Remote two-person and group energetic practices

[Jeff]

13 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Fundamentally there's nothing 'wrong' with such encouragements if applied in a general sense of finding a level of well-being to get on with one's life. But these are whats known as 'mundane' guides that are limited in their application. Sometimes... no, in fact, most of the time, retaining a keen sense of scepticism (around anything to do with spiritual interactions) can be extremely useful and goes some way to keep one safe. Just like when someone happens to be in a precarious neighbourhood, it is unwise to open the door trustingly and invite strangers into the house. Thats where common sense applies, and yet, in the best of times, it still happens. Not all strangers have nefarious motives, that is sure, but this is where common sense becomes helpful. Not all strangers who come calling are sincere either, yes? Thats why houses have doors - they serve a primary purpose, other than to keep out the rain and drafts, regardless of how trusting the homeowner may be. 

 

If someone offers to do a remote scan, for example, which by its very suggestion is an activity that transpires outside of the mundane, then asking someone to 'let go and trust' and for that someone to afterwards accept that suggestion based simply on that premise is foolish. The very act of 'letting go and trusting' carries with it certain vulnerabilities that transcends the mundane in the context of such an exercise. I cannot say what these vulnerabilities are, specifically - it depends on circumstantial as well as individual proclivities - a lot of psycho-spiritual traumas lie dormant, so this is another factor to bear in mind. 

 

In short, the very nature of applying umbrella terms to try and make sense of the limitless subtleties/nuances involved in non-physical transactions is not exactly sound. People will be better served adhering to authentic traditions that provide systematic and guided schemas that have been forged with precision and time-tested to prove their accuracy and dependability. 

 

 

 

So being open hearted, yielding and trusting is not prudent?  The world is not safe place to do such things with all the bad neighborhoods? Better to apply the mind’s common sense?

[liminal_luke]

The open NO (and boundaried YES)

 

Seems to me that skillful navigation of this unusual interpersonal terrain requires the developent of two out-of-the-ordinary skills: saying no while staying energetically open, and saying yes while retaining energetic boundaries. 

 

There`s a strong tendency when saying no (putting up "shields" and the like) to tense up physically or energetically.  I think many of the people who object to naysaying are really objecting to the tension that for most of us habitually comes with a no stance in the world.  And yet we can learn to say no in an open way.  It`s an ability worth cultivating.

 

Also worthwhile, being able to say yes while retaining boundaries.  A yes that retains a sense of separation as a counterpoint to surrender.  Can we say yes without losing everything that`s good about  no? No has a beautiful sense of individuation, of valuing our separateness.  At it`s best, no gives us a a kind of peaceful and unstrident standing up for what is best in ourselves.  There`s a trick to saying yes without getting losing our boundaries.

 

Can you say no without losing the openness of yes?

Can you say yes without losing the self-respect and integrity of no?      

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by liminal_luke

[Fa Xin]

47 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Fundamentally there's nothing 'wrong' with such encouragements if applied in a general sense of finding a level of well-being to get on with one's life. But these are whats known as 'mundane' guides that are limited in their application. Sometimes... no, in fact, most of the time, retaining a keen sense of scepticism (around anything to do with spiritual interactions) can be extremely useful and goes some way to keep one safe. Just like when someone happens to be in a precarious neighbourhood, it is unwise to open the door trustingly and invite strangers into the house. Thats where common sense applies, and yet, in the best of times, it still happens. Not all strangers have nefarious motives, that is sure, but this is where common sense becomes helpful. Not all strangers who come calling are sincere either, yes? Thats why houses have doors - they serve a primary purpose, other than to keep out the rain and drafts, regardless of how trusting the homeowner may be. 

 

If someone offers to do a remote scan, for example, which by its very suggestion is an activity that transpires outside of the mundane, then asking someone to 'let go and trust' and for that someone to afterwards accept that suggestion based simply on that premise is foolish. The very act of 'letting go and trusting' carries with it certain vulnerabilities that transcends the mundane in the context of such an exercise. I cannot say what these vulnerabilities are, specifically - it depends on circumstantial as well as individual proclivities - a lot of psycho-spiritual traumas lie dormant, so this is another factor to bear in mind. 

 

In short, the very nature of applying umbrella terms to try and make sense of the limitless subtleties/nuances involved in non-physical transactions is not exactly sound. People will be better served adhering to authentic traditions that provide systematic and guided schemas that have been forged with precision and time-tested to prove their accuracy and dependability. 

 

 

Cool, thanks for your post. 

 

I interpreted Jeff’s post to mean more so “trust and letting go” in the grand scheme of things. Trust in God/the Dao or the grand scheme of things, and letting go of the stories of the mind. 

 

Howevwr, when working with a deity, don’t you have to trust and let go? Or a guru? 

 

The last paragraph of your post suggests a very linear, scientific and mind based approach. Which is all well and good, it’s just not my approach. To say “people will be better served adhering to...” to me implies a rigid modality, which has only made me feel more trapped in my own personal experience.  I am more heart based in my outlook.

 

To quote one of my favorite books, Self Perfected State...

Norbu says:

“A teachings value lies solely in the inner awakening an individual can arrive at through it. If a person benefits from a given teaching,  for that person that teaching is the supreme path, because it is suited for his or her nature and capacities.”

 

I can see your apprehension regarding energy transfers. I had a similar post earlier in this thread - telling people to follow their intuition, and if it doesn’t feel right... then don’t do it.  But we all must walk our own path... and a path that sounds crazy and dangerous to one person, may be exactly what someone else needs. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by Fa Xin
Adding last paragraph

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, s1va said:

 

Perhaps some of these people are on a rail car that does not need steering wheel

 

For a long time, I thought I was the one driving, steering, speeding, etc.  But, when I let go and relaxed,  I realized my steering wheel is just my mind's toy.  I am just part of this rail car, which is going on a track.  Even more amazing is the glimpses of the revelation, I am not lifetimes away from destination.  This rail car, where I am right now, is the destination.  It was the destination always.

 

I think you have captured the essence of your path well, "just part of this rail car, which is going on a track." And this is where we differ in outlook.

 

To me the thinking mind is important as it is the means by which I can be brought to the point where higher mind can become established and take over, and it is this higher mind within myself only that I will submit to. Higher mind is the steering wheel I am referring to, and working towards its establishment seems to be at odds with energy paths, which require submission to the energy itself. 

 

As far as I'm concerned just energy is not enough, though I gather it feels good, and it's nice to feel you have arrived. But I think there's quite lot more to it than just this. 

 

 

[C T]

55 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

So being open hearted, yielding and trusting is not prudent?  The world is not safe place to do such things with all the bad neighborhoods? Better to apply the mind’s common sense?

 

It can be prudent when equally matched with a kind of healthy scepticism - one that can mature over time without turning one into a cynic in the process. Cynicism is a highly contractive state, as that TTC quote you posted indicates. 

 

In Vajrayana, initiates are made aware of the importance of allowing ample time to test the teacher, for however long it takes, some even up to 9 years, or until a complete trust in the relationship is cemented before taking it to the next level. This is a prerequisite for authentic guru yoga. To progress confidently in guru yoga it is best that all traces of doubt be erased prior. 

 

I think the post i made which you quoted above clearly explained my position with regards to the limitations of such prudence in certain facets of life, especially those involving remote interactions and on-line energetic exchanges.

 

In case of misunderstanding, let me state again that its not my intention to lessen the validity of any group or the kind of practices these groups conduct. I have no idea of specifics, so what I write and comment on, derived from my involvement in Vajrayana Buddhism, naturally have a limited scope when reflected against non-Vajrayana paths. I admit to generalising some of whats commented upon, and my only objective is to present alternative considerations so that readers can make comparisons and hopefully inform themselves and draw conclusions if they so choose, in a better light. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by C T

[C T]

25 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Cool, thanks for your post. 

 

I interpreted Jeff’s post to mean more so “trust and letting go” in the grand scheme of things. Trust in God/the Dao or the grand scheme of things, and letting go of the stories of the mind. 

 

Howevwr, when working with a deity, don’t you have to trust and let go? Or a guru? 

 

The last paragraph of your post suggests a very linear, scientific and mind based approach. Which is all well and good, it’s just not my approach. To say “people will be better served adhering to...” to me implies a rigid modality, which has only made me feel more trapped in my own personal experience.  I am more heart based in my outlook.

 

To quote one of my favorite books, Self Perfected State...

Norbu says:

 

 

 

I can see your apprehension regarding energy transfers. I had a similar post earlier in this thread - telling people to follow their intuition, and if it doesn’t feel right... then don’t do it.  But we all must walk our own path... and a path that sounds crazy and dangerous to one person, may be exactly what someone else needs. 

 

And thanks for yours. I can appreciate where you're coming from. 

 

I think Norbu Rinpoche might have made that specific comment in the context of the different Buddhist yanas and the array of teachings found within each of these vehicles. Its easy to take it out of context to assume he meant it some other way. 

 

Intuition have its limits, and are often subjected to individual biases. 

As for dangerous paths, if obvious signs are there and there's still the insistence to proceed anyway, then thats whats needed for the lesson, I guess. Freedom is an all-inclusive gift which is bestowed equally on those who are right and also those who are wrong. 

[s1va]

26 minutes ago, Bindi said:

To me the thinking mind is important as it is the means by which I can be brought to the point where higher mind can become established and take over, and it is this higher mind within myself only that I will submit to. Higher mind is the steering wheel I am referring to, and working towards its establishment seems to be at odds with energy paths, which require submission to the energy itself. 

 

As far as I'm concerned just energy is not enough, though I gather it feels good, and it's nice to feel you have arrived. But I think there's quite lot more to it than just this. 

 

I totally agree with you that thinking mind is important.  Unlike some, I don't reject the mind as illusion, non existent or useless.  If someone asks me to stop using my thinking mind, I won't walk, but will run away from that place.  Mind is a valuable tool.  It's only the association or letting go of the doership, that I was referring to as steering.  If the body and and mind are identified as 'I' and the only 'I', that seems to cause some issues. 

 

I agree with you on the energy part also, just energy is not enough.  My post does not say or imply energy is enough anywhere.  Not sure how you got that impression.  Anyway, thanks for the reply, enjoyed reading your post .

[Fa Xin]

10 minutes ago, C T said:

 

And thanks for yours. I can appreciate where you're coming from. 

 

I think Norbu Rinpoche might have made that specific comment in the context of the different Buddhist yanas and the array of teachings found within each of these vehicles. Its easy to take it out of context to assume he meant it some other way. 

 

Intuition have its limits, and are often subjected to individual biases. 

As for dangerous paths, if obvious signs are there and there's still the insistence to proceed anyway, then thats whats needed for the lesson, I guess. Freedom is an all-inclusive gift which is bestowed equally on those who are right and also those who are wrong. 

I believe intuition is not limited, but rather our ability to listen and understand it, which is clouded by our ego and mind stuff.

Anyway, appreciate the convo.

 

Here's the full Norbu snippet I clipped while reading. I took it to mean all spiritual paths - not just the Buddhist yanas, though I can't remember exactly. So it is up for interpretation, like all things.

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by Fa Xin

[C T]

Yes Im familiar with that verse. It was directed to Buddhist practitioners in general who wanted to know what to make of all the different teachings found in all the different Buddhist traditions, some of which appears contradictory. So he responded accordingly.  

[Fa Xin]

1 minute ago, C T said:

Yes Im familiar with that verse. It was directed to Buddhist practitioners in general who wanted to know what to make of all the different teachings found in all the different Buddhist traditions, some of which appears contradictory. So he responded accordingly.  

Ok

[Fa Xin]

8 minutes ago, C T said:

Yes Im familiar with that verse. It was directed to Buddhist practitioners in general who wanted to know what to make of all the different teachings found in all the different Buddhist traditions, some of which appears contradictory. So he responded accordingly.  

You don’t think the quote applies cross tradition?

[C T]

9 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

You don’t think the quote applies cross tradition?

 

He has some senior students who contribute regularly over at Dharmawheel.. perhaps you can check with them. From my own findings, the meaning is clear. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by C T

[Bindi]

15 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

You don’t think the quote applies cross tradition?

 

If all teachings had value, then even crazy groups like Jim Jones and his cool-aid, Aum Shinrikyo and sarin gas, and Heaven’s gate hitching a ride on the spaceship hidden behind the Hale-Bopp comet would be as perfect and effective as any other teaching. Seems a bit too broad for me. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by Bindi

[Fa Xin]

17 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

If all teachings had value, then even crazy groups like Jim Jones and his cool-aid, Aum Shinrikyo and sarin gas, and Heaven’s gate hitching a ride on the spaceship hidden behind the Hale-Bopp comet would be as perfect and effective as any other teaching. Seems a bit too broad for me. 

 

 

 

 

I can see where your coming from, but who are we to decide what was right for those people? 

[Jonesboy]

1 hour ago, C T said:

 

It can be prudent when equally matched with a kind of healthy scepticism - one that can mature over time without turning one into a cynic in the process. Cynicism is a highly contractive state, as that TTC quote you posted indicates. 

 

In Vajrayana, initiates are made aware of the importance of allowing ample time to test the teacher, for however long it takes, some even up to 9 years, or until a complete trust in the relationship is cemented before taking it to the next level. This is a prerequisite for authentic guru yoga. To progress confidently in guru yoga it is best that all traces of doubt be erased prior. 

 

I think the post i made which you quoted above clearly explained my position with regards to the limitations of such prudence in certain facets of life, especially those involving remote interactions and on-line energetic exchanges.

 

In case of misunderstanding, let me state again that its not my intention to lessen the validity of any group or the kind of practices these groups conduct. I have no idea of specifics, so what I write and comment on, derived from my involvement in Vajrayana Buddhism, naturally have a limited scope when reflected against non-Vajrayana paths. I admit to generalising some of whats commented upon, and my only objective is to present alternative considerations so that readers can make comparisons and hopefully inform themselves and draw conclusions if they so choose, in a better light. 

 

What is being discussed is not part of Buddhism. There is no group energy work or one on one energy work between guru and student.

 

So one couldn’t really draw any comparisons.

 

Without even knowing what merging or even how sharing of presence is done isn’t it all just speculation with a bunch of fear thrown in?

 

Are we just debating about shields then? What Buddhism says compared to other beliefs systems?

[Bindi]

7 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

I can see where your coming from, but who are we to decide what was right for those people? 

 

Did the 12 random people poisoned by sarin gas in the subway get to decide if being poisoned was right for them and their families at that time?

[Jonesboy]

Just now, Bindi said:

 

Did the 12 random people poisoned by sarin gas in the subway get to decide if being poisoned was right for them and their families at that time?

 

I take it you are a no on the poll then

[Apech]

10 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

I can see where your coming from, but who are we to decide what was right for those people? 

 

 

the multiple deaths might be a clue.

[Apech]

Can someone on the YES side explain to me why anyone who votes NO has to be characterised as:

- frightened

- suffering from traumatic bad experiences

- clinging on with unnecessary caution

 

where does all this talking down to other people come from? especially as you seem to think there are no boundaries - presumably everyone is free to do what they want?????

 

[Fa Xin]

11 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Did the 12 random people poisoned by sarin gas in the subway get to decide if being poisoned was right for them and their families at that time?

Sorry - that’s why I don’t post much. My view of things is a bit different then most. Didn’t mean to sound cold. 😊

 

[C T]

31 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

What is being discussed is not part of Buddhism. There is no group energy work or one on one energy work between guru and student.

 

So one couldn’t really draw any comparisons.

 

Without even knowing what merging or even how sharing of presence is done isn’t it all just speculation with a bunch of fear thrown in?

 

Are we just debating about shields then? What Buddhism says compared to other beliefs systems?

 

You're free to interpret it in whichever way fits best with your current path, Tom. 

 

Im drawing comparisons in the same way that you make comments on certain Vajrayana practices, even though you are not a practitioner. I may have been critical a few times over what i recognised as inaccuracies and debated with you on that, but i dont think i had ever said you had no right to your interpretation. I hope you can extend that same courtesy likewise. 

 

My intention is not to instil fear (or at least not a bunch of them) but i can understand how it can be misconstrued according to selective interpretations. As mentioned, im only presenting how energetic practices, guru yoga and yidam (deity) practices are systematically cultivated in the tradition I follow. 

 

And no, Im not debating about shields, although they are extremely helpful and even crucial. Not only in Vajrayana, but in almost all serious esoteric/occult pursuits. You might want to read up on mandalas, pentagrams, symbolisms, protective shields, site consecrations, etc. to maybe get a clearer understanding of what Im pointing to. 

 

Im sure some of the members who follow this thread can see well that promoting fear was the least of my motive. 

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by C T

[s1va]

-

 

Edited March 17, 2018 by s1va

[Bindi]

19 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Sorry - that’s why I don’t post much. My view of things is a bit different then most. Didn’t mean to sound cold. 😊

 

 

I gather you subscribe to the belief that everything is perfect just as it is right now, no matter how terrible it might appear?

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, s1va said:

 

I totally agree with you that thinking mind is important.  Unlike some, I don't reject the mind as illusion, non existent or useless.  If someone asks me to stop using my thinking mind, I won't walk, but will run away from that place.  Mind is a valuable tool.  It's only the association or letting go of the doership, that I was referring to as steering.  If the body and and mind are identified as 'I' and the only 'I', that seems to cause some issues. 

 

I agree with you on the energy part also, just energy is not enough.  My post does not say or imply energy is enough anywhere.  Not sure how you got that impression.  Anyway, thanks for the reply, enjoyed reading your post .

 

Then I have made an incorrect assumption. Is there something specific beyond energy flowing that you are working towards?  

[s1va]

22 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Then I have made an incorrect assumption. Is there something specific beyond energy flowing that you are working towards?  

 

I mentioned that I agree with you on the energy part, that energy is not just enough.  It was about my belief (phone typo - corrected :)) and not my practice or what I was working towards.  Yes, I am working towards various things.  But, this thread is not about me and may not be the right place to elaborate on things I am working on.  Perhaps, some other place.

Edited February 11, 2018 by s1va
typo