Merging and guru yoga

[Jonesboy]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 9:20 AM, Apech said:

Mind-stream or citta-santana is a teaching from Yogacara Buddhism and not Classical Buddhism (if by that you mean early Buddhism).  I'm not sure where people are getting this merging or not-merging thing from as the mind-stream is understood as a continuum - but please provide links of references to see what you are quoting.  It just looks like strawmanning to me to be honest.  But as I say show me the source - I would like to see it.

 

By the way in Vajrayana the guru's and student's minds merge in the Sambhogakaya.

 

PS. to the post somewhere above - 'rebirth' is not the same as reincarnation and can be seen as a direct consequence of the citta-santana - since tho' we may die it does not - it is not the same as the incarnation of the Atman through many lives which is Hindu thought not Buddhist.

 

I don’t understand what you are asking apech.

 

First you are saying prove mind streams  merge and is a bunch of straw manning and then guru yoga merges mind streams.

 

So what are you asking for?

Edited March 7, 2019 by Jonesboy

[Apech]

18 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

I don’t understand what you are asking apech.

 

First you are saying prove mind streams  merge and is a bunch of straw manning and then guru yoga merges mind streams.

 

So what are you asking for?

 

Hi,

 

i was asking the source of this assertion by Jeff "Ok. Classical Buddhism is wrong about mind streams all being separate with no overlap. " - which I think you agreed with.

 

Also: this by CC

 

Quote

 

Pretty much everything.

 

Buddha fully embraced the philosophical idea of "rebirth", which is -in nature- not different from believing that we're going to ride rainbow-unicorns in the sky. It's a matter of faith.

 

From a theoretical explanation of the afterlife (rebirth) which has no empirical evidence, he derived a philosophical problem, the problem of never-ending suffering in samsara.

To solve a philosophical problem (never-ending suffering) which is based on an unverified dogma (rebirth), he devised a monastic way of life based on ... abandon and suppress all of human's nature: don't have children, don't have a wife, don't work, etc.

 

 

I'm not sure where this (mis)-understanding came from.

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

Mind-stream or citta-santana is a teaching from Yogacara Buddhism and not Classical Buddhism (if by that you mean early Buddhism).  I'm not sure where people are getting this merging or not-merging thing from as the mind-stream is understood as a continuum - but please provide links of references to see what you are quoting.  It just looks like strawmanning to me to be honest.  But as I say show me the source - I would like to see it.

 

By the way in Vajrayana the guru's and student's minds merge in the Sambhogakaya.

 

...

 

Any sutra or quote you can give regarding the merger of the gurus and students minds in Vajrayana? Have had many discussions with the guys at a major Buddhist forum where they are always telling me it is theoretically impossible in buddhadharma, even when I offer to directly demonstrate for them. Their position is that any such statement, simply means that that the student and guru are simply going the same direction (or going on the same path). 

 

Also, what bhumi does a student need to access/notice the Sambhogakaya in your Vajrayana tradition?

 

Thanks.

[Apech]

24 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Any sutra or quote you can give regarding the merger of the gurus and students minds in Vajrayana? Have had many discussions with the guys at a major Buddhist forum where they are always telling me it is theoretically impossible in buddhadharma, even when I offer to directly demonstrate for them. Their position is that any such statement, simply means that that the student and guru are simply going the same direction (or going on the same path). 

 

Also, what bhumi does a student need to access/notice the Sambhogakaya in your Vajrayana tradition?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Hi,

 

Something tells me we have had this discussion before.

 

I can quote from one of Milarepa's songs:

 

Marpa of Lhodrak, who has been so kind,  

By remembering you from my heart, I meditate with you there.  

Again and again I supplicate you to never be separate from me.  

Mixing one’s mind with the guru’s is so blissful.  

 

A la la! The nature of appearances  

Is pointed out as birthless dharmakaya,  

And they merge, uncontrived, with the state of dharmakaya.  

I’m not concerned whether some views are high and others low.  

This uncontrived mind is so blissful indeed!

 

This nature of mind is luminosity-emptiness.  

That luminosity-emptiness is pointed out as awareness  

And they merge in the uncontrived, innate state.

I’m not concerned over good or bad meditation.  

This uncontrived mind is so blissful indeed!  

 

The sixfold collection clear right in its own place.

Is pointed out as nondual, free of perceiver and perceived,  

And both pleasure and pain are merged into one.  

With this body, uncontrived, in its primordial state,  

I’m not concerned over right or wrong conduct.  

This uncontrived mind is so blissful indeed!  

 

The fruition is the nature of dharmakaya.  

The variety is pointed out as nirmanakaya.  

Everything, when encountered, is merged with the state of liberation,  

But I have no hope of any fruition.  

This uncontrived mind is so blissful indeed!  

 

See first verse in bold.  That's the best I can do for now.

 

Do you have links to those Buddhist discussions?  What school of Buddhism were they?

 

I'll have to think about Bhumi - as far as I am thinking completion stage Guru Yoga is enough - but I am not sure.

[Jeff]

16 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Hi,

 

Something tells me we have had this discussion before.

 

I can quote from one of Milarepa's songs:

 

Marpa of Lhodrak, who has been so kind,  

By remembering you from my heart, I meditate with you there.  

Again and again I supplicate you to never be separate from me.  

Mixing one’s mind with the guru’s is so blissful.  

 

A la la! The nature of appearances  

Is pointed out as birthless dharmakaya,  

And they merge, uncontrived, with the state of dharmakaya.  

I’m not concerned whether some views are high and others low.  

This uncontrived mind is so blissful indeed!

 

This nature of mind is luminosity-emptiness.  

That luminosity-emptiness is pointed out as awareness  

And they merge in the uncontrived, innate state.

I’m not concerned over good or bad meditation.  

This uncontrived mind is so blissful indeed!  

 

The sixfold collection clear right in its own place.

Is pointed out as nondual, free of perceiver and perceived,  

And both pleasure and pain are merged into one.  

With this body, uncontrived, in its primordial state,  

I’m not concerned over right or wrong conduct.  

This uncontrived mind is so blissful indeed!  

 

The fruition is the nature of dharmakaya.  

The variety is pointed out as nirmanakaya.  

Everything, when encountered, is merged with the state of liberation,  

But I have no hope of any fruition.  

This uncontrived mind is so blissful indeed!  

 

See first verse in bold.  That's the best I can do for now.

 

Do you have links to those Buddhist discussions?  What school of Buddhism were they?

 

I'll have to think about Bhumi - as far as I am thinking completion stage Guru Yoga is enough - but I am not sure.

 

Sending you the link by pm...  

[C T]

The Sambhogakaya is noticeable and accessible from the 1st bhumi on. How it is accessed is, as mentioned by Apech, thru the application and practice of Guru Yoga. As one moves forward from the first (which is only an expedient way of understanding the progression - in actual fact, it is not a fixed progression), the wisdom and method associated with that Kaya gets more refined as the bliss (the enjoyment basis) matures. Ultimately the qualities of the Sambhogakaya buddhas begin to take root as old habits die away, to be replaced and manifested by thought, speech and actions that unmistakably reflect those of the family of buddhas in that particular 'body'. 

[Jeff]

31 minutes ago, C T said:

The Sambhogakaya is noticeable and accessible from the 1st bhumi on. How it is accessed is, as mentioned by Apech, thru the application and practice of Guru Yoga. As one moves forward from the first (which is only an expedient way of understanding the progression - in actual fact, it is not a fixed progression), the wisdom and method associated with that Kaya gets more refined as the bliss (the enjoyment basis) matures. Ultimately the qualities of the Sambhogakaya buddhas begin to take root as old habits die away, to be replaced and manifested by thought, speech and actions that unmistakably reflect those of the family of buddhas in that particular 'body'. 

 

Any source for your view that the Sambhogakaya is noticeable at the 1st bhumi? I have been taught that it was only above 8th. That only the nirmankaya was directly noticeable for 8th and below.

 

Thanks.

[C T]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

Any source for your view that the Sambhogakaya is noticeable at the 1st bhumi? I have been taught that it was only above 8th. That only the nirmankaya was directly noticeable for 8th and below.

 

Thanks.

 

Samboghakaya is the recognised basis for the arising of Nirmanakaya, so what you have been taught might be slightly inaccurate. 

 

In a nutshell, when a practitioner begins to reap the harvest of good practice habits and manifesting these externally it is said that the practitioner is thus manifesting the Kaya of Sambogha, or Body that is enjoying the fruits of right application of the Eightfold path, aka Buddhadharma. This is the correct way to understand the meaning of this Kaya. Hence, even a beginner on the path can begin to enjoy the fruits of right practice with immediacy. Its just that this enjoyment gets refined and becomes more stable as one continually matures on the path. 

 

The Trikaya are in truth not three independent bodies - a practitioner can reflect the qualities of all three at any stage of their practice - there are no fixed rules that determine when each Kaya can be recognised and accessed. For example, one may feel alignment with and personify the qualities of Vairocana, a Dharmakaya Buddha - the process of embodying these qualities occur in the realm of Sambhogakaya, and the subsequent display (if the practitioner so chooses) of these qualities to benefit sentient beings is said to occur in the Nirmanakaya realm. This is one simple example to view/explain the Kayas. 

Edited January 7, 2018 by C T

[Mark Foote]

On 1/6/2018 at 7:02 AM, Jonesboy said:

 

But one can connect or merge with another to help or be helped. A very powerful thing that is missed in Buddhism.

 

Feels that way when I'm free-styling, sometimes,

 

Here's one of my favorite quotes from the late Kobun Chino Otogawa:

"Sitting shikantaza is the place itself, and things. ...When you sit, the cushion sits with you. If you wear glasses, the glasses sit with you. Clothing sits with you. House sits with you. People who are moving around outside all sit with you. They don't take the sitting posture!"

 

(from the Jikoji website, Aspects of Sitting Meditation)

 

 

Without even trying!

 

[Jonesboy]

8 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Feels that way when I'm free-styling, sometimes,

 

Here's one of my favorite quotes from the late Kobun Chino Otogawa:

"Sitting shikantaza is the place itself, and things. ...When you sit, the cushion sits with you. If you wear glasses, the glasses sit with you. Clothing sits with you. House sits with you. People who are moving around outside all sit with you. They don't take the sitting posture!"

 

(from the Jikoji website, Aspects of Sitting Meditation)

 

 

Without even trying!

 

 

Hi Mark,

 

I am a little slow this morning so please forgive me if I am missing it.

 

Are you saying that you can merge, become one with Divine beings and other people without even trying?

 

Or are you more saying that meditation isn't a doing it is a being an all the time being type thing?

[Jonesboy]

Now not to beat a dead horse but I am really trying to learn what Buddhist believe.

 

After doing a lot of reading on guru yoga it seems that the higher teachings talk of merging but the actually practice is more symbolic. You are not connecting directly to the lama. You are connecting to the absolute lama and it is the mantras and what they represent that is the actual merging.

 

Deity yoga seems to be the same at least as described here.

 

Quote

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WtPrOE1JSk&feature=related

 

 

Shinzen Young gives a clear explanation on the practice of Deity Yoga in the Vajrayana Path.

 

 

Any clarification would be great.

[Apech]

50 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

Now not to beat a dead horse but I am really trying to learn what Buddhist believe.

 

After doing a lot of reading on guru yoga it seems that the higher teachings talk of merging but the actually practice is more symbolic. You are not connecting directly to the lama. You are connecting to the absolute lama and it is the mantras and what they represent that is the actual merging.

 

Deity yoga seems to be the same at least as described here.

 

 

Any clarification would be great.

 

Well as you know there are lots of different schools of Buddhism which practice different things.  I wasn't very keen on the Shinzen Young video - and he seems to be versed in Shingon from Japan - but hey what do I know :).  Anyway - no its not symbolic - and why would you wish to merge with anything other than the wisdom-mind of the guru?  Do you wish to merge with other confused and 'ignorant' beings?  And why?

[Jonesboy]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

Well as you know there are lots of different schools of Buddhism which practice different things.  I wasn't very keen on the Shinzen Young video - and he seems to be versed in Shingon from Japan - but hey what do I know :).  Anyway - no its not symbolic - and why would you wish to merge with anything other than the wisdom-mind of the guru?  Do you wish to merge with other confused and 'ignorant' beings?  And why?

 

Lot's of duality in that statement

 

If the guru isn't able to do the connection and for you all it is, is mantra and visualization.

 

How is it a real merge? Especially if the lama doesn't feel it? Such a connection would be powerful for both parties wouldn't it?

 

Are you not just connecting to the guru at his level and all the rest is just talk about it being his ultimate self?

 

Also, I posted the link because CT said that was a good explanation of Deity Yoga. Again it doesn't seem like you are merging with divine beings with such a description.

[3bob]

On 11/21/2017 at 11:24 AM, Stosh said:

Mods wont take action on a good dodge of a bad question. 

 

 

Although there was, "I would like to know what about Buddhism they disagreed about." from OP

 

One has to mostly do their own research since answers from others are not answers they have basically proven (through experience) for themselves...  one may also ask questions about meanings of recorded doctrine but that does not necessarily mean one will get the full meaning/answer through discussions about written doctrine.  For an example here is a question for Buddhists based on an excerpt from Chapter 25 of the T.T.C. "...Silent and boundless, Standing alone without change, yet pervading all without fail, It may be regarded as the Mother of the world..."   do Buddhists embrace such an idea as this or is it different from the core teachings of the historic Buddha? 

Edited January 10, 2018 by 3bob

[Apech]

31 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Lot's of duality in that statement

 

If the guru isn't able to do the connection and for you all it is, is mantra and visualization.

 

How is it a real merge? Especially if the lama doesn't feel it? Such a connection would be powerful for both parties wouldn't it?

 

Are you not just connecting to the guru at his level and all the rest is just talk about it being his ultimate self?

 

Also, I posted the link because CT said that was a good explanation of Deity Yoga. Again it doesn't seem like you are merging with divine beings with such a description.

 

Perhaps you are talking about something different to guru yoga in your 'merge'.  But this thread is about what the Buddha is incorrect about not what you are incorrect about.  If I have to choose then the choice is easy

[Jonesboy]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Perhaps you are talking about something different to guru yoga in your 'merge'.  But this thread is about what the Buddha is incorrect about not what you are incorrect about.  If I have to choose then the choice is easy

 

Now I am really confused.

 

I thought you corrected me a few post ago saying that in Buddhism they do talk about merging and part of that is with guru yoga.

 

To me every such description of guru and Yidam practices does not seem to me about merging, becoming one with another being. Be it the guru or the Yidam.

If someone can show me where Buddhism mentions it more than just symbolically I will stand by my statement that Buddhism says it is not possible and one of the things Buddhism has gotten wrong.

[Apech]

Just now, Jonesboy said:

 

Now I am really confused.

 

I thought you corrected me a few post ago saying that in Buddhism they do talk about merging and part of that is with guru yoga.

 

To me every such description of guru and Yidam practices does not seem to me about merging, becoming one with another being. Be it the guru or the Yidam.

If someone can show me where Buddhism mentions it more than just symbolically I will stand by my statement that Buddhism says it is not possible and one of the things Buddhism has gotten wrong.

 

OK.  I was just saying that they refer to merging but perhaps mean something different to you.  That's all.

[C T]

The idea of merging with the enlightened symbols of the buddhas (as represented by one's teacher) occurs during the conceptual or generation phases of guru yoga. Integral to this stage of practice is to gain stability and faith in the recognition that the external guru is none other than the embodiment of the enlightened qualities of all the buddhas of the three times, and one then begin to adopt similar qualities using the guru as the perfect guide and example. Traditionally, thats how it was done, before gurus' reputations became a thing to be scrutinised and questioned.

 

Following on from the above, during the completion stage, or the phase of embodiment, the qualities of one's yidam, recognised, revealed, and absorbed during the generation practices, are fully acknowledged as in fact inseparable from one's own intrinsic buddha qualities, which have been there all along but hidden due to various impediments that in the past have tainted and obscured the wisdom inherent in one's own body, speech and mind. Because of this unmistakable seeing that there was no inseparability to begin with, then it will be a mistake at this stage of practice to continue holding on to the idea that there is a kind of merging involved. 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2018 by C T
grammar

[3bob]

a merging or joining (so to speak) of minds through direct telepathy is one thing, but when it comes to Spirit merging with Spirit that is already done or existant - thus no merging needed.

Edited January 10, 2018 by 3bob

[Jonesboy]

6 minutes ago, C T said:

The idea of merging with the enlightened symbols of the buddhas (as represented by one's teacher) occurs during the conceptual or generation phases of guru yoga. Integral to this stage of practice is to gain stability and faith in the recognition that the external guru is none other than the embodiment of the enlightened qualities of all the buddhas of the three times, and one then begin to adopt similar qualities using the guru as the perfect guide and example. Traditionally, thats how it was done, before gurus' reputation became a thing to be scrutinised and questioned. 

 

Following on from the above, during the completion stage, or the phase of embodiment, the qualities of one's yidam, recognised, revealed, and absorbed during the generation practices, are fully acknowledged as in fact inseparable from one's own intrinsic buddha qualities, which have been there all along but hidden due to various impediments that in the past has tainted and obscured the wisdom inherent in one's own body, speech and mind. Because of this unmistakable seeing that there was no inseparability to begin with, then it will be a mistake at this stage of practice to continue holding on to the idea that there is a kind of merging involved. 

 

 

 

Now to make sure I am understanding you correctly.

 

"Following on from the above, during the completion stage, or the phase of embodiment, the qualities of one's yidam, recognised, revealed, and absorbed during the generation practices, are fully acknowledged as in fact inseparable from one's own intrinsic buddha qualities, which have been there all along but hidden due to various impediments that in the past has tainted and obscured the wisdom inherent in one's own body, speech and mind."

 

Is this saying that once you realize Buddha Nature or have realized it is all of the same essence there is no longer a concept of merging or is this before one has realized Buddha Nature?

[Jonesboy]

4 minutes ago, 3bob said:

a merging or joining (so to speak) of minds through direct telepathy is one thing, but when it comes to Spirit merging with Spirit that is already done or existant - thus no merging needed.

 

I would disagree.

 

Such merging is very powerful means of progressing. First one experiences a connection with is powerful energy and silence. A merge is much, much more depending on ones depth and clarity.

 

I would also disagree that any such merging as I am describing is a minds through telepathy type thing.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Jonesboy

[3bob]

2 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

I would disagree.

 

Such merging is very powerful means of progressing. First one experiences a connection with is powerful energy and silence. A merge is much, much more depending on ones depth and clarity.

 

maybe as an individual mental perception, but I'll use the analogy that water is already merged with water, thus in that sense there is no merging of differences in being, it is already there so to speak. 

[Jonesboy]

Just now, 3bob said:

 

maybe as an individual mental perception, but I'll use the analogy that water is already merged with water, thus in that sense there is no merging of differences in being, it is already there so to speak. 

 

Does that mean there is only really one being?

Someone trapped in local mind compared to another sharing his essence that is beyond local mind. Do you not think that would feel like anything? Help at all? Or is it more we are already the same no I wouldn't experience anything being in the presence of a Buddha?

 

I bet you would

[C T]

4 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Now to make sure I am understanding you correctly.

 

"Following on from the above, during the completion stage, or the phase of embodiment, the qualities of one's yidam, recognised, revealed, and absorbed during the generation practices, are fully acknowledged as in fact inseparable from one's own intrinsic buddha qualities, which have been there all along but hidden due to various impediments that in the past has tainted and obscured the wisdom inherent in one's own body, speech and mind."

 

Is this saying that once you realize Buddha Nature or have realized it is all of the same essence there is no longer a concept of merging or is this before one has realized Buddha Nature?

 

When that realisation is reached, in its ideal sense, then yes, there is an unmistakable recognition that one's enlightened nature is not different, not same as the buddhas' enlightened natures. But to find one who has fully stabilised this realisation is quite rare. At that point it is said that wisdom and compassion flows as one. Prior to this, its important to know how to separate expedient methods of practice and glimpses of insight, and the actual, stable flow of unimpeded primordial wisdom. 

[C T]

10 minutes ago, 3bob said:

 

maybe as an individual mental perception, but I'll use the analogy that water is already merged with water, thus in that sense there is no merging of differences in being, it is already there so to speak. 

Thats a good example.. water poured into water. Thanks