agree with CT’s description, and there is really not any “merging” like activities as the OP suggests? Direct introduction to you means explain and talk about, not really directly show or immerse?

 

Again, I do not mean any disparagement with the questions, just trying to show the differences.

[Jeff]

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

Speaking of assumptions, there are other interpretations of the first line of the TTC ch 10 which don't assume 'merging' is being described: 

J Legge

When the intelligent and animal souls are held together in one embrace, they can be kept from separating. 

 

Derek Linn

In holding to your inner essence and embracing the oneness of your being, can your mind avoid being distracted, and thus going astray?

 

Matsumoto

Forget the separation between your mind and body. Remember you are Tao. Don't forget it. 

 

Can a text which is clearly open to interpretation be used to exclusively support a particular interpretation and method?

 

 

Your examples highlight the issues of why simply reading the “written” text is insufficient and not effective for many traditions. Words can become meaningless without having a teacher to show you what they mean. For many, the TTC is nothing but an intellectual philosophy, rather than an enlightened spiritual treatise.

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, 3bob said:

Btw, there are dangers in idealistic ideas about merging with a powerful being, for instance imagine a sea creature suddenly coming out of the water and forcing itself to try and merge with a fire; thus help from a powerful being given by the wisdom of such a being as to what is needed is one thing, but if one idealistically throws themselves at such a being to merge there could be problems... 

 

As Fa Xin touches on, there is no such danger with “merging”, but a true merge is extremely rare, and I think everyone is confusing what I call connecting with merging. With connecting, I would agree that there are potential risks. Even when connecting with divine beings (Buddha’s or immortals) they are perceived as also having “wrathful” sides. Blissful when you release the issue/fears in working with the being, wrathful feeling when you hold on to it. Additionally, with connecting one often is accessing some Spirit or other still ego based being. 

[3bob]

dangers:

a person sun bathes on a nice day at sea level for an hour without damaging his eyes or body, he then figures he can do the same for longer periods at higher elevations with only minor preparation with some minor side effects but much greater benefit being that he is hopeful regardless of anything else, besides the warmth and light are wonderful!  So more is better and that person next gets into a space ship (astral form) and flys it directly into the sun to try and merge with it for the full benefit... (and sure enough the single atom of sun element in him does not burn but unexpected to him the rest of him very painfully does)

Edited January 16, 2018 by 3bob

[Jonesboy]

15 minutes ago, 3bob said:

dangers:

a person sun bathes on a nice day at sea level for an hour without damaging his eyes or body, he then figures he can do the same for longer periods at higher elevations with only minor preparation with some minor side effects but much greater benefit being that he is hopeful regardless of anything else, besides the warmth and light are wonderful!  So more is better and that person next gets into a space ship (astral form) and flys it directly into the sun to try and merge with it for the full benefit... (and sure enough the single atom of sun element in him does not burn but unexpected to him the rest of him very painfully does)

 

3bob,

 

That is a lot of speculation about see monsters and space ships.

 

If you are still in the astral you are far from doing anything like merging. Seeing is not the same as being.

 

Also, per your one essence...

 

How can you realize you are the ocean if you are afraid to leave the wading pool? Eventually you have to realize that all such fears are of the mind.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Jonesboy

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

3bob,

 

That is a lot of speculation about see monsters and space ships.

 

If you are still in the astral you are far from doing anything like merging. Seeing is not the same as being.

 

Also, per your one essence...

 

How can you realize you are the ocean if you are afraid to leave the wading pool? Eventually you have to realize that all such fears are of the mind.

 

'see monsters' - ha ha.

 

 

[3bob]

why do spiritual orders have all sorts of preparation, why do yogis, masters, etc. of same spend years, decades and lifetimes in training for the changes to come to handle the greater voltages and amperages - go figure besides impressionable and idealistic hopes...(which any true guru would temper and protect against)

Edited January 16, 2018 by 3bob

[Jonesboy]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

'see monsters' - ha ha.

 

 

 

Sorry,

 

I am really under the weather and shouldn't be typing, posting or doing much of anything at the moment.

[Jonesboy]

5 minutes ago, 3bob said:

why do spiritual orders have all sorts of preparation, why do yogis of same spend years, decades and lifetimes in training for the changes to come to handle the greater voltages and amperages - go figure....

 

Because it takes some that long to progress.

 

It isn't about being able to handle greater voltages, it is realizing you are that energy.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Jonesboy

[Apech]

1 minute ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Sorry,

 

I am really under the weather and shouldn't be typing, posting or doing much of anything at the moment.

 

 

I was laughing with you not at you.

 

'See monsters and die' - I thought.

[Jonesboy]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

 

I was laughing with you not at you.

 

'See monsters and die' - I thought.

 

I know Apech.

 

Thank you

[3bob]

sounds to me like some think that being conceptually in the know qualifies them for more than they know, but I don't know that about anyone for sure, besides there are certain built in protections that are not gotten around easily although various types of accidents do happen.

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, 3bob said:

sounds to me like some think that being conceptually in the know qualifies them for more than they know, but I don't know that about anyone for sure, besides there are certain built in protections that are not gotten around easily although various types of accidents do happen.

 

Agree on the concept of built in protections to some extent. The problem is really bad when people try to use drugs or other substances in an attempt to bypass those built in protections.  Then you can get into some really serious issues, and maybe find some truly "negative" stuff.

 

But, in general, such techniques are very advanced and one cannot really do them unless they "know".

[Jeff]

Getting back to the original OP, does anyone think that Buddhist guru yoga does anything directly/energetically/connecting/merging?  Or, is it more about reading, discussing, individual practices and having a good teacher/guru example to follow?

 

Thanks.

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Getting back to the original OP, does anyone think that Buddhist guru yoga does anything directly/energetically/connecting/merging?  Or, is it more about reading, discussing, individual practices and having a good teacher/guru example to follow?

 

Thanks.

 

 

It is beyond all of those things.

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Thank you very much for sharing. But to your knowledge it is all oral or written learning activities by the student (and or teacher)?  You would agree with CT’s description, and there is really not any “merging” like activities as the OP suggests? Direct introduction to you means explain and talk about, not really directly show or immerse?

 

Again, I do not mean any disparagement with the questions, just trying to show the differences.

 

Direct introduction means using whatever tools are necessary to insure that the student has a personal experience of, or at least a glimpse, of the mind and its essence. As far as I am aware, our tradition teaches that one person cannot show or immerse another in the nature of mind. It is something an individual must do for themselves with appropriate guidance and feedback. The primary tool is personal practice and the primary practice in our tradition is zhiné. Zhiné is used to introduce the neophyte to the mind and its essence. It is also used for developing certainty, confidence, and stability in resting there. Explaining and talking is a valuable support but is secondary to the experience. There are also many non-verbal, non-conceptual transmissions that occur between teacher and student that I alluded to above but I'm not aware of any teachings in our tradition that suggest that one person can cause another to experience the essence of mind directly. I base this on direct teachings on the Nature of Mind that I've received from multiple Bön teachers, including the recently deceased Menri Trizin - head of the faith.

 

To comment on "merging like activities" I'd need to understand a bit more about what you mean by that. At this point I'm not sure what OP you're referring to as I think this was split from another thread. In our tradition, union with the guru occurs at the level of dharmakaya. At that level, it is meaningless to discuss merging as there are no formations to merge or separate. As I mentioned earlier, the process is more one of release and liberation.

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Getting back to the original OP, does anyone think that Buddhist guru yoga does anything directly/energetically/connecting/merging?  Or, is it more about reading, discussing, individual practices and having a good teacher/guru example to follow?

 

Thanks.

 

Yes, guru yoga is very energetically direct and is all about connecting.

I personally think the word merge is not the most accurate in this case for the reasons I note above.

The connection is with the dharmakaya, the basis.

It is solely experiential and needs to be done by each individual.

No one can do it for another.

Reading, discussing, and having a good teacher are all valuable supports but not of those are guru yoga.

Personal practice leads to having direct experience and insight.

Having that direct, personal insight is ultimately what is necessary to experience the mind's nature, correctly identify that with certainty, and develop stability there.

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Direct introduction means using whatever tools are necessary to insure that the student has a personal experience of, or at least a glimpse, of the mind and its essence. As far as I am aware, our tradition teaches that one person cannot show or immerse another in the nature of mind. It is something an individual must do for themselves with appropriate guidance and feedback. The primary tool is personal practice and the primary practice in our tradition is zhiné. Zhiné is used to introduce the neophyte to the mind and its essence. It is also used for developing certainty, confidence, and stability in resting there. Explaining and talking is a valuable support but is secondary to the experience. There are also many non-verbal, non-conceptual transmissions that occur between teacher and student that I alluded to above but I'm not aware of any teachings in our tradition that suggest that one person can cause another to experience the essence of mind directly. I base this on direct teachings on the Nature of Mind that I've received from multiple Bön teachers, including the recently deceased Menri Trizin - head of the faith.

...

 

Thank you very much for your responses, but they raise more questions...

 

You stated that..."There are also many non-verbal, non-conceptual transmissions that occur between teacher and student" and also "Yes, guru yoga is very energetically direct and is all about connecting." So what is being "transmitted"? And are you also saying that a buddhist teacher forms an energetic connection to the student?  What is the purpose of such a connection if it is not possible to help with the realization?

[rainbowvein]

8 hours ago, 3bob said:

Btw, there are dangers in idealistic ideas about merging with a powerful being, for instance imagine a sea creature suddenly coming out of the water and forcing itself to try and merge with a fire; thus help from a powerful being given by the wisdom of such a being as to what is needed is one thing, but if one idealistically throws themselves at such a being to merge there could be problems... 

 

Very creative scenario  and muchly agree with the end of your post, @3bob.

Edited January 16, 2018 by rainbowvein

[Miroku]

19 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Thank you very much for your responses, but they raise more questions...

 

You stated that..."There are also many non-verbal, non-conceptual transmissions that occur between teacher and student" and also "Yes, guru yoga is very energetically direct and is all about connecting." So what is being "transmitted"? And are you also saying that a buddhist teacher forms an energetic connection to the student?  What is the purpose of such a connection if it is not possible to help with the realization?

What is being transmitted is the knowledge of the state of guru yoga and the practice. No energetical connection is there. The main connection is that you have transmission of the practice and you become part of the lineage that carries a blessing. If you develop that knowledge (it doesn't mean you have to get it the first time, but the seed is there) and work with the transmission (by practicing and therefore developing the knowledge or discovering it) then the blessings will appear and you will attain buddhahood sooner or later. That is my limited understanding.

[Jeff]

7 minutes ago, Miroku said:

What is being transmitted is the knowledge of the state of guru yoga and the practice. No energetical connection is there. The main connection is that you have transmission of the practice and you become part of the lineage that carries a blessing. If you develop that knowledge (it doesn't mean you have to get it the first time, but the seed is there) and work with the transmission (by practicing and therefore developing the knowledge or discovering it) then the blessings will appear and you will attain buddhahood sooner or later. That is my limited understanding.

 

You seem to be saying something different than Steve regarding no energy connection. Is the "transmission" simply the knowledge/teachings of a specific group/lineage? Or do you get more "stuff" like the blessings you say that will appear? Like what kind of things are "blessings"?