If food and sunlight gives us qi, why do people who go to meditate in caves while fasting for weeks have much greater levels of qi?

[Phoenix3]

Like Mikao Usui. He went in a cave to meditate and fast. Afterwards he left and was far more powerful in terms of qi

[dawei]

It is a somewhat interesting question but the only way to do any comparison is if folks were to meditate and fast in the sunlight under basically similar conditions (except instead of energy from darkness surrounding you, they would have sunlight energy).   I think it would be an interesting meditation comparison between sunlight / yang vs darkness / yin.

 

Maybe you'd get more quickly , comparatively speaking, acquire energy from sunlight but due to the cave effect, you would likely get more detachment.  So, I suspect it is for practical reasons; the more isolated you are more, you are more likely able to detach more-so.  

 

But if you had the choice of more energy but less detachment, or less energy and more detachment... which would you try ?

 

There is an interdependence between these, because the more you are detached, the more open you are; the more open you are, the more energy can flow.   

 

So do we need more energy or more easy, energy flow ?

 

Thinking on this, this may be why alchemy arose with Ming and Xing methods in more modern times...  they lost all the lost practices and came up with something akin to doing yang (sun) and yin (darkness) practices.

[dawei]

15 minutes ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

Xing and ming are not modern, though. They are at least four thousand years old and don't really have anything to do with practices that directly involve being in sunlight or darkness.

 

 

Can you give a text reference for four thousand years old Ming and Xing practices? 

 

And I didn't say they directly involve sunlight or darkness... my metaphorical talking may of been mis-understood.  

 

In general, pursuing alchemy is a dead-end... IMO...   Go to the gym instead.... if you like meditation, do it. If  you like QIgong, do it. if you like Tai Chi do it.  If you like alchemy do it...   JMO.

[idquest]

Meditating in caves has its own qualities which are not connected to a lack of sunlight. My experience has been that in the cave I could attain a deep meditating state literally in 5 seconds. Whereas in a regular quiet room I need 30+ minutes to get there.

[dawei]

8 minutes ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

Well, the pedigree of "Taoist Yoga" is supposedly 47 centuries, by the original curators of it. But the interview you posted also placed xing and ming in the proto-daoist literature, which would make it more than 2,000 years old.

 

 

I believe Taoist Yoga was a work of translation by Charles Luk, who lived until 1987....  Toaist Yoga was written in 1973.  That seems modern to me.  And he conflated a translation of daoist and buddhist practice... but was not a practitioner?  HE was a devout follower of Buddhism. 

 

I'm just asking, where is that original writing showing Ming and Xing. 

 

Not sure about the 'interview' comment.

[dawei]

7 minutes ago, idquest said:

Meditating in caves has its own qualities which are not connected to a lack of sunlight. My experience has been that in the cave I could attain a deep meditating state literally in 5 seconds. Whereas in a regular quiet room I need 30+ minutes to get there.

 

Why not go deeper and explain why you can attain a deep meditating state...  

[Phoenix3]

57 minutes ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

With regards to sunlight, there are a few things  at work. On the one hand, there is a direct reception of light energy from the sun. In general, though, most people don't make a meaningful use of the energy of the sun because there are a handful of practices that are required to integrate it. It is possible to harvest yang from the noontime sun; it is possible to absorb solar energy through the eyes to energize the third eye, it is also possible to absorb solar energy through the skin and seal it in if you join the fire and air fingers in a mudra to prevent the energy from escaping. In general, though, most uses of solar energy don't involve going deep into meditation it is a more yang and less yin activity, which makes the energy itself a bit more superficial. Practices in darkness are more yin in nature which makes the energy deeper and the yang rebound stronger.

 

Do you have any sources on how to absorb and integrate energy from the sun? Thanks

 

Also, why wouldn’t you go deep in meditation? Meditation makes you very yin, yes? This will attract the yang energy of the sunlight perhaps.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Phoenix3

[MIchael80]

7 hours ago, dawei said:

 

I believe Taoist Yoga was a work of translation by Charles Luk, who lived until 1987....  Toaist Yoga was written in 1973.  That seems modern to me.  And he conflated a translation of daoist and buddhist practice... but was not a practitioner?  HE was a devout follower of Buddhism. 

 

I'm just asking, where is that original writing showing Ming and Xing. 

 

Not sure about the 'interview' comment.

No.

the lineage of neidan that is described in the book "taoist yoga" is qianfen pai. the book is a shortened version of a secret training manuel. they initate westerners. the website from the netherlends is from a guy who is initiated into that lineage.

http://www.qianfeng.nl/?page_id=9

http://www.qianfeng.org/

best

[MIchael80]

7 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

Do you have any sources on how to absorb and integrate energy from the sun? Thanks

 

Also, why wouldn’t you go deep in meditation? Meditation makes you very yin, yes? This will attract the yang energy of the sunlight perhaps.

http://sunyoga.info/sun-yoga/sun-meditation/

[Chang]

9 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

Like Mikao Usui. He went in a cave to meditate and fast. Afterwards he left and was far more powerful in terms of qi

 

You are heading down the wrong road if you believe that retirement to a cave will develop your qi or internal strength.

 

One would retire to a cave to avoid food for the senses thereby aiding meditative practices. To buld Internal Energy it is good to practice where such energy abounds - in the open surronded by trees for example.

[vonkrankenhaus]

22 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

If food and sunlight gives us qi, why do people who go to meditate in caves while fasting for weeks have much greater levels of qi? -- Like Mikao Usui. He went in a cave to meditate and fast. Afterwards he left and was far more powerful in terms of qi

 

Qi is movement arising with any polarity.

 

"Powerful" just means big polarity is there.

 

If you mean the kind of bodily polarities that we work (gong) to generate added biological strength such that, for example, a person could generate more heat, or more bio-electricity, or a different kind of metabolic reaction, control heart activity, and thing like that, these polarities are not mainly worked or developed by fasting and meditating in the dark.

 

If you want to develop something like "ESP", receive and generate images, etc - then fasting and cave training can have direct effect.

 

Darkness training, in particular - but this is not "building qi" like you maybe think. It's for something a bit different.

 

If you are interested in Qi - can you write what you think "qi" is, so we are on the same page?

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Rara]

22 hours ago, Chang said:

 

You are heading down the wrong road if you believe that retirement to a cave will develop your qi or internal strength.

 

 

Seems a bit much, doesn't it?

 

Different things for different people, I guess. I know that I'm definitely solar-powered!

[thelerner]

Moving away from Qi, Darkness training- days spent in the total darkness seems to activate different centers in the mind.  Melatonin production and inner eye awareness is greatly enhanced, many report psychic centers opening.  It's fascinating to read accounts of those who go through the Healing Tao Total Darkness Retreat. 

info on it-https://www.universal-tao.com/dark_room/

One guys experience- https://www.universal-tao.com/dark_room/thedark.html

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2018 by thelerner

[Slim]

Also, caves are super yin, with lots of Earth Qi.

 

In the lineage of alchemy I practice we like to do the work in very yin environments. Extreme yin leads to the birth of yang. Out of the extreme stillness movement begins. And for the purposes of this conversation that movement is qi. It's like the Yi Ching hexagram, Fu ䷗ Return, five lines of yin over one line of yang just beginning to stir. As practitioners we want to find and harness this stillness. 

 

So places like caves, cellars, basements are all useful places to work at this stuff, really anywhere that has good Earth Qi. And as some of you mentioned above darkness helps develop certain aspects of the training as well. 

 

My sense is that fasting and sitting in caves are tools we can use to gain certain results. There isn't a perfect way of practicing, just what works best at that moment. For example there are different modes of neidan practice to build up qi. One way works the body in a very active manner, for this we need food to fuel the buildup of jing energy. If we used fasting while doing this kind of training it would deplete us. However, there is another way that works the body very gently, letting layers of body and self fall away, which allows us to tune into the qi more easily. For this sort of training fasting works well.

 

A better way to put is we can either add or subtract to develop qi. If we are using methods that subtract then fasting will help. I don't think there is a best way to practice. Just what works at that time. I've done both, and they both produced results. 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2018 by Nathan Brine
clarification, edit was done right after posting

[Stosh]

Because that which you contend against, becomes clear. 

[Small Fur]

On January 12, 2018 at 4:48 PM, Phoenix3 said:

Like Mikao Usui. He went in a cave to meditate and fast. Afterwards he left and was far more powerful in terms of qi

 

 

Because there are many forms or refinements of qi. And the qi you reference is a knowledge of mundane qi. Those who go into caves and can cultivate themselves to levels of increased vital energy through transmuting the treasures are doing alchemy utilizing essences, not necessarily coarse (unrefined) qi.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Small Fur

[voidisyinyang]

Actually Qi is the Mother of Shen and Shen is the child of Qi. Sunlight is just another form of Shen.

So when the qi builds up then this builds up the shen - it's called Shen-qi. You activate Yuan Qi - which is non-dual - so beyond the body and the mind. The body fills with qi - and so you only "think" it's dark - but then the cave fills up with light as shen. Chunyi Lin describes this in his book or in his classes http://springforestqigong.com

Or you can study relativistic quantum physics.

Light has relativistic mass as "hidden momentum" - that's the Yuan Qi - it's from noncommutative spacetime that is superluminal. So it's also called "Yin Matter" as the Golden Key that restores Yuan Jing.

So you are going into the Emptiness as a spacetime vortex.