Do some likes/dislikes last forever?

[s1va]

I am not talking about all likes and dislikes.  Yes, some of them change or go away.  For instance, I did not like and couldn't go near certain vegetables while growing up.  I love some of these same vegetables now.  Many of the likes and dislikes seem to arise from attachments and desires, but some of them seem to be ingrained very deep inside, as part of the core personality.  May be these are part of the subconscious/unconscious or they reside even deeper as latent impressions or tendencies.  These likes and dislikes seem to shape almost all actions (or inaction) a normal person engages on, also shaping the results and the path ahead. 

 

Next thing I expect to hear, 'Like and dislike will always be there.  But, they don't affect a realized or enlightened person who does not identify  with body/mind.  Just watch the likes and dislikes, witness, be present, mindful, we don't need to act on them, etc.'  I get all of that.  Why should it matter then?  Perhaps it matters or it doesn't.  But, the choices a person makes and the actions he/she engages, are in many ways driven by the likes and dislikes.  Choices and actions have influence not only on us but everything and everyone around us.  Some decide to sit in a cave after enlightenment and be in bliss forever, some others come down from the mountain or hermitage to serve and teach others.  Not that one is right and the other is wrong, such decisions are ultimately made on likes and dislikes or inner tendencies.  Those that come out and teach also have their own methods, what they think works best for others, based on their likes/dislikes or what worked best for them!

 

Someone who has overcome desires and attachments still seems to have deeply ingrained innate tendencies like, likes and dislike towards certain things they can't overcome.  Gods and immortals also seem to have likes and dislikes of their own.  Even if the 'I' identification is not there, a human is still acting through the body/mind and this equipment has likes and dislikes.  Therefore the question, does some likes and dislikes last forever and will always be limiting factors? Are these just part of each one of us or how we are built?   I would like to see what Taoism or other traditions say about such tendencies and the likes/dislikes.

 

 

[Bud Jetsun]

Appreciation of Now exactly as it is is how to show kindness to yourself.  

 

Whom or what performing the liking or disliking?   

 

A whole of whatever reality may Be requires no divisions or categorizing to appreciate. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[s1va]

40 minutes ago, Bud Jetsun said:

Appreciation of Now exactly as it is is how to show kindness to yourself.  

 

Whom or what performing the liking or disliking?   

 

A whole of whatever reality may Be requires no divisions or categorizing to appreciate. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

Thanks. I am being kind to myself

Love.

[Boundlesscostfairy]

Well, like you said things change, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse just like yin and yang.. but be sure you can prepare for the negative and therby get over it

[Rickie]

Likes and dislikes will last forever if you hang on to them that long.

[Fa Xin]

 

Perhaps having a preference is only limiting if you allow it to be. 

 

I prefer a certain cold drink with my meals. Trying to “break this habit” or instead only drinking plain water seems a bit too forcing... why bother? I would think it would only be limiting if I carry it with me. 

 

“Is it right to have this drink? It has a lot of sugar. Does it appease my senses? Could I stop if I wanted to? Maybe I should stick with plain water and be natural. ”

 

Or the flip side...

 

”I want this drink. I must have this. I don’t desire many things. Can’t I have this one? I don’t like anything else. “

 

Such thoughts are the limiting factor, not the drink or the like itself. Just how much my mind hangs onto it. 

 

Just my 02

[dwai]

I think like and dislike is okay as long as we don’t cling to them. For example, you have a cold and you can’t get yourself to drink a milkshake. Leaving aside the physiological aspects of why, you “dislike” milkshakes at that point. Should you continue to dislike milkshakes when you are feeling better, just because it has become a “habit”, or if your identity depends on being the “guy who hates milkshakes”, then it will become a neurosis (or whatever technical term is applicable).

 

I hope I made sense

[s1va]

Thanks  everyone for the responses so far.  I guess  maybe I did not express or state clearly in OP, what I was looking for.  This is not just about the like/dislike like for a drink/food that is tied to clinging or some limiting factor.  I was talking about the deeper ones (arising from subconscious tendencies/vasanas, possibly from  the past or a prior birth), which seem to run for lifetime, perhaps from birth - certain types of like/dislike without any rational reason as to why.  May be  I need to come up with some good examples.  This is why I mentioned about Gods and immortals also having certain likes and dislikes.  So, it's not entirely about clinging also.  Anyway, the responses so far, got me thinking about some other things.

 

It's late for me now. I will add more sometime tomorrow.   Look forward to more responses.

  

[Gerard]

First thing I was told by Pannya, the abbot of this monastery:

 

http://bodhitreemonastery.org/

 

I have them like many of us do.

 

Hard to get rid of by the way.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Gerard

[Lost in Translation]

I like. I dislike.

I am aware that I like. I am aware that I dislike.

Like or dislike is not the problem.

Lack of awareness is the problem.

[s1va]

8 hours ago, Gerard said:

First thing I was told by Pannya, the abbot of this monastery:

 

http://bodhitreemonastery.org/

 

I have them like many of us do.

 

Hard to get rid of by the way.

 

 

 

 

 

That sounds like a right approach or way to go about it.  To admit that one has them and to be aware that they are hard to get rid of.  This should help work around them or to use them in productive ways to serve others.

[s1va]

7 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

I like. I dislike.

I am aware that I like. I am aware that I dislike.

Like or dislike is not the problem.

Lack of awareness is the problem.

 

Neither like/dislike, nor lack of awareness of them is a problem to one that lives in the present moment always.  This post is not about a problem.  It is not describing like/dislike as a problem and asking for a solution.  The question that the post raised was about, some likes and dislikes lasting forever.  The origins of such likes/dislikes that last forever.  This is not about labeling something as good or bad or as problem and look for a solution to that problem.  I thought I communicated this clearly on the original post.  May be it's not as clear to everyone as I expected it to be. Anyway, thanks for the responses.

[Jeff]

If you have likes or dislikes, then you have subscious processes that are whipsawing your mind back and forth. Habitual tendencies are a sign of lack of mental clarity.

 

From Buddha in the Dhammapada...

 

Like a hunted hare you run,
The pursuer of desire pursued, Harried from life to life.
O seeker!
Give up desire,
Shake off your chains.
You have come out of the hollow
Into the clearing.
The clearing is empty.

[s1va]

-

Edited January 31, 2018 by s1va

[Lost in Translation]

17 hours ago, s1va said:

Therefore the question, does some likes and dislikes last forever and will always be limiting factors? Are these just part of each one of us or how we are built?

 

Do some likes and dislikes last forever?

 

Forever? I don't know. A lifetime? Most certainly! There are things that you will always like and always dislike while you live in mortal flesh. For example you like air, and food, and warmth; dislike pain, and hunger, and cold. These won't change unless you have some form of fundamental psychological breakdown, which is highly unlikely. 

 

Will these always be limiting factors?

 

Ah, the real question! You have the power to choose. You always have the power to choose. Your likes and dislikes never need to limit you. If they do then that is also by your choice. This is why awareness is so important. Once you are aware that you choose to be limited by a personal like/dislike then you immediately can choose to end that limitation. But if you lack awareness of the interaction between like/dislike and choice - if you assume a dislike is a limit and a like is a mandate - then you are stuck.

 

Hope this helps.

[s1va]

15 minutes ago, Jeff said:

If you have likes or dislikes, then you have subscious processes that are whipsawing your mind back and forth. Habitual tendencies are a sign of lack of mental clarity.

 

From Buddha in the Dhammapada...

 

Like a hunted hare you run,
The pursuer of desire pursued, Harried from life to life.
O seeker!
Give up desire,
Shake off your chains.
You have come out of the hollow
Into the clearing.
The clearing is empty.

 

Thank you.  I was looking for the triggers from deep inside that cause some of these -- whether it is subconscious or tendencies.

 

About the giving up desire part, I am not really sure.  Those that have given up desires also seem to have likes/dislikes -- sometimes sharp likes/dislikes.  Anyway, if such subconscious tendencies are whipsawing the mind and causing such things as desires, then how does letting go of desires help with this? To me, certain like/dislike seem to last forever.  Something like limitations which we just accept and work with.  What are your thoughts?

[s1va]

11 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Do some likes and dislikes last forever?

 

Forever? I don't know. A lifetime? Most certainly! There are things that you will always like and always dislike while you live in mortal flesh. For example you like air, and food, and warmth; dislike pain, and hunger, and cold. These won't change unless you have some form of fundamental psychological breakdown, which is highly unlikely. 

 

Will these always be limiting factors?

 

Ah, the real question! You have the power to choose. You always have the power to choose. Your likes and dislikes never need to limit you. If they do then that is also by your choice. This is why awareness is so important. Once you are aware that you choose to be limited by a personal like/dislike then you immediately can choose to end that limitation. But if you lack awareness of the interaction between like/dislike and choice - if you assume a dislike is a limit and a like is a mandate - then you are stuck.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Awareness does not absolve or end the limiting factor. The limiting factor will continue to be there. The awareness will just help not to get caught up with that as an issue.  The awareness can help to work around limitations. 

 

I am not saying awareness does not help.  You are offering solution to those who are struck, which is good.  But this is not about that.   I have  stated  myself, being present, witness or aware as part of the original post.  We also don't have power to always choose.  We have the power to surrender and accept things as they are.  

 

This post is about like/dislike continuing after such complete acceptance. 

 

 

[dwai]

13 hours ago, s1va said:

Thanks  everyone for the responses so far.  I guess  maybe I did not express or state clearly in OP, what I was looking for.  This is not just about the like/dislike like for a drink/food that is tied to clinging or some limiting factor.  I was talking about the deeper ones (arising from subconscious tendencies/vasanas, possibly from  the past or a prior birth), which seem to run for lifetime, perhaps from birth - certain types of like/dislike without any rational reason as to why.  May be  I need to come up with some good examples.  This is why I mentioned about Gods and immortals also having certain likes and dislikes.  So, it's not entirely about clinging also.  Anyway, the responses so far, got me thinking about some other things.

 

It's late for me now. I will add more sometime tomorrow.   Look forward to more responses.

  

There is a statement that not even all deities are "enlightened" per se. So it is not unusual to find that deities have likes and dislikes too.  When I responded to your OP, I was thinking about past life Samskaras, etc. But those samskaras remain only until one is fully awakened.

 

It seems awakening is not enough. There has to be a clearing too...falling away of the vasanas/samskaras completely. That said, it seems that the prarabdha (already set in motion) karma has to play out, simply because of the condition of the body existing. 

So, some of these will show up and then the "free one" recognizes them as they rise, and takes no action. 

[Jeff]

17 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Thank you.  I was looking for the triggers from deep inside that cause some of these -- whether it is subconscious or tendencies.

 

About the giving up desire part, I am not really sure.  Those that have given up desires also seem to have likes/dislikes -- sometimes sharp likes/dislikes.  Anyway, if such subconscious tendencies are whipsawing the mind and causing such things as desires, then how does letting go of desires help with this? To me, certain like/dislike seem to last forever.  Something like limitations which we just accept and work with.  What are your thoughts?

 

A like or dislike is exactly the same as a "desire".  Any preference or avoidance are in the same camp. If they have sharp likes/dislikes then they really have not given up anything.  They are just pushing it back in their subconscious and it is avoiding the issue.

 

Could call it spiritual bypassing if you want.

[s1va]

Just now, Jeff said:

 

A like or dislike is exactly the same as a "desire".  Any preference or avoidance are in the same camp. If they have sharp likes/dislikes then they really have not given up anything.  They are just pushing it back in their subconscious and it is avoiding the issue.

 

Could call it spiritual bypassing if you want.

 

I am not sure whether all likes/dislikes and preferences are due to desires.  

 

Are you stating that one who has given up desires have absolutely no likes/dislikes, therefore no preference on any choice they make or any action they engage upon?

 

Let's take a food example itself .  If someone did not like chocolate for whatever reason from birth, they simply can't eat it (but no physical allergies or issues).  Does this dislike arise out of desire in the first place? It could be because of some subconscious tendency as you stated on the other post.  If this person has overcome all desires, does that mean his dislike for chocolates is gone, and he has no preference towards it now?

[s1va]

15 minutes ago, dwai said:

There is a statement that not even all deities are "enlightened" per se. So it is not unusual to find that deities have likes and dislikes too.  When I responded to your OP, I was thinking about past life Samskaras, etc. But those samskaras remain only until one is fully awakened.

 

It seems awakening is not enough. There has to be a clearing too...falling away of the vasanas/samskaras completely. That said, it seems that the prarabdha (already set in motion) karma has to play out, simply because of the condition of the body existing. 

So, some of these will show up and then the "free one" recognizes them as they rise, and takes no action. 

 

Yes, I agree that awakening is not enough.  I am not quite sure, even falling away of all tendencies (vasanas), is enough to make all likes/dislikes to disappear.  As long as their is division as individuals or separate life forms (The 10000 that originally came from Dao), it seems like some likes and dislikes will be there for each one of us to retain our individuality. 

 

If someone has no likes or dislikes or any sort of preferences, perhaps he has merged with the source (whatever that be), and does not retain any form of sperate identity or form such as a individual person or a deity.  What do you think?

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Yes, I agree that awakening is not enough.  I am not quite sure, even falling away of all tendencies (vasanas), is enough to make all likes/dislikes to disappear.  As long as their is division as individuals or separate life forms (The 10000 that originally came from Dao), it seems like some likes and dislikes will be there for each one of us to retain our individuality. 

 

If someone has no likes or dislikes or any sort of preferences, perhaps he has merged with the source (whatever that be), and does not retain any form of sperate identity or form such as a individual person or a deity.  What do you think?

I find my likes and dislikes losing their "power". They still exist but they don't bother me much. I'm just a nobody. Who knows how it is/was for great sages like Ramana Maharshi?

 

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

I am not sure whether all likes/dislikes and preferences are due to desires.  

 

Are you stating that one who has given up desires have absolutely no likes/dislikes, therefore no preference on any choice they make or any action they engage upon?

 

Let's take a food example itself .  If someone did not like chocolate for whatever reason from birth, they simply can't eat it (but no physical allergies or issues).  Does this dislike arise out of desire in the first place? It could be because of some subconscious tendency as you stated on the other post.  If this person has overcome all desires, does that mean his dislike for chocolates is gone, and he has no preference towards it now?

 

I am stating that likes = desires, and dislikes = avoidance.  Same "mental thing", just opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

If someone is theoretically totally clear, there would be no preference and the decision would be more based upon utility/efficency. If someone disliked chocolate (or more likely the inverse and loved it), with mental clarity there would be more indifference. The same issue with a drug addict, with mental clarity the addiction would just naturally drop. If you see someone who is addicted in general, it means they have not realized (or gotten control of) their subconscious issues around that addiction.

[s1va]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

I find my likes and dislikes losing their "power". They still exist but they don't bother me much. I'm just a nobody. Who knows how it is/was for great sages like Ramana Maharshi?

 

 

It's not about bothering, but about the existence of likes and dislikes -- without labeling them.  Ramana Maharishi seemed to have some strong preferences about the method of self inquiry being the direct and most effective path.  It is certainly based on his subconscious tendencies and his own likes/dislikes.  It's not about, if it's right or wrong or whether it bothered him anyway.  I am sure none of this bothered him. Nevertheless, he still had his preferences and likes and dislikes just like any other person.  Granted, he was not in the sway of them. 

[dwai]

14 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

It's not about bothering, but about the existence of likes and dislikes -- without labeling them.  Ramana Maharishi seemed to have some strong preferences about the method of self inquiry being the direct and most effective path.  It is certainly based on his subconscious tendencies and his own likes/dislikes.  It's not about, if it's right or wrong or whether it bothered him anyway.  I am sure none of this bothered him. Nevertheless, he still had his preferences and likes and dislikes just like any other person.  Granted, he was not in the sway of them. 

 

My friend and I were talking about this (in context of Nidhidhyasana). We should be able to tell between wants and needs. If there is "like/dislike", it is a want. A desire (just like Jeff pointed out). Nidhidhyasana is to see each like/dislike as they arise and avoid negate them consciously. 

 

For instance, he spoke about the issue of food habits or drinking alcohol. Do you want it? Do you need it? For instance, some people might need meat from a physiological basis. But for most it is a "want" (a like or preference). So then see what happens when you actively deny yourself it. Do you feel it negatively affects your life? 

 

We also know of masters like Nisargadatta Maharaj being heavy smokers. Swami Chinmayananda used to use snuff (tobacco). 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by dwai