Do some likes/dislikes last forever?

[s1va]

22 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I am stating that likes = desires, and dislikes = avoidance.  Same "mental thing", just opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

If someone is theoretically totally clear, there would be no preference and the decision would be more based upon utility/efficency. If someone disliked chocolate (or more likely the inverse and loved it), with mental clarity there would be more indifference. The same issue with a drug addict, with mental clarity the addiction would just naturally drop. If you see someone who is addicted in general, it means they have not realized (or gotten control of) their subconscious issues around that addiction.

 

I get the part about drug addict lacking mental clarity and in grip of desires.  You also brought up cigarette smoker or drug addict in Non-dual topic stating, such a person cannot be in Non-dual state.  While some others did not agree with this, after some thought it sounded right to me.  A smoker cannot be considered as a person who has given up desires.

 

But, for likes and dislikes, where do we draw the line.  If someone just likes to drink a cup of coffee in the morning, does this mean the person is under the grip of desires.  Some people seem to have a distaste towards certain tasks, like washing dishes, but are able to do other things just fine.

 

Does not some of our preferences and like/dislike make each one of us what we are?  Separate individuals.  When the one came from Dao, and it became two & three, and then the moment it became 10,000.  Each of the 10,000 has a unique personality, meaning some types of preferences, likes and dislikes.  Unless, this all goes back into the Dao, loses the form and separation as  individual, some of the factors that go into making each of the 10,000 to be unique must continue to be, right? 

 

If there are absolutely no preferences of any sort, then there is no difference for that to be from Dao.  Even at the level of male/female, there has to be some preferences or likes and dislikes. 

[s1va]

12 minutes ago, dwai said:

We also know of masters like Nisargadatta Maharaj being heavy smokers. Swami Chinmayananda used to use snuff (tobacco). 

 

 

 

 

 

Per Jeff's statements, one that is addicted (to smoking or drugs or anything) has not overcome desires.  I agree with this assessment.  There is no other way to look at heavy smokers.  No disrespect to Nisargadatta Maharaj.  If there is addiction, I don't think that person has overcome all desires.  There are subconscious tendencies that cause this desire, which manifests as heavy smoking. We can argue that he was a heavy smoker, but not addicted.  When it comes to smoking, I can't agree with this. 

 

I agree with the part where you wrote about want and needs.  But, how can heavy smoking ever be considered as a need, considering all of us know it is injurious to the body?

Edited January 31, 2018 by s1va

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Per Jeff's statements, one that is addicted (to smoking or drugs or anything) has not overcome desires.  I agree with this assessment.  There is no other way to look at heavy smokers.  No disrespect to Nisargadatta Maharaj.  If there is addiction, I don't think that person has overcome all desires.  There are subconscious tendencies that cause this desire, which manifests as heavy smoking. We can argue that he was a heavy smoker, but not addicted.  When it comes to smoking, I can't agree with this. 

 

I agree with the part where you wrote about want and needs.  But, how can heavy smoking ever be considered as a need, considering all of us know it is injurious to the body?

I've not met Nisargadatta Maharaj in person, but per all reports, he was considered enlightened. Swami Chinmayananda was considered enlightened. There are many buddhist masters who are considered enlightened and have/had drinking habits, smoking habits, etc.

 

Reading his teachings have had a HUGE impact on me. I don't think I'm qualified to judge people like him. I don't think awakening has anything to do with how the personality continues to behave. There are plenty of stories of crazy wisdom type awakened masters through the ages.

[s1va]

21 minutes ago, dwai said:

I've not met Nisargadatta Maharaj in person, but per all reports, he was considered enlightened. Swami Chinmayananda was considered enlightened. There are many buddhist masters who are considered enlightened and have/had drinking habits, smoking habits, etc.

 

Reading his teachings have had a HUGE impact on me. I don't think I'm qualified to judge people like him. I don't think awakening has anything to do with how the personality continues to behave. There are plenty of stories of crazy wisdom type awakened masters through the ages.

 

It's not about judging them.  But, if we make certain deductions such as 'wants = desires', or 'likes = desires', 'addiction = desires'.  We are just applying these deductions uniformly irrespective of who engaged in those action.  Just because someone that is enlightened has done certain thing, it cannot be accepted as right action, just by virtue of that.  I understand that It is also subjective, whether they are really addicted to these substances.  One can still use them heavily and say they are not addicted, and maybe they are not.  There is no way for me to know.  It is well known fact that Osho used laughing gas (nitrous oxide) several times.  He is also considered enlightened and I have great respect towards him and his teachings.

 

Reading the teachings of these masters had huge impact on me also.  I still read their teachings as needed, and it still has huge impact on me.  I think there is something to learn from everyone.  Like a famous master said once, "There is something I learn from everyone I meet, some teach me 'what to do' and some others teach me 'what not to do' in life".  He went on to say, "I think those that teach me what not to do, are just as important as the ones that teach me what to do".   So, this is in no way a disrespect to any of them. Not just the masters, I would agree judging anyone is not the right thing to do, such an action is a result of desire.  

Edited January 31, 2018 by s1va

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

I get the part about drug addict lacking mental clarity and in grip of desires.  You also brought up cigarette smoker or drug addict in Non-dual topic stating, such a person cannot be in Non-dual state.  While some others did not agree with this, after some thought it sounded right to me.  A smoker cannot be considered as a person who has given up desires.

 

But, for likes and dislikes, where do we draw the line.  If someone just likes to drink a cup of coffee in the morning, does this mean the person is under the grip of desires.  Some people seem to have a distaste towards certain tasks, like washing dishes, but are able to do other things just fine.

 

Does not some of our preferences and like/dislike make each one of us what we are?  Separate individuals.  When the one came from Dao, and it became two & three, and then the moment it became 10,000.  Each of the 10,000 has a unique personality, meaning some types of preferences, likes and dislikes.  Unless, this all goes back into the Dao, loses the form and separation as  individual, some of the factors that go into making each of the 10,000 to be unique must continue to be, right? 

 

If there are absolutely no preferences of any sort, then there is no difference for that to be from Dao.  Even at the level of male/female, there has to be some preferences or likes and dislikes. 

 

Ongoing clarity is really sort of a never ending process. The concept of "grip of desires" is relative. On your cup of coffee example, I guess the question is can you go without it or not? If you can drop it, then no big deal..if you can't, then there is obviously an underlying issue.

 

Definitely agree that preferences are what make us individuals, or a 10,000 thing. But, if you see yourself as that individual with those preferences, you are definitely not even the One, or Dao.  Realizing the Dao, is not about having a preference or not. It is about the attachment to that preference. If you are addicted to smoking and cant stop yourself, then certainly in those moments of smoking you are not residing in the Dao.

[dwai]

28 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

It's not about judging them.  But, if we make certain deductions such as 'wants = desires', or 'likes = desires', 'addiction = desires'.  We are just applying these deductions uniformly irrespective of who engaged in those action.  Just because someone that is enlightened has done certain thing, it cannot be accepted as right action, just by virtue of that.  I understand that It is also subjective, whether they are really addicted to these substances.  One can still use them heavily and say they are not addicted, and maybe they are not.  There is no way for me to know.  It is well known fact that Osho used laughing gas (nitrous oxide) several times.  He is also considered enlightened and I have great respect towards him and his teachings.

 

Reading the teachings of these masters had huge impact on me also.  I still read their teachings as needed, and it still has huge impact on me.  I think there is something to learn from everyone.  Like a famous master said once, "There is something I learn from everyone I meet, some teach me 'what to do' and some others teach me 'what not to do' in life".  He went on to say, "I think those that teach me what not to do, are just as important as the ones that teach me what to do".   So, this is in no way a disrespect to any of them. Not just the masters, I would agree judging anyone is not the right thing to do, such an action is a result of desire.  

Agreed 

[ilumairen]

24 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Ongoing clarity is really sort of a never ending process. The concept of "grip of desires" is relative. On your cup of coffee example, I guess the question is can you go without it or not? If you can drop it, then no big deal..if you can't, then there is obviously an underlying issue.

 

Definitely agree that preferences are what make us individuals, or a 10,000 thing. But, if you see yourself as that individual with those preferences, you are definitely not even the One, or Dao.  Realizing the Dao, is not about having a preference or not. It is about the attachment to that preference. If you are addicted to smoking and cant stop yourself, then certainly in those moments of smoking you are not residing in the Dao.

Then where is one residing? 

[s1va]

When I started this topic, I was generally thinking about lot of mundane things.  I heard some kids use the word boring now and then.  Certain tasks seem to be boring to each one of us.  What is this boring? or why the lack of interest in certain tasks, while there is no such thing with some others.  Is this about desire or not being present?  When I asked myself this question, I had to conclude that this seems to go deeper than awareness or being present in the 'now' or this moment.  One can be totally present and aware in the moment, absence of any desires or thoughts and still have a general dislike or aversion towards certain tasks or activities.    

 

In the total absence of desires, it seems like there can still be detachment from the world or external things.  Not having the inclination towards engaging in certain actions.  Also, not bothered about such detachment or feel perfectly fine about that (for the most part).  This is why I stated on the OP, certain masters deciding to stay on the cave after enlightenment just be immersed on bliss.  I am not inclined to debate about whether such action is right or wrong.  I was wondering about the cause for certain boring, and also relate that to detachment to see if they all spring from the same causes.

[Jeff]

28 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Then where is one residing? 

 

When caught up in cravings and addiction, one is based in the (local) mind.  As the Tao Te Ching states...

 

FORTY-SIX

When the Tao is present in the universe,

The horses haul manure.

When the Tao is absent from the universe,

War horses are bred outside the city.

There is no greater sin than craving,

No greater curse than discontent,

No greater misfortune than wanting something for ourselves.

Therefore those who know that enough is enough will always have enough.

 

And Chapter 48 states the constant dropping aspect...

 

FORTY-EIGHT

In the pursuit of learning, something is acquired every day.

In the pursuit of the Tao, every day something is relinquished.

...

 

In pursuit of the Tao, one is always letting go of the those attachments, desires, and aversions...

[s1va]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Realizing the Dao, is not about having a preference or not. It is about the attachment to that preference. If you are addicted to smoking and cant stop yourself, then certainly in those moments of smoking you are not residing in the Dao.

 

So, you are stating it's not preference, but attachment to that preference.   This makes sense.  Earlier you mentioned preference is in the same camp as like/dislike, this caused some confusion in me and subsequent questions.  In this case, if it is not about preferences, then attachments to the preferences must be the 'desires', and not just having the preferences themselves.

 

Is residing in Dao and realization of Dao are different things?  I thought once the Dao is realized, it's a done deal.  Perhaps, we can reside in (out of) Dao, before the actual realization?

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

So, you are stating it's not preference, but attachment to that preference.   This makes sense.  Earlier you mentioned preference is in the same camp as like/dislike, this caused some confusion in me and subsequent questions.  In this case, if it is not about preferences, then attachments to the preferences must be the 'desires', and not just having the preferences themselves.

 

Is residing in Dao and realization of Dao are different things?  I thought once the Dao is realized, it's a done deal.  Perhaps, we can reside in (out of) Dao, before the actual realization?

 

Ultimately and theoretically, all preferences drop.  But, you seem to sort of be asking if there is kind of like a state/realization where you can be stable with the Dao and still prefer something to some level.  And the answer to that, from my view, yes. It is like you reside in the Dao, but still know and live in duality (10,000 things).  But at that point, when attachments come up, they just sort of naturally clear and lose their power.  Kind of like a deep issue or fear naturally dissolves with it.  The preference is sort of "hollow" and is "seen through".  Hope that makes some sense.

[Nungali]

Some will last forever ... for me .

 

' He '   came around to visit yesterday .... urrrrghs !

 

Pathetic little snivler !   Yes, we all need to get on - when we have to . I have been working with him trying to sort out a complex water loss issue.  Ahhh , communal life !   My philosophy is, what makes a community work ? Learning how to get on with it , even with people one doesnt like .  As we are all different and humans, being primates, tend to work better in clusters of extended family groups (or similar ) , not everyone needs to be intimately associated.

 

So I walked my talk and worked with ' A '  - to get the job done.  It often infuriates me in this situation ....  B  wont work with C or D ,  so none of them turn up - work not done.   E cant be in the same room with F, so neither come to dinner . Yet I would leave this silly scenario every so often to go work at my other job in 'the real world', for a few months at a time, and often have to work, every day, closely with people I cant stand or dont like .... to get the job done.

 

But A thinks now, because I worked with him, I must like him  and comes around and acts like some Ex girls friend trying to get back with me .  Pathetic, sad and still after 30 years refuses to own any of the things that a whole  heap of people have issues with him about.   I see it all, the games he plays, the manipulations he tries, the pathetic emotive pleadings and attempts to get me 'on side' then the mild anger and displeasure at me  'saying bad things about him'  to others.  After his attempted set up  he springs this on me.

 

" I want you to stop saying  ....... about me ."  But even this is worded in a trickster way and neither quotes what I say  and is an unclear and loaded 'trap question ' .  So I tell him ; "Look people ask and I respond . They  hear the stories and ask me the reality ; I tell them you caved your  girl friends head in with a ferocious punch, then the police came for you, you ran and hid, we found you and handed you over, you went to jail . True or not ? "

 

And out it comes, the excuses, the snivelling the 'poor me'  , 'it wasnt my fault '   No one knows the terrible things she put me through ."

" Why didnt you just leave or walk away ? "

 

" Because she was pregnant.  "

 

OMG !  I did not know that , he did this to his pregnant GF ? !    ( and it isnt just this issue, he has a HEAP of them )  .

 

" Time to leave my house !  Just because a job needs to be done and we are the only two that can do it, dont read anything else into this. Restrict our conversation to work issues - now, leave ! " 

 

I am reminded of the myth where Apollo, in a rage of jealousy, shoots his bow at his beloved and kills her , and he blames the arrow, the bow, his raven for informing him of her affair, his own arm, even , everything but himself .

 

No,   I can never change my dislike for this person, as I know he cant change.  His behaviour is now 'modified' ... but the core is still rotten. 

[ilumairen]

Recently been working again with the fivefold teaching of Dawa Gyaltsen:

 

Vision is mind

Mind is empty

Emptiness is clear light

Clear light is union 

Union is bliss

 

Unsure if you will find it applicable.. Or useful to your contemplation.

 

On another note there seems to be a genetic predisposition to certain preferences. In which case it could be suggested that likes and dislikes are part of the human condition, and passed on.. 

[s1va]

2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Recently been working again with the fivefold teaching of Dawa Gyaltsen:

 

Vision is mind

Mind is empty

Emptiness is clear light

Clear light is union 

Union is bliss

 

Unsure if you will find it applicable.. Or useful to your contemplation.

 

On another note there seems to be a genetic predisposition to certain preferences. In which case it could be suggested that likes and dislikes are part of the human condition, and passed on.. 

 

I just did a search on the 'fivefold teaching of Dawa Gyaltsen'.  Just briefly glimpsed through the results.  Really interesting.  I am going to certainly check later and read more on this.  Found some videos also about the practice.  Thank you.  May I ask, if you work on this by yourself or with guidance from a teacher or part of a tradition?  Dawa Gyaltsen seems to be a Dzogchen master.  This is something I have interest in the recent times.  If I understand right, most practices are done with the help of a qualified master.  

 

Yes, genetics seem to play a role on predisposition to certain preferences.  Many of the genetical or physical limitations that one is born with, seem to continue at least until the body lives.  When you mentioned human condition, I am not sure if you are talking about some type of collective consciousness, that gets passed on.

[ilumairen]

16 hours ago, s1va said:

 

I just did a search on the 'fivefold teaching of Dawa Gyaltsen'.  Just briefly glimpsed through the results.  Really interesting.  I am going to certainly check later and read more on this.  Found some videos also about the practice.  Thank you.  May I ask, if you work on this by yourself or with guidance from a teacher or part of a tradition?  Dawa Gyaltsen seems to be a Dzogchen master.  This is something I have interest in the recent times.  If I understand right, most practices are done with the help of a qualified master.  

 

Yes, genetics seem to play a role on predisposition to certain preferences.  Many of the genetical or physical limitations that one is born with, seem to continue at least until the body lives.  When you mentioned human condition, I am not sure if you are talking about some type of collective consciousness, that gets passed on.

 

I like ( ) how the teachings are expounded here: The Fivefold Teachings of Dawa Gyaltsen:

 

 

 

 

[Songtsan]

A person should be able to change likes/dislikes to a good degree. People learn to like pain, embarrassment, cold, heat, electric shocks -basically any kind of stimulus. People also reverse likes to make them at least neutral, such as people with addictions. They pair the addictive behavior with a negative stimulus. I think its mutable.