Merging and guru yoga

[doc benway]

9 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

Hi Steve,

 

I haven’t meditated in years. More meditation and life are one and the same. It’s all about being at this point.

 

Please feel free to describe what ones True Nature as you have experienced it is like within any tradition or mixture that you wish.

 

Mark, I would love your input as well.

 

Thank you both.

 

Thanks for the reply.

How best to describe the indescribable? 

 

Many great masters have tried and do a far better job than I ever could.

I particularly like the indirect pointing we find in the advice of the Bönpo Masters of the Zhangzhung Nyengyud, Longchenpa, Chan and Zen poetry, that of Shabkar, Milarepa, and Rumi! Direct descriptions can sound trite and recycled. The words are far too cheap and small. Nevertheless, I'll share some personal impressions for what they're worth.

 

Sitting and resting, I watch thoughts come.

I notice the body, the emotions, the senses...

Not following, not refusing... allowing and opening; they soon loosen and depart.

I rest in the spaciousness, stillness, and silence that remains.

Luminous, immediate, and vivid, yet utterly clear and transparent.

Resting deeper and looking back at the one who is resting, "I" loosens and falls away like a silk robe.

Form is there, I let go... I am not that.

And yet I am not other than that...

I rest deeper.

Thought is there, I continue to let go.

I rest deeper, wider, fully open.

Identification loosens further and floats away like fine mist before a strong breeze.

Looking back at the one who is looking, no one is there.

What is left is timeless, unborn and undying, pervasive, perfect, and instantly present.

Complete and yet empty of all identification and substance.

The body can move, clear presence is undisturbed.

The voice speaks yet silence is there.

Thoughts and emotions come, abide, and depart - nothing there to hold them.

Like painting figures in air, the sky is untouched.

Clear presence aware of its empty nature remains.

[Jonesboy]

Thank you both.

 

13 hours ago, steve said:

 

Thanks for the reply.

How best to describe the indescribable? 

 

Many great masters have tried and do a far better job than I ever could.

I particularly like the indirect pointing we find in the advice of the Bönpo Masters of the Zhangzhung Nyengyud, Longchenpa, Chan and Zen poetry, that of Shabkar, Milarepa, and Rumi! Direct descriptions can sound trite and recycled. The words are far too cheap and small. Nevertheless, I'll share some personal impressions for what they're worth.

 

Sitting and resting, I watch thoughts come.

I notice the body, the emotions, the senses...

Not following, not refusing... allowing and opening; they soon loosen and depart.

I rest in the spaciousness, stillness, and silence that remains.

Luminous, immediate, and vivid, yet utterly clear and transparent.

Resting deeper and looking back at the one who is resting, "I" loosens and falls away like a silk robe.

Form is there, I let go... I am not that.

And yet I am not other than that...

I rest deeper.

Thought is there, I continue to let go.

I rest deeper, wider, fully open.

Identification loosens further and floats away like fine mist before a strong breeze.

Looking back at the one who is looking, no one is there.

What is left is timeless, unborn and undying, pervasive, perfect, and instantly present.

Complete and yet empty of all identification and substance.

The body can move, clear presence is undisturbed.

The voice speaks yet silence is there.

Thoughts and emotions come, abide, and depart - nothing there to hold them.

Like painting figures in air, the sky is untouched.

Clear presence aware of its empty nature remains.

 

May I ask you to go into more detail on these aspects.

 

"I rest in the spaciousness, stillness, and silence that remains.

Luminous, immediate, and vivid, yet utterly clear and transparent."

 

As well as...

 

"

Like painting figures in air, the sky is untouched.

Clear presence aware of its empty nature remains."

 

That sounds more like one has touched deep silence or is this also where thoughts don't matter as they just float on by un-attaching. Is there anything more than silence?

 

Also, does ones empty nature include ones body as you go about your day?

Edited January 29, 2018 by Jonesboy

[Jonesboy]

15 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Jonesboy, my guess is that you do something else, if you don't sit--dance, walk, play ping pong--something with concentration, am I right?  Myself, I sit and walk, I dance when my feet are moved, and I play the guitar when I feel inspired to do so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Mark,

 

No, concentration is not something that I have to work on.

 

As described earlier, concentration practices would be a preliminary practice.

 

I have found the Dao to be real and not a concept and when looking for others, I look within.

 

What is not me or within me?

 

I was hoping for a description of ones True Nature as experienced by members here.

 

I have found that what is ones True Nature can be another's muddled mind.

 

Kinda like the arguments that have gone on about how the Witness is Rigpa in other threads.

 

All the best,

 

Tom

 

[3bob]

more details can often be like more Chinese finger traps... 

and at the end of the day remaining in such traps does not help when one needs (their fingers)

to eat a meal.

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by 3bob

[Jonesboy]

7 minutes ago, 3bob said:

more details can often be like more Chinese finger traps... 

and at the end of the day remaining in such traps does not help when one needs to eat a meal.

 

 

But they help one know where another is along the process

 

Having experienced everything Steve has mentioned is me trying to figure out where he is at and with his Buddhist background equate that to Buddhist thought.

 

For instance, the gap between thoughts is not emptiness, Rigpa is not the Witness and Form/Light is more than just something we feel or reside in.

 

Not everything is scary, bad or a trap 3bob.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Jonesboy

[3bob]

trying to figure out or nail down "Steve" in the way you mention is a fools game.  It is also a fools game to try and figure out a True guru in such a way,  fortunately gurus are often compassionate about such things, although "compassion" may not immediately be in the eye of the beholder.   

[Jonesboy]

1 minute ago, 3bob said:

trying to figure out or nail down "Steve" in the way you mention is a fools game.  It is also a fools game to try and figure out a True guru in such a way,  fortunately gurus are often compassionate about such things, although "compassion" may not immediately be in the eye of the beholder.   

 

Sounds good.

 

Should I say that what he has described is not ones True Nature to me?

 

Just a stage along the path is all.

 

Also, to you Steve is a True Realized Guru?

[3bob]

"...If you do not strive with others,

You will be free from blame."

 

from chap. 8. Btw. the term "strive" may have a lot of longitude and latitude in meaning

[Jonesboy]

2 minutes ago, 3bob said:

"...If you do not strive with others,

You will be free from blame."

 

from chap. 8. Btw. the term "strive" may have a lot of longitude and latitude in meaning

 

Nobody is striving.

 

Why can't it come from a place of compassion, maybe helping to point something out?

 

Again why is it always bad, negative, scary, etc.

 

I have seen on a daily basis where sharing one way or another has some powerful benefits.

 

 

[Jonesboy]

41 minutes ago, 3bob said:

"...If you do not strive with others,

You will be free from blame."

 

from chap. 8. Btw. the term "strive" may have a lot of longitude and latitude in meaning

 

I would also say that such comments are about the ego. It is about desiring a state that maybe others are experiencing. Feeling things the way others feel them. Wanting, desire.

 

As well all know all such wanting, striving  is exactly how you don't achieve such states of being. At the same time one can not suppress or run away from the ego. One way or another you have to deal with things and let them go.

 

Hiding is just delaying things is all.

 

If you are only enlightened when alone and caught up when dealing with others. Are you really enlightened at all?

 

No.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Jonesboy

[3bob]

to morph a saying,  we have met the Guru and he is us

[Fa Xin]

Is it even possible to describe ones true nature ?

[silent thunder]

My true nature seems to be awareness.

 

Along with this clarity, emptiness and loving kindness seem to arise without effort, technique or skill.

 

Indeed effort, technique and skill (meditation, nei gong, qi gong) for a time were the final filters over awareness.

[dwai]

20 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Is it even possible to describe ones true nature ?

Only thing I can say is Sat Chit Ananda

[dwai]

52 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Hiding is just delaying things is all.

 

If you are only enlightened when alone and caught up when dealing with others. Are you really enlightened at all?

 

No.

Maybe it is part of the "awakening"? Its not a on-off binary thing it seems. More we immerse back into the world, more we find we have to release to become "Free-er"?

[silent thunder]

It seems when I fall back into the world of identifying with things, that like sleep, it's a bit like going underwater.

 

when my head rises above the water though, clarity, clear breath, awareness, raw pure emptiness abides... until my head goes under again and I'm swimming in the interactions of emotion, thought-forms and identifying with the temporal.

[s1va]

33 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Is it even possible to describe ones true nature ?

 

If some one has realized their true nature, they should be able to describe it in their own words.  Many great masters have done it in their own ways.  I like what Jeff said on another post (link below) about explaining realization.  I think it may apply to describing also.    "Those who know can easily explain."   Whether, I am be able to understand what they explain, or if my realization matches theirs are all different stories.

 

 

[Jonesboy]

25 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

It seems when I fall back into the world of identifying with things, that like sleep, it's a bit like going underwater.

 

when my head rises above the water though, clarity, clear breath, awareness, raw pure emptiness abides... until my head goes under again and I'm swimming in the interactions of emotion, thought-forms and identifying with the temporal.

 

When you go back into the water that is what you have to work on. Those are your obstructions.

 

The more you remove, the clearer the water and no need to go above because it is all one and the same.

[s1va]

1 hour ago, Jonesboy said:

 

If you are only enlightened when alone and caught up when dealing with others. Are you really enlightened at all?

 

Something really to ponder upon. Not just while dealing with others, even if some sudden and unexpected disastrous life event can make someone get caught up with mind stuff, are they really enlightened at all? I will leave that question open. 

 

Anyway, this reminded me of the story of Ram Dass, whose life changes drastically after the unexpected stroke that paralyzed him.  Ram Dass had the courage to admit and describe the suffering of his ego and the agony he went through after the stroke.  In his own words, 

 

Quote

"I was depressed," he admitted. There were three sufferings. The suffering of the body. The suffering of my ego, from being an independent person to being dependent. And the spiritual suffering, because up until then, I had led a graced life ever since I met my guru. The stroke didn't look like grace. So I thought I was at the end of a graced life." 

 

But, he eventually finds the grace in suffering also.  His documentary on this topic is available on Netflix.

Quote

But soon Ram Dass came to believe that his stroke was actually a "gift" from his guru, who had taught him that you wait for the grace to appear.

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by s1va

[3bob]

silence may roar more than a thousand astute volumes or words ever can.

[Jonesboy]

18 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Something really to ponder upon. Not just while dealing with others, even if some sudden and unexpected disastrous life event can make someone get caught up with mind stuff, are they really enlightened at all? I will leave that question open. 

 

Anyway, this reminded me of the story of Ram Dass, whose life changes drastically after the unexpected stroke that paralyzed him.  Ram Dass had the courage to admit and describe the suffering of his ego and the agony he went through after the stroke.  In his own words, 

 

 

But, he eventually finds the grace in suffering also.  His documentary on this topic is available on Netflix.

 

 

Yes,

 

Did you see where he talked about the Witness? I found that interesting.

[Jonesboy]

8 minutes ago, 3bob said:

silence may roar more than a thousand astute volumes or words ever can.

 

I have found that light is nothing more than the power of silence. They are not separate but one and the same. It is emptiness yet it is also everything. It is not something experienced but something one realizes and it radiates as a most beautiful clarity.

 

Who needs words when one can directly share such things?

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

Thank you both.

 

 

May I ask you to go into more detail on these aspects.

 

"I rest in the spaciousness, stillness, and silence that remains.

Luminous, immediate, and vivid, yet utterly clear and transparent."

 

As well as...

 

"

Like painting figures in air, the sky is untouched.

Clear presence aware of its empty nature remains."

 

That sounds more like one has touched deep silence or is this also where thoughts don't matter as they just float on by un-attaching. Is there anything more than silence?

 

Also, does ones empty nature include ones body as you go about your day?

 

I'd prefer to leave my little poem as it is.

I feel like I am now being tested and examined, measured and graded.

That was not the objective of sharing.

Trying to anticipate what you are looking for, trying to describe experience in more detail, adding more words...

Trying to describe the natural state with words...

I'll pass.

 

I will say that yes, the empty nature does include the body. 

My ability to rest in the nature of mind as I go through the day and in dreams is something that I currently work with and is coming along slowly but surely. In our tradition, we look at it from the perspective of body, speech, and mind. All three are integrated into the natural state in waking, dream, deep sleep, and at the time of death.

 

 

2 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Sounds good.

 

Should I say that what he has described is not ones True Nature to me?

 

Just a stage along the path is all.

 

Also, to you Steve is a True Realized Guru?

 

My intention was not to describe my true nature but simply share personal meditative experience.

I do so rarely and prefer not to have it dissected or graded.

No question I am at a stage along the path, nothing more and nothing less.

And no, I'm not a realized guru.

 

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

Is it even possible to describe ones true nature ?

 

We can describe our experience but not our true nature, IMO.

I can describe the flavor of a mango to you - it's tart, sour, sweet, funky, creamy, there's a bit of umame.

If you've never tasted a mango it might sound just like spoiled milk or lemonade but you still won't know the flavor of a mango.

A menu doesn't satisfy hunger and the letters w-a-t-e-r don't slake thirst.

 

I'm not much into trying to intellectually understand these things.

I'm more interested in seeing how they improve the quality of my life and those around me. 

Beyond practice, I find relatively little value in thinking or talking about it.

I'd much rather discuss the impact it's having on our lives and how it can be beneficial.

The words and concepts for me are more a distraction than an aid with a few exceptions as noted in my earlier post.

[Jonesboy]

2 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I'd prefer to leave my little poem as it is.

I feel like I am now being tested and examined, measured and graded.

That was not the objective of sharing.

Trying to anticipate what you are looking for, trying to describe experience in more detail, adding more words...

Trying to describe the natural state with words...

I'll pass.

 

I will say that yes, the empty nature does include the body. 

My ability to rest in the nature of mind as I go through the day and in dreams is something that I currently work with and is coming along slowly but surely. In our tradition, we look at it from the perspective of body, speech, and mind. All three are integrated into the natural state in waking, dream, deep sleep, and at the time of death.

 

 

 

My intention was not to describe my true nature but simply share personal meditative experience.

I do so rarely and prefer not to have it dissected or graded.

No question I am at a stage along the path, nothing more and nothing less.

And no, I'm not a realized guru.

 

 

We can describe our experience but not our true nature, IMO.

I can describe the flavor of a mango to you - it's tart, sour, sweet, funky, creamy, there's a bit of umame.

If you've never tasted a mango it might sound just like spoiled milk or lemonade but you still won't know the flavor of a mango.

A menu doesn't satisfy hunger and the letters w-a-t-e-r don't slake thirst.

 

I'm not much into trying to intellectually understand these things.

I'm more interested in seeing how they improve the quality of my life and those around me. 

Beyond practice, I find relatively little value in thinking or talking about it.

I'd much rather discuss the impact it's having on our lives and how it can be beneficial.

The words and concepts for me are more a distraction than an aid with a few exceptions as noted in my earlier post.

 

Please forgive me for making you feel like you are being judge or graded. That was far from my intent.

 

I am really just trying to figure out what you and Mark are referring to as ones True Nature.

 

I find you to be a very nice and deep guy.

 

Again, please forgive me if my questions came across in a negative light.

 

Thank you for all of your insights.

 

Also, that is a very beautiful poem

[Jonesboy]

To help understand where my questions were going I will add a post from Kashmir Shaivism and Dzogchen.

 

To me our True Nature isn't just an empty awareness. It is also the light, that infinite potential or as the Shiva Sutras mentions.

 

3.37. karaṇa śaktiḥ svato’nubhavāt

The power of creation is the experience of every individual.

 

A most beautiful description is from the Triadic Heart of Siva.

 

Spoiler

The Heart of Siva

The Heart, says Abhinavagupta, is the very Self of Siva, of Bhairava,

and of the Devi, the Goddess who is inseparable from Siva. Indeed,

the Heart is the site of their union (yamala), of their embrace (samghatta).

This abode is pure consciousness (caitanya) as well as unlimited bliss

(ananda). As consciousness the Heart is the unbounded, infinite light

(prakasa) as well as the freedom (svatantrya) and spontaneity (vimarsa)

of that light to appear in a multitude and variety of forms. The Heart,

says Abhinavagupta, is the sacred fire-pit of Bhairava.1

 

The Heart is the Ultimate (anuttara) which is both utterly transcendent

to (visvottirna) and yet totally immanent in (visvamaya) all created things.

It is the ultimate essence (sara). Thus, the Heart embodies the paradoxical

nature of Siva and is therefore a place of astonishment (camatkara), sheer

wonder (vismaya), and ineffable mystery. The Heart is the fullness and

unboundedness of Siva (purnatva), the plenum of being that overflows

continuously into manifestation. At the same time, it is also an inconceivable

emptiness (sunyatisunya).2 The Heart is the unbounded and

universal Self (purnahanta).

 

The Heart of Siva is not a static or inert absolute, however. In fact,

the non-dual Kashmir Shaiva tradition considers it to be in a state of

perpetual movement, a state of vibration (spanda)3 in which it is continuously

contracting and expanding (samkoca-vikasa), opening and closing

(unmesa-nimesa), trembling (ullasita), quivering (sphurita), throbbing,

waving, and sparkling (ucchalata). The intensity and speed of this move

ment is such that paradoxically it is simultaneously a perfect dynamic

stillness.4

 

The tradition states that the Heart is the enormous ocean (ambunidhi),

the ocean of light, the ocean of consciousness. The waters of consciousness

that in man are broken by countless polarizing and divisive waves (urmi)

may be easily brought to a state of dynamic stillness by the process of

immersion or absorption (samdvesa) in the Heart.

 

To me it is much the same as Norbu describes the Primordial State.

 

Spoiler

DZOGCHEN

THE SELF-PERFECTED STATE

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

 

In the Dzogchen teachings the primordial state of the base

is not defined only as being void, but is explained as having

three aspects or characteristics, called the "three primordial

wisdoms": essence, nature, and energy.

 

The essence is the void, the real condition of the individual

and of all phenomena. This base is the condition of all individuals,

whether they are aware of it or not, whether they

are enlightened or in transmigration. It is said to be "pure

from the beginning" (ka dag), because, like space, it is free of

all impediments, and is the basis of all the manifestations in

existence.

 

The manifestation of the primordial state in all its aspects,

its "clarity," on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said

to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub), because it exists spontaneously

from the beginning, like the sun which shines in

space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all

perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment.

For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive

its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if

this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.

Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the

situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,

"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."

Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance

and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception

is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered

into action. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the

individual's state. The same is true for thoughts: if we don't

follow them, and don't become caught up in mental judgment,

they too are part of our natural clarity.

 

The third of the three primordial wisdoms is energy. Its

characteristic is that it manifests without interruption.4 The

explanation of energy in Dzogchen is fundamental to understanding

the base. All dimensions, whether pure or impure,

material or subtle, are manifestations of one aspect or

another of energy. To explain how both transmigration and

enlightenment originate, three ways in which energy manifests

are described. These three modes of energy are called

"tsel" (rtsal), "rolba" (rol ba) , and "dang" (gdangs), names

that cannot be translated into Western languages.

 

One has to realize that light, that energy with all it's infinite potential that is also you. Not just essence and nature.

 

That is more what I think of as ones true nature.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by Jonesboy