Is it true that focusing on developing your middle dantian (heart), also develops and refines the upper and lower dantians too?

[Ryan94]

I was recently told this by a Buddhist who practiced metta. Just wanted to know what everyone here thinks.

[thelerner]

Makes sense, though metta always seemed to me as much in the head as in the heart. 

 

Still, when working with energy, its good to end and settle at the lower dantien/hara. 

[silent thunder]

Loving kindness has always been the core of my Qi Gong forms.  The foundation.

It's slowly developed into the core of the rest of my life as well, though certain parts are still hard to penetrate, though looking back over the arch of mylife, it's very clear, the work is cumulative and inertia grows as the walls are dissolving.

[Limahong]

13 hours ago, Ryan94 said:

Just wanted to know what everyone here thinks.

 

Hi Ryan94,

 

I like to do parallel thinking by associating the dantians with the chakras thus:

Lower dantian ~ chakras 1, 2 and 3.

Middle dantian ~ chakras 4.

Upper dantain ~ chakras 5, 6 and 7.

 

My answer to your question - yes. Why? Middle dantian is the bridge.

 

- LimA

Edited January 26, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[Spotless]

The lower dantien is the heart of the root of the tree - from there upward the energies expand.

 

The foundation from there is less confusing and progress is much faster.

 

"focusing on developing"?

 

this assumes you have an idea upon what you are focusing and developing - this is a fools parade into a labyrinth - but the word alone - heart - it is like a siren calling.

 

What could possibly go wrong?

 

The bedrock of the LDT is in the fire and quiet - the steady earth energies and the pure energies.

One is not apt to lose oneself in false love and false compassion and concocted oneness.

 

The rest will unfold as will happen - the proud doer will thrive in focusing and developing anywhere - simply breath into the root and happen from there.

 

A strong root will be needed for the rest to fall away - for the rest to face falseness and idealistic child's play and indulgence in ones praise of ones good intentions.

 

The lower dantien does not have this - it is simple and yet a thousand times more powerful in healing us and dissolving our habituations than heart and head combined - it is what allows heart and head so much leeway in monkey world and the constant beatings that they subject the bodies to.

 

Own the LDT and the path is clear and you are ready for the winds and the tides. Man/Woman stand like mountains here.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Spotless

[Ryan94]

1 hour ago, Spotless said:

The lower dantien is the heart of the root of the tree - from there upward the energies expand.

 

The foundation from there is less confusing and progress is much faster.

 

"focusing on developing"?

 

this assumes you have an idea upon what you are focusing and developing - this is a fools parade into a labyrinth - but the word alone - heart - it is like a siren calling.

 

What could possibly go wrong?

 

The bedrock of the LDT is in the fire and quiet - the steady earth energies and the pure energies.

One is not apt to lose oneself in false love and false compassion and concocted oneness.

 

The rest will unfold as will happen - the proud doer will thrive in focusing and developing anywhere - simply breath into the root and happen from there.

 

A strong root will be needed for the rest to fall away - for the rest to face falseness and idealistic child's play and indulgence in ones praise of ones good intentions.

 

The lower dantien does not have this - it is simple and yet a thousand times more powerful in healing us and dissolving our habituations than heart and head combined - it is what allows heart and head so much leeway in monkey world and the constant beatings that they subject the bodies to.

 

Own the LDT and the path is clear and you are ready for the winds and the tides. Man/Woman stand like mountains here.

 

Do you know how to develop the lower dantian then? Does closing all the nine gates suffice?

[Spotless]

It does not require "knowing how to develop"

 

A good grounding in proper practice along with breath and attention and intention in the LDT will bear the fruit you seek.

 

The senses can be drawn through / to / into the LDT, there the fire burns away the recoil and addiction.

 

The great personalities of the head, the throat and the heart are not aroused and the solar plexus is not stirred to action - the adrenals are not bent to act and chemical systems are not put into swing.

 

But the root is being given all elements and from there everything is nourished and all currents receive well from the Heaven and the earth and nature. This abundance will soon enough create both a base of stored power and a fount of higher energies for the Middle Dan Tien and later the same will occur to the upper dantien.

 

When you own the mountain first you will not be like a needy hiker who is unprepared for the wind and the rain and falls to hiding and fighting the elements rather than thriving in the land that is made his/her own. Fear is laid to waste in the Fire of the mountain and futures are not fought in heady babble and love does not tear and rip.

 

You feel the pulse from the earth and heavens and all the creatures are your brother and sisters. There is nothing to fear on the mountain - or anywhere.

 

But beyond all the metaphor - from the base the trunk is bigger and far more expansive than is assumed and this is true in all the energies and subtle bodies. The idea of orchestrating this by oneself is as preposterous as the idea that one is by oneself in otherness.

 

We think in terms of higher and lower as good, better, best - a tree with no roots and a shallow foundation is a dead tree lying on its side and withering. Like a chick drawn to flying - the sky calls but all the bones and muscle need to form before jumping out of the nest happens well.

 

 

 

[Aetherous]

I think there is some truth to that.

More so than thinking of it as being like the heart area of the physical body, I think it's good that metta is focused on the elevated feelings and intentions of infinite (directed toward literally every being without exception) compassion and loving-kindness. Those genuine feelings are much more important than meditating on the physical area of the heart, although there is resonance with these feelings in that area.

[thelerner]

4 hours ago, Spotless said:

It does not require "knowing how to develop"

 

A good grounding in proper practice along with breath and attention and intention in the LDT will bear the fruit you seek.

 

The senses can be drawn through / to / into the LDT, there the fire burns away the recoil and addiction.

 

The great personalities of the head, the throat and the heart are not aroused and the solar plexus is not stirred to action - the adrenals are not bent to act and chemical systems are not put into swing.

 

But the root is being given all elements and from there everything is nourished and all currents receive well from the Heaven and the earth and nature. This abundance will soon enough create both a base of stored power and a fount of higher energies for the Middle Dan Tien and later the same will occur to the upper dantien.

 

When you own the mountain first you will not be like a needy hiker who is unprepared for the wind and the rain and falls to hiding and fighting the elements rather than thriving in the land that is made his/her own. Fear is laid to waste in the Fire of the mountain and futures are not fought in heady babble and love does not tear and rip..

 

 

What a great post.  Useful and concise, practical yet poetical,

keeping with the imagery of the tradition. 

[exorcist_1699]

If you are a woman, then it is partly true : Using middle dantian ( refer not to the heart) as a starting point, and it initializes  something from lower dantian . Otherwise it is doubtful . 

[寒月 Hanyue]

On 26/01/2018 at 2:51 AM, Ryan94 said:

Is it true that focusing on developing your middle dantian (heart), also develops and refines the upper and lower dantians too?

I was recently told this by a Buddhist who practiced metta. Just wanted to know what everyone here thinks.

 

Not all Daoist lines place or associate the zhongdantian (central/middle dantian) with the heart, or the heart as being a dantian. Some do, some don't. This can annoy people that want everything to line up and fit neat boxes, but there you go. And no it doesn't mean one tradition is "correct" and others "false", and which is which.... Over the years I've been exposed to several dantian models, all of which follow the internal logic of the tradition that used them.

 

Similar to 'chakra' models (of which there are plenty) used in different yogic and Buddhist traditions. 

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by 寒月 Hanyue

[Limahong]

11 hours ago, 寒月 Hanyue said:

Not all Daoist lines place or associate the zhongdantian (central/middle dantian) with the heart, or the heart as being a dantian. ... no it doesn't mean one tradition is "correct" and others "false"...

 

Hi Hanyue,

 

Very good.

 

11 hours ago, 寒月 Hanyue said:

 

Similar to 'chakra' models (of which there are plenty) used in different yogic and Buddhist traditions.

 

Great.

Respectfully to his/her respective own.

Live and let live.

 

- LimA

Edited January 31, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[dawei]

I've read this thread many times and wondered how binary questions can arise in regards to a destiny path.

 

Either you have the destiny to pursue it and get there or you do not.   No amount of practice and threads will force what destiny has not decided... that being said, I'm ready to comment.

 

In general, and typical, the energy work regime is to do, bottom-up.   In such cases, start with a reliable MCO (microcosmic orbit) and see where it goes.

 

I've meet plenty of folks who have side-skipped that lower development (cuz it is naturally developed) and worked with the heart....  In Qigong and Medical Qigong, the heart is the General, calling the troops movements.   But that alone still has to be understood within some context.

 

The point is: one is where they are; what they feel; what they can develop.... then, what they hope to develop.  Without a destined feeling about it, one may be treading water.  when you arrive at the shore, then you can ask and try something.  

 

Maybe ask yourself: Are you at sea (treading water) or shore (on two feet) ?

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

In general, and typical, the energy work regime is to do, bottom-up. 

 

Hi dawei,

 

A tree destined to grow tall has deep/good roots.

 

- LimA

[dawei]

15 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi dawei,

 

A tree destined to grow tall has deep/good roots.

 

- LimA

 

yes... but on a more primordial level, ''bottom' doesn't necessarily equate to roots, IMO.   It would seem it matters more, where the heart is rooted.   JMO. 

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, dawei said:

yes... but on a more primordial level, ''bottom' doesn't necessarily equate to roots, IMO.   It would seem it matters more, where the heart is rooted.   JMO.

 

Hi dawei,

 

Deep roots are not to be equated with a 'rooted' me, as a person, if I am destined to grow and develop on a primordial plane.

 

As such a person, am I rootless when my heart is in the wrong place.

 

- LimA

[dawei]

your heart is always rooted in a place.   where it is rooted, the heart knows.   There is no need for ethics of right or wrong. 

[liminal_luke]

If you want to do metta practice, do metta practice.  It might not develop the lower and upper dan tiens but so what?  You can devote some additional time to the lower dan tien separately.  As far as the higher energies go, I`d let that go for now.  (Trust that when the time comes, you`ll know it.)  No need to make metta practice do all things; if it generates metta, that`s enough.

Edited February 1, 2018 by liminal_luke

[Limahong]

16 minutes ago, dawei said:

your heart is always rooted in a place.   where it is rooted, the heart knows.   There is no need for ethics of right or wrong.

 

Hi dawei,

 

Yes - no right or wrong with words. But you feel it is right and you are at peace?

 

- LimA

 

 

[dawei]

4 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi dawei,

 

Yes - no right or wrong with words. But you feel it is right and you are at peace?

 

- LimA

 

 

 

No need for emotional responses or innuendo...   if the heart is in the right place, no need for further exposition.

 

And 'right place' is not a physical nor emotional place...  I'm still on a different plane of speaking beyond the physical.

[Limahong]

20 hours ago, dawei said:

And 'right place' is not a physical nor emotional place... I'm still on a different plane of speaking beyond the physical.

 

Hi dawei,

 

Is it because you are now moving (or have moved) east per this flow stream ~ Jing => Chi => Shen ~ ?

 

 

 

 

Or are you raising up north ~ thus?

 

 

 

From your postings thus far, what you have not said is more important to me than what you have said. Why? Your silence has provided me an opportunity to go in search of my original self - undefined and unaffected by you.

 

Thank you for your presence and absence - they have helped me to move with self confidence on my own road less traveled. Travel well yourself on your own road.

 

- LimA

Edited February 2, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[dawei]

6 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi dawei,

 

Is it because you are now moving (or have moved) east per this flow stream ~ Jing => Chi => Shen ~ ?

 

I think I answered that, as you quoted me.  

[Daolander1]

Before I start commenting, please accept already my apologies in case i offend your ideas. I do not sign in often, but if I do i focus mostly on one thread to see errors and use them in my classes as examples. Don't worry, I do not use your names. But here is a compensation for my use of your thoughts:

 

In daoism dantian are not just focal points but they are part of the engine of being a person in the world, and of your relationship with the supernatural. The middle dantian corresponds in the body with the zhengqi, and thus with how you relate to other beings through your posture. It is also the source of taiji thinking of the upper body, in your moral social life and as a moral esthetics in martial art. it is not a chemical or pseyuso chemical event. All alchemical events in daoism use chemical language but are about personhood.

The development of the middle dantian depends on the development of the lower dantian and the embodyment of the person. You lose connection with both when focus is on energy or spirit (breath), because it is to abstract and causes mixing of substances that should not be mixed to keep the alchemical proces going. 

The middle dantian is associated with the heart because both are home to the shen-awareness. Shen awareness is flourishing as a result of the flourishing of jing-coherence and qi-perfection. When all three flourish the last alchemical stage can be entered. One does not transform in the other. The three treasures should be kept as one, meaning unified as one, not transformed from one to the other, that is part of christian and islamic alchemy. 

Mixing the dantian up with chakra's is a bit of a confusing point. Colours and functions between chakras in sofar as used in daoism differ from those in Indian beliefs from the 19th century onwards, but also with those from before this time (and they also differ from each other). Chakra theory is a highly apologetic ideology, and it looks like dantian theory also turns into one by equalizing meanings in an unsubstantial universalism. It is as if culture doesn't matter. But culture is what determines the outcome becasue culture describes a worldview and a sense of reality within that worldview. 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I’d say no.

 

Afaik one is supposed to build from the ground up, like a house. When the house is good to live in and store your reserves in you use it. When you need to dip into your reserves you do so from the top.

Analogy: you are human between heaven and earth, you live off the earth and what heaven feeds it to grow. So first you make sure you can stand on the ground, the study yourself while you study the earth and once you have built considerable relationship to the earth you can gain from heaven and study your relationship with both of them.

 

So when you use energy you get it from the sky, through your connection to the earth and it is expressed out of you in a similarly descending direction.

 

This is probably overly simplified and only corresponding to where i’m at and in no way a final thing. I’m still learning from earth and it is slow.

[Limahong]

5 hours ago, Daolander1 said:

But culture is what determines the outcome because culture describes a worldview and a sense of reality within that worldview.

 

Culture ~ yes... but re only certain part(s) of the world?