Dantiens and Chakras - the same or different?

[amoyaan]

I've wondered this for some time. There are many similarities and overlaps in the Taoist/Chinese and Yogic/Indian models of the body's energy system and primary energy centres.

 

Do you consider the dantiens to be essentially the same as the chakras? Obviously, the middle and upper dantiens seem to correspond with the location of the fourth (anhata) and sixth chakras (ajna) in the yogic system.

 

Does this mean the lower dantien is equivalent to the second chakra (svadhisthana)? Both have approximately the same location in the body.

 

Or are the chakras and dantiens different in terms of what they are and what they do?

 

My feel is the chakras are energy regulators and the dantiens serve as kind of batteries or storehouses for energy.

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated

[doc benway]

The way I tend to look at it is that neither chakras nor dan tians exist in reality.

Both are useful, conceptual conventions that attempt to approximate reality.

Since each derives from a somewhat different paradigm, they are not equivalent.

Nevertheless, as you say there are significant parallels, as one would expect since both are pointing to human experience.

I find them to be most useful when worked with in their respective contexts rather than mixing and matching systems.

In a general way, I see both as an intersection between awareness, intention, and manifestation; portals through which we connect to deeper aspects of ourselves.

Words like regulator and battery are a bit too concrete and materialistic for my taste but I acknowledge that many find such models useful.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2018 by steve

[Limahong]

3 hours ago, amoyaan said:

Do you consider the dantiens to be essentially the same as the chakras?

 

Hi amoyaan,

 

Yes for me - in terms of the same domain of thoughts but in different languages.

 

3 hours ago, amoyaan said:

Obviously, the middle and upper dantiens seem to correspond with the location of the fourth (anhata) and sixth chakras (ajna) in the yogic system.

Does this mean the lower dantien is equivalent to the second chakra (svadhisthana)? Both have approximately the same location in the body.

 

For myself, I have made the corresponding alignment:

Lower dantien - chakras no. 1, 2 and 3

Middle dantien - chakras no. 4

Upper dantien - chakras no. 5, 6 and 7

 

This alignment has facilitated my flow of energy conceptually.

 

3 hours ago, amoyaan said:

Or are the chakras and dantiens different in terms of what they are and what they do?

 

Not different as such but expressed differently/culturally/linguistically/historically/... in words. I have the same feel for both when I am energized.

 

4 hours ago, amoyaan said:

My feel is the chakras are energy regulators and the dantiens serve as kind of batteries or storehouses for energy.

 

I am not too hung up on the dantiens/chakras now as compared to the time when I was less exposed/experienced. They are good mental models though.

 

I am still learning.

 

- LimA

[Astral Monk]

Not the same.

 

Dantiens dont exist until we establish them. They arent part of what we would call the medical energy body. They created for a specific purpose in alchemy. Basically they are temporary storage recepticals for subtle energy that allow forward progress--a platform from which to further develop. Which is why they arent part of qigong, which only moves energy efficiently.

 

Chakras are far more numerous and seem to be more like important energy points, which do exist in medical energy theory and qigong. We would do better to look for chakra parallels in those points--like huiyin, mingmen, baihui, and so on. These are focal points of energy that sometimes have special purposes and effects when stimulated.

 

However, dissenting opinion--it could be that the chakra system is also an external imposition. I read somewhere once the idea that it was some kind of energetic limiter ppl receive or create, like a self made energy cage. Chakras do extend well beyond the body into so-called etheric fields. If something like this were the case, they might be more like dantiens in the sense of having to be created and not being a native part of our energy anatomy.

 

8)

[oak]

16 hours ago, amoyaan said:

My feel is the chakras are energy regulators and the dantiens serve as kind of batteries or storehouses for energy.

 

Hi amoyaan,

 

What you wrote above makes sense to me and it seems that you've had some experiences and now you're trying to make some sense out of them.

About this matter I'm only going to talk about my experience but with some reservations. Concerning the upper and lower dantians (Shang, Xia) I've never experienced anything which would make me think they're not the same as the respective chakras (ajna, manipura). Concerning the middle dantien (Zhong) and the heart chakra (anahata) what I can tell you is that from what I've experienced they are not the same.The heart chakra is about deep spiritual experiences while the middle dantian seems to act like a energetical battery as you stated above.

 

I'm going to quote steve now because what he wrote makes alot of sense to me and I will tell you why:

 

12 hours ago, steve said:

I find them to be most useful when worked with in their respective contexts rather than mixing and matching systems.

 

I see people here mixing many chi gung systems and having experiences that afterwards they don't have a clue about what was that cause them. Did the creators of these chi kung systems lack the scientific method that they seem to lack so much? Don't think so. The advice that I read frequently in this forum of establishing a practice for 90 days (?) makes much sense to me.

 

Thanks for the topic.

[Jeff]

16 hours ago, steve said:

The way I tend to look at it is that neither chakras nor dan tians exist in reality.

Both are useful, conceptual conventions that attempt to approximate reality.

Since each derives from a somewhat different paradigm, they are not equivalent.

Nevertheless, as you say there are significant parallels, as one would expect since both are pointing to human experience.

I find them to be most useful when worked with in their respective contexts rather than mixing and matching systems.

In a general way, I see both as an intersection between awareness, intention, and manifestation; portals through which we connect to deeper aspects of ourselves.

Words like regulator and battery are a bit too concrete and materialistic for my taste but I acknowledge that many find such models useful.

 

 

 

Totally agree with Steve.

[gendao]

The dantian model seems to be more universal, while the chakras seem to be more arbitrary.  I do think they are nonetheless quite useful, but I'm not sure how "concrete" discrete chakras really are?  Perhaps the spine could rather be some sort of a "rainbow spectrum" that various chakra models simply approximate?

Quote

1. There's not just one chakra system in the original tradition, there are many.

The theory of the subtle body and its energy centers called cakras (or padmas, ādhāras, lakṣyas, etc.) comes from the tradition of Tantrik Yoga, which flourished from 600-1300 CE, and is still alive today. In mature Tantrik Yoga (after the year 900 or so), every one of the many branches of the tradition articulated a different chakra system, and some branches articulated more than one. Five-chakra systems, six-chakra systems, seven, nine, ten, fifteen, twenty-one, twenty-eight and more chakras are taught, depending on what text you're looking at. The seven- (or, technically, 6 + 1) chakra system that Western yogis know about is just one of many, and it became dominant around the 16th century (see point #4 below).

Having said that, there are a few centers which are found in all systems—specifically, chakras in the lower belly, the heart, and the crown of the head, since these are three places in the body where humans all over the world experience both emotional and spiritual phenomena. But apart from those three, there's huge variety in the chakra systems we find in the original literature.

4. The seven-chakra system popular today derives not from a scripture, but from a treatise written in 1577.

The chakra system Western yogis follow is that found in a Sanskrit text written by a guy named Pūrṇānanda Yati. He completed his text (the Ṣhaṭ-chakra-nirūpaṇa or 'Explanation of the six chakras', actually chapter six of a larger work) in the year 1577.

[dwai]

This book has some interesting concepts in it about how Chakras and TCM Meridian system overlap -- https://books.google.com/books?id=O-MfmwbEf5cC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=chakras+and+eight+extra+ordinary+meridians&source=bl&ots=9AngPqJ7E6&sig=_a-f4TCf5RtTCA8jpq8xd87lH_I&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiYxab0vO7YAhUCct8KHaMkCl44ChDoAQgoMAA#v=onepage&q=chakras and eight extra ordinary meridians&f=false

 

 

Imho, I find that the Dan tiens are essentially combination of chakras. LDT comprises of chakras 1,2 and 3. It is accessed at the location of 2.

 

MDT is 4 and 5 and accessed at 4.

 

UDT is 6 and 7 and accessed at 6.

 

I suspect that the theory being subscribed (Daoist or Yogic/Tantric) to also controls how we perceive these centers to behave, and how they might impact our energetic and mental/emotional states. But the primary purpose of these systems is identical.

 

It is about converting Ojas into Prana into Tejas. Of transmuting Tamas and Rajas into Sattva. After building up sufficient Sattva, to know one's True Self or Brahman. 

In Daoist terms, it is about transmuting Jing into Qi into Shen. After building up sufficient Shen, to know emptiness and Dao. 

 

Also all this is purely from the perspective of practical reality (dualistic).

[Limahong]

On 1/21/2018 at 7:27 AM, steve said:

Words like regulator and battery are a bit too concrete and materialistic for my taste but I acknowledge that many find such models useful.

 

Hi Steve,

 

Same taste-buds here. Words pertaining to mental models are useful in making sense and sensing - beyond which I am into the moments.

 

I flow with feelings when I am energized. But words that can synergize feelings can lead me into uncharted waters.

 

 

- LimA

Edited January 26, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[Mudfoot]

In this topic, it depends... 

Do you take the Heart center or the Yellow court, midway between your heart and navel,  as your MDT? 

 

And do you place the Manipura chakra at the navel or at the solar plexus? And the swadhiwhatever to be at the LDT or closer to the genitals/perineum? 

 

And do you place the LDT behind the navel or further down?  

 

All of these are possible locations, depending on teacher and tradition. 

 

The Ajna and the Niwan are generally located in the same spot, but I am certain you can find some source that disagree. 

 

In my practice, the LDT is not a chakra, it is an area between the chakras where Red Bindu is stored. But hey,  there is disagreement about that as well 😀

The Heart center would be a chakra, feeling similar to the other chakras. 

And the Ajna, well there it gets more complicated at least in my practice. 

 

Feel free to disagree. 

 

 

 

 

[Limahong]

On 1/21/2018 at 3:45 AM, amoyaan said:

Are the chakras and dantiens different in terms of what they are and what they do?

 

Hi amoyaan,

 

There are many interesting responses to your thread. Varied perspectives and respectable diversity.

 

My personal take - when a person has first-hand experiences with the chakras/dantiens, words may not capture the moments accurately/fully.

 

- LimA

 

 

 

 

[Aetherous]

It's cool to read the etymology and history of the word "chakra".

And the history of "dantian". Fabrizio Pregadio translated the first mention of the dantian from the Laozi Zhong Jing here.

Both of these concepts aren't as ancient as we might assume, and it's cool to see when they began and what existed before.

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, Aetherous said:

Both of these concepts aren't as ancient as we might assume, and it's cool to see when they began and what existed before.

 

Hi Aetherous,

 

As concepts we may think of chakras/dantiens along temporal/propositional/propagational lines.

 

But if we accept chakras/dantiens as entities within each of us, they are as young/old as we are - waiting to be tapped on. Yes/no?

 

- LimA

[Aetherous]

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

Hi Aetherous,

 

As concepts we may think of chakras/dantiens along temporal/propositional/propagational lines.

 

But if we accept chakras/dantiens as entities within each of us, they are as young/old as we are - waiting to be tapped on. Yes/no?

 

- LimA

 

I think they are only concepts, which point toward the reality of what's in us and how we function. I don't really find them as useful models.

[Limahong]

On 1/30/2018 at 9:46 AM, Aetherous said:

I think they are only concepts, which point toward the reality of what's in us and how we function. I don't really find them as useful models.

 

Hi Aetherous,

 

Concepts and models are delimiting - but we have to start from somewhere when searching for answers.

 

But once we learn to walk the nascent conceptual steps meaningfully/steadfastly, we may want to move into a chosen path - a road less traveled in search of self.

 

I find this enlightening -

 

 

- LimA

[dawei]

On 1/20/2018 at 7:14 PM, Limahong said:

 

For myself, I have made the corresponding alignment:

Lower dantien - chakras no. 1, 2 and 3

Middle dantien - chakras no. 4

Upper dantien - chakras no. 5, 6 and 7

 

From my past practice and experience, I'd say:

LDT: 1-2

MDT: 3-4

UDT: 5-7

 

Chakra 3 is the Yellow Court, where unprocessed emotions reside.... the heart, chakra 4, is processed emotions.   ergo, the MDT pair. 

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

From my past practice and experience, I'd say:

LDT: 1-2

MDT: 3-4

UDT: 5-7

 

Chakra 3 is the Yellow Court, where unprocessed emotions reside.... the heart, chakra 4, is processed emotions.   ergo, the MDT pair. 

There are also varying thoughts on where 3rd chakra is located. Some people think it is the solar plexus (and so did I). But, now I find that it is the navel. 

[Limahong]

16 minutes ago, dawei said:

Chakra 3 is the Yellow Court, where unprocessed emotions reside.... the heart, chakra 4, is processed emotions.   ergo, the MDT pair.

 

Hi dawei,

 

Apart from an association with 'processed emotions', chakra 4 is also a processor of emotions?

 

Is chakra 4 more than the heart - physically?

 

MDT does not stand alone. It is nothing without LDT and UDT?

 

- LimA

Edited February 1, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[dawei]

5 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi dawei,

 

Apart from an association with 'processed emotions', chakra 4 is also a processor of emotions?

 

Is chakra 4 more than the heart - physically?

 

MDT does not stand alone. It is nothing without LDT and UDT?

 

- LimA

 

yes, processor... seems inherent if they are processed there but good to be explicit on it.

 

sure, the heart is more than physical, as is our entire body, or mind...  

 

If this is a purely physical discussion then I'll agree...  when we get past that, then I can likely talk more. 

[dawei]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

There are also varying thoughts on where 3rd chakra is located. Some people think it is the solar plexus (and so did I). But, now I find that it is the navel. 

 

I did a practice where one passes energy between the solar plexus, heart and lungs.  UP and DOWN.   You isolate two to non-movement and then move one with energy; then pass it to the next stop.  

 

I think you will find the solar plexus. 

 

If you want, pass it downward to the navel...  is that the solar plexus ?

[wstein]

Very different, though both at (chi) energy constructs in the body.

 

Dantiens are energy storage centers where a reserve of energy can be stored for later use (and quick access).

 

Chakras are spots along the kundalini channel (goes along spine for the ones in the body) where energy of specific types (frequencies) leave the channel. The specific chakras correspond to physical organs in the body (mind, throat, heart, etc).

 

Dantians do not overlap chakras.

[Mudfoot]

7 hours ago, wstein said:

 

Dantians do not overlap chakras.

But where the influence of two chakras overlap, you will find a dantian. 

 

Again,  depending on where you believe they are situated,  and which function you assign to them. 

[Limahong]

9 hours ago, dawei said:

If this is a purely physical discussion then I'll agree...  when we get past that, then I can likely talk more. 

 

Hi dawei,

 

All along I have regarded the chakras and dantiens as belonging to physical conceptual models for (a) common-paged discussions and (b) experiential explorations.

 

Where complexity exits, such models can provide clarity and comprehension through visualizations.

 

Chakras and dantiens experiential explorations pertain to personal roads less traveled.

 

- LimA

[Mudfoot]

This cross-cultural model have a good fit for my practice. 

[windwalker]

up date from the same site..missed it in my first reading

 

"Huiyin (Meeting of the Yin): The lowest point of the Lower Dantian extends to the Huiyin CV-l point at the perineum. This point is located midway between the genitals (anterior Yin or Qianyin) and anus (posterior Yin or Houyin), traditionally known as the "Huiyin." The name "Huiyin" refers to the area on the body responsible for gathering and absorbing the Earth energy.

 

This area is responsible for gathering the Yin energy into the body and Lower Dantian area via the three Yin leg channels (Liver, Spleen, and Kidney), and is the intersecting point for the Governing Vessel, Conception Vessel and Thrusting Vessels. This area is sometimes known as the lower gate of the Taiji Pole, or the bottom gate of the Lower Chakra"

http://www.ichikung.com/html/dantians.php

 

I still hold that one should have a firm grasp of what ever practice they follow before comparing with other practices..