Remote two-person and group energetic practices

[Fa Xin]

21 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

I gather you subscribe to the belief that everything is perfect just as it is right now, no matter how terrible it might appear?

Not quite. I’d be happy to chat more via PM if your interested. I think I’ve derailed this thread enough for today. 😀

[Jonesboy]

 

53 minutes ago, C T said:

 

You're free to interpret it in whichever way fits best with your current path, Tom. 

 

Im drawing comparisons in the same way that you make comments on certain Vajrayana practices, even though you are not a practitioner. I may have been critical a few times over what i recognised as inaccuracies and debated with you on that, but i dont think i had ever said you had no right to your interpretation. I hope you can extend that same courtesy likewise. 

 

My intention is not to instil fear (or at least not a bunch of them) but i can understand how it can be misconstrued according to selective interpretations. As mentioned, im only presenting how energetic practices, guru yoga and yidam (deity) practices are systematically cultivated in the tradition I follow. 

 

And no, Im not debating about shields, although they are extremely helpful and even crucial. Not only in Vajrayana, but in almost all serious esoteric/occult pursuits. You might want to read up on mandalas, pentagrams, symbolisms, protective shields, site consecrations, etc. to maybe get a clearer understanding of what Im pointing to. 

 

Im sure some of the members who follow this thread can see well that promoting fear was the least of my motive. 

 

 

Thank you CT.

 

I only mentioned fear because the comments to me were getting me to think demons and bad guys were all over the place waiting to get us.

 

That sounds like some scary stuff to me. Maybe I should have said scary instead of fear.

 

 I sure wasn’t trying to talk down or say that everyone who is against energy work is fearful. It just seemed things were getting more and more dangerous.

 

You have never heard me disparage a Buddhist teaching or practice. We debate the true meaning of a teaching and related non Buddhist practices.

 

it is a little different than what is going on here. Thank you for the information about shielding but those things are really not for me.

 

Thank you though.

 

Edited February 12, 2018 by Jonesboy

[s1va]

20 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

If all teachings had value, then even crazy groups like Jim Jones and his cool-aid, Aum Shinrikyo and sarin gas, and Heaven’s gate hitching a ride on the spaceship hidden behind the Hale-Bopp comet would be as perfect and effective as any other teaching. Seems a bit too broad for me. 

 

 

 

 

 

This post above was in response to a simple question about cross tradition.  Then  multiple other posts followed  describing the killing and death of some 12 people with some gas by some crazy group.  In my view, cross tradition does not mean, any  crazy group out there or killers with some teaching.  There are all types of outfits that call themselves as spiritual traditions.  Those that do comparison must use their judgement in picking the right thing to compare.  Here, sadly it looks to me like some group that was involved in the crazy killing and deaths was hand picked for comparison.  These deaths or this group, none of this is relevant  in anyway to this topic.

 

This does bring up the question, was such comparison done on good faith for the sake of the discussion here, or to promote fear against certain practices?  

 

Any one that engaged on the discussion about this crazy group and  their killings, care to respond?

Edited February 12, 2018 by s1va

[C T]

We all practice shielding in some form of another, its just that some of these forms are so close to our nose that we no longer think of it in the same way it is encouraged in serious spiritual work. 

 

In essence, the practice of shielding in spiritual work is no different than putting a blanket over oneself at bed time. Its not just for keeping warm - even in warmer climates people still wrap up. As one falls asleep, the body gradually stills as the mind moves from one dimension to another, and with the help of a cover over the body, this transition is made in a way to allow or help the mind move out and then return safely and in the best possible way, because if it does not, then all kinds of agitations will tend to occur, and one will fail to get a restful sleep. Its basically the same principle at work in spiritual practice - yet there is a rejection of one and a favouring of the other, when in actual fact both are equally practical and applicable. 

[dwai]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Yes, letting go of such fears and attachments in the mind are the nature of it. Seeing through the energetic projections that manifest in your mind. Simply “knowing” that such things are such are empty. Open the heart and trusting is a huge first step.

 

But here is my advice for any who are being attacked by such energy monsters... Do not run, do not hide, do not try to build some mental energy shield... Instead, face it head on with an open and loving heart. No attacking energy monster can withstand the light and love of a good hug. Burn it clear with your love and light. Simply know that it cannot really hurt you. Such fear is all in your mind...

 

And yes, this is the kind of thing our group likes to do.

In the past I’ve faced a few such “demons”. Somehow I knew that I could “vanquish” these demons with a particular mantra I was given.

 

But one day, when nine such beings came at me, I remembered that they are not separate from me. In the middle of vaporizing them I stopped, and embraced one that was approaching me. There was such joy, such a release that I felt a part of my personality that was afraid melted away.

 

It is strange that we don’t walk the talk. If someone walks the talk of  nonduality, then there can no longer be me and you. There can no longer be protection or shields. Let’s start at the spiritual realm and bring it into the physical realm as well. If we can’t even do it in the spiritual realm how do we live it in the physical world whose separateness we cannot seem to get over ? 

[C T]

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

In the past I’ve faced a few such “demons”. Somehow I knew that I could “vanquish” these demons with a particular mantra I was given.

 

But one day, when nine such beings came at me, I remembered that they are not separate from me. In the middle of vaporizing them I stopped, and embraced one that was approaching me. There was such joy, such a release that I felt a part of my personality that was afraid melted away.

 

It is strange that we don’t walk the talk. If someone walks the talk of  nonduality, then there can no longer be me and you. There can no longer be protection or shields. Let’s start at the spiritual realm and bring it into the physical realm as well. If we can’t even do it in the spiritual realm how do we live it in the physical world whose separateness we cannot seem to get over ? 

 

But yet you still believe in the efficacy of mantra, yes? 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

Can someone on the YES side explain to me why anyone who votes NO has to be characterised as:

- frightened

- suffering from traumatic bad experiences

- clinging on with unnecessary caution

 

where does all this talking down to other people come from? especially as you seem to think there are no boundaries - presumably everyone is free to do what they want?????

 

 some of it was my misunderstanding. Some people have made it clear that they are NOT afraid, or traumatized etc. 

 

My apologies if I’ve hurt your feelings 🤗

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

In the past I’ve faced a few such “demons”. Somehow I knew that I could “vanquish” these demons with a particular mantra I was given.

 

But one day, when nine such beings came at me, I remembered that they are not separate from me. In the middle of vaporizing them I stopped, and embraced one that was approaching me. There was such joy, such a release that I felt a part of my personality that was afraid melted away.

 

It is strange that we don’t walk the talk. If someone walks the talk of  nonduality, then there can no longer be me and you. There can no longer be protection or shields. Let’s start at the spiritual realm and bring it into the physical realm as well. If we can’t even do it in the spiritual realm how do we live it in the physical world whose separateness we cannot seem to get over ? 

 

Makes sense. Also fits well with the words of the Tao Te Ching...

 

Chapter 23

To talk little is natural. High winds do not last all morning.

Heavy rain does not last all day. Why is this? Heaven and earth!

If heaven and earth cannot make things last forever, How is it possible for us?

Those who follow the Tao Are at one with the Tao.

Those who are virtuous Experience Virtue.

Those who lose their way Are lost.

When you are at one with the Tao, The Tao welcomes you.

When you are at one with Virtue, Virtue is always there.

When you are at one with loss, Loss is experienced willingly.

Those who do not trust enough Will not be trusted.

 

Simply Trust with all your heart and you will find that is enough...

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, C T said:

 

But yet you still believe in the efficacy of mantra, yes? 

Yes but it turns out the mantra literally says the same thing as my realization  

 

Earlier, reacting out of fear, I wielded  it with “violence”. Maybe it was appropriate for me back then, but the realization that dawned during the incident I mentioned made nonduality move from theory to practice for me. 

 

[C T]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

Yes but it turns out the mantra literally says the same thing as my realization  

 

Earlier, reacting out of fear, I wielded  it with “violence”. Maybe it was appropriate for me back then, but the realization that dawned during the incident I mentioned made nonduality move from theory to practice for me. 

 

 

So the power of the mantra remains the same, just the awareness of its usage has transcended? 

Likewise, shielding (categorically, a mantra is a type of protective shield, as you know) can be employed within the exact same awareness, and not necessarily have anything to do with fear or other lesser motives. Its got very little to do with being afraid actually, but i can understand the convenience involved when choosing to connect shielding with a fear-based motive. 

[dwai]

37 minutes ago, C T said:

 

So the power of the mantra remains the same, just the awareness of its usage has transcended? 

Likewise, shielding (categorically, a mantra is a type of protective shield, as you know) can be employed within the exact same awareness, and not necessarily have anything to do with fear or other lesser motives. Its got very little to do with being afraid actually, but i can understand the convenience involved when choosing to connect shielding with a fear-based motive. 

Why does anyone shield oneself from something? For protection, right? So is that not driven by a feeling of being unprotected? Or in other words, fear?

 

Imho it is perfectly okay and normal to be afraid.

 

 

 

 

[s1va]

1 hour ago, C T said:

We all practice shielding in some form of another, its just that some of these forms are so close to our nose that we no longer think of it in the same way it is encouraged in serious spiritual work. 

 

In essence, the practice of shielding in spiritual work is no different than putting a blanket over oneself at bed time. Its not just for keeping warm - even in warmer climates people still wrap up. As one falls asleep, the body gradually stills as the mind moves from one dimension to another, and with the help of a cover over the body, this transition is made in a way to allow or help the mind move out and then return safely and in the best possible way, because if it does not, then all kinds of agitations will tend to occur, and one will fail to get a restful sleep. Its basically the same principle at work in spiritual practice - yet there is a rejection of one and a favouring of the other, when in actual fact both are equally practical and applicable. 

 

This makes sense.  Agreed,  shielding may be essential to some, and some of us may be doing it in one way or other.  But, that does not mean, everyone needs shielding and those who do not advocate it are naieve, as discussed earlier.  For those who have transcended fear or realized the Dao, or in Non-dual state like Dwai describes, there is simply no need for shielding. 

 

Here the fear is not used in the sense of frightenening.  Generally, someone who has overcome all fear and is full of compassion may see no need to shield, but only love towards all beings.

[s1va]

12 minutes ago, dwai said:

Why does anyone shield oneself from something? For protection, right? So is that not driven by a feeling of being unprotected? Or in other words, fear?

 

Imho it is perfectly okay and normal to be afraid.

 

 

 

 

 

Protection need not be because of fear (always).  I am walking on the road, a stone is failing on my head.  I may move, duck, or shield from the falling stone to protect myself.  This may not be due to fear.  I think this is the point CT is getting at.

Edited February 12, 2018 by s1va
spell

[dwai]

28 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Protection need not be because of fear (always).  I am walking on the road, a stone is failing on my head.  I may move, duck, or shield from the falling stone to protect myself.  This may not be due to fear.  I think this is the point CT is getting at.

Ducking out of the way is reaction. Perfectly okay. One that is driven by fear of bodily harm. Walking with a helmet on is akin to shielding in this case. Sorry was being tongue-in-cheek...

 

I get the point being made. Perhaps I should try and rephrase from fear to apprehension or risk aversion even?

[C T]

In Vajrayana, as mentioned in a previous post, shielding serves a dual purpose - besides keeping negative energies at bay, it locks in accrued merit & virtue, combined as propensities for enlightenment. Like a blanket - keeps out the cold, keeps in the warmth, simultaneously. One action, two results. 

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, C T said:

In Vajrayana, as mentioned in a previous post, shielding serves a dual purpose - besides keeping negative energies at bay, it locks in accrued merit & virtue, combined as propensities for enlightenment. Like a blanket - keeps out the cold, keeps in the warmth, simultaneously. One action, two results. 

 

An energy shield that locks in accrued merit and virtue? That mean that those negative energies (or beings) can steal your accrued merit? That merit is something that you hide behind a shield in Vajrayana?

[C T]

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

An energy shield that locks in accrued merit and virtue? That mean that those negative energies (or beings) can steal your accrued merit? That merit is something that you hide behind a shield in Vajrayana?

 

that is the simplistic understanding, but there's a depth to it that only becomes clear after one has immersed in the direct experience of being in a consecrated space. Its like someone you share presence with, they might experience a certain wave of energetic transformation taking place, but this energetic impulse needs some kind of containment if it is to retain efficacy, otherwise it can be lost thru leakages. Locking in merit means having some form of assurance that the containment is secure so that leakages are minimised/plugged. 

 

Asking if we hide merit behind a shield seems like a disingenuous question, but it may be because you actually did not grasp what im saying. If the question was genuine, it need not have to be tinged with innuendo and what seems like sarcasm even. Or maybe the meaning wasn't clear enough - if thats the case, its my fault for misunderstanding the underlying intent behind your questions. 

[Apech]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

An energy shield that locks in accrued merit and virtue? That mean that those negative energies (or beings) can steal your accrued merit? That merit is something that you hide behind a shield in Vajrayana?

 

I think to a certain extent we have strayed from the original topic - which was are two person energy practices safe and spiritually useful.  Which in itself is a double question because maybe they could be spiritually useful but not safe - or the other way round.  In the end I voted 'no' so I could see the results - but I accept they could be safe and useful but on the other hand they could be not.  It all depends on who is doing what with whom.

 

CT is perfectly right to point out that vajrayana works within consecrated spaces and mandalas which are purified - and on a simple level people find benefit from finding a quiet place to meditate and so on (although there are those of us who seek out crowded spaces to do the same as a kind of test ).  I can't think of a spiritual system that doesn't do this in some way or another - I mean - why build a cathedral when you can sit in a bus station?  All sacred spaces are models of the cosmos as understood - in other words they are places where the cosmic order is mirrored - hence sacred geometry, mandalas, pyramids, temples, sacred groves, stone circles etc. etc.

 

Then you have guardians of those spaces.  For instance St. Michael with his sword.  In vajrayana there are Dharmapalas such as Mahakala and so on.  These are known as wrathful deities - although their wrath is more the active side of compassion.  They are not protecting egos.  They are protecting dharma which is a word which can be read on many levels.  The teachings, the way as a path, truth, reality - or at an energy level the mandala itself as a mirror of the inherent structure of the cosmos.  They do this by taking negative, violent, slothful, disharmonious energy and breaking it down through emptiness and converting it into nectar (positive spiritual forces) - thus making the bad energy available for 'good' if you see what I mean.

 

Although we all have Buddha-nature and thus are inherently pure beyond elaboration - it is also true that human beings carry a lot of disharmonious energy - mostly through ignorance but also sometimes through bad intent.  In life we choose intimacy with those we love and not just anyone we meet - although you might do this as a spiritual exercise, certainly it has some risk of identification with those disharmonious or violent unresolved energies and karmic influence of others.  This is why healing is a slow and careful process because there are inertias - why people need time to adjust.  Of course if you are karmically 'ripe' you can make a leap from an ordinary state to a deeper one - but on the other hand to try to induce this in someone who is not really ready could mean that after a brief ecstatic experience they fall back into even worse shit than before (subjectively).

 

Just some thoughts.

[Jeff]

9 hours ago, C T said:

 

that is the simplistic understanding, but there's a depth to it that only becomes clear after one has immersed in the direct experience of being in a consecrated space. Its like someone you share presence with, they might experience a certain wave of energetic transformation taking place, but this energetic impulse needs some kind of containment if it is to retain efficacy, otherwise it can be lost thru leakages. Locking in merit means having some form of assurance that the containment is secure so that leakages are minimised/plugged. 

 

Asking if we hide merit behind a shield seems like a disingenuous question, but it may be because you actually did not grasp what im saying. If the question was genuine, it need not have to be tinged with innuendo and what seems like sarcasm even. Or maybe the meaning wasn't clear enough - if thats the case, its my fault for misunderstanding the underlying intent behind your questions. 

 

No worries, I understand what you were doing.

 

i just found the topic very interesting. I did not realize that there was the concept of such a container (and stuff stored in it) in Buddhism. I apologize if the wording of my interest (and relative surprise) came across as sarcasm, I was just genuinely interested.

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I think to a certain extent we have strayed from the original topic - which was are two person energy practices safe and spiritually useful.  Which in itself is a double question because maybe they could be spiritually useful but not safe - or the other way round.  In the end I voted 'no' so I could see the results - but I accept they could be safe and useful but on the other hand they could be not.  It all depends on who is doing what with whom.

 

CT is perfectly right to point out that vajrayana works within consecrated spaces and mandalas which are purified - and on a simple level people find benefit from finding a quiet place to meditate and so on (although there are those of us who seek out crowded spaces to do the same as a kind of test ).  I can't think of a spiritual system that doesn't do this in some way or another - I mean - why build a cathedral when you can sit in a bus station?  All sacred spaces are models of the cosmos as understood - in other words they are places where the cosmic order is mirrored - hence sacred geometry, mandalas, pyramids, temples, sacred groves, stone circles etc. etc.

 

Then you have guardians of those spaces.  For instance St. Michael with his sword.  In vajrayana there are Dharmapalas such as Mahakala and so on.  These are known as wrathful deities - although their wrath is more the active side of compassion.  They are not protecting egos.  They are protecting dharma which is a word which can be read on many levels.  The teachings, the way as a path, truth, reality - or at an energy level the mandala itself as a mirror of the inherent structure of the cosmos.  They do this by taking negative, violent, slothful, disharmonious energy and breaking it down through emptiness and converting it into nectar (positive spiritual forces) - thus making the bad energy available for 'good' if you see what I mean.

 

Although we all have Buddha-nature and thus are inherently pure beyond elaboration - it is also true that human beings carry a lot of disharmonious energy - mostly through ignorance but also sometimes through bad intent.  In life we choose intimacy with those we love and not just anyone we meet - although you might do this as a spiritual exercise, certainly it has some risk of identification with those disharmonious or violent unresolved energies and karmic influence of others.  This is why healing is a slow and careful process because there are inertias - why people need time to adjust.  Of course if you are karmically 'ripe' you can make a leap from an ordinary state to a deeper one - but on the other hand to try to induce this in someone who is not really ready could mean that after a brief ecstatic experience they fall back into even worse shit than before (subjectively).

 

Just some thoughts.

 

I think the difference of perspective is also to some extent related to the underlying frameworks (traditions themselves) on the concept of joint energy work. Obviously one could understand if you had a container where you store up merit and you believed it was possible to be lost/leaked or stolen, it is totally reasonable to want to protect it. Hence, in such a belief system, any joint energy work would be a potentially risky activity and probably not worth the trouble.

 

On your point that healing need to be slow and be limited to karmic processes, I would disagree. That concept is not part of traditions like mystical Christianity and Taoism. The Tao Te Ching describes it here...

 

Chapter 6

The valley spirit never dies; It is the woman, primal mother.

Her gateway is the root of heaven and earth.

It is like a veil barely seen. Use it; it will never fail.

 

Use it and it will never fail...

[Apech]

41 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I think the difference of perspective is also to some extent related to the underlying frameworks (traditions themselves) on the concept of joint energy work. Obviously one could understand if you had a container where you store up merit and you believed it was possible to be lost/leaked or stolen, it is totally reasonable to want to protect it. Hence, in such a belief system, any joint energy work would be a potentially risky activity and probably not worth the trouble.

 

On your point that healing need to be slow and be limited to karmic processes, I would disagree. That concept is not part of traditions like mystical Christianity and Taoism. The Tao Te Ching describes it here...

 

Chapter 6

The valley spirit never dies; It is the woman, primal mother.

Her gateway is the root of heaven and earth.

It is like a veil barely seen. Use it; it will never fail.

 

Use it and it will never fail...

 

 

So when you have had a cold or flu you heal up instantly?

[dwai]

40 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

So when you have had a cold or flu you heal up instantly?

For me, healing is much faster for sure  

The Buddha had a reason for using the term “tathagata”. He said resistance is prolonging of the malaise and acceptance of the situation (whatever it might be) as is, is wise. Don’t ask me for quotes, I’m sure you Buddhists will know the specific sutta (iinm this is when Buddha explains to Anand what tathagata means). 

[Jeff]

43 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

So when you have had a cold or flu you heal up instantly?

 

Again, the Tao Te Ching has the answer you are looking for...

 

Chapter 71

Knowing ignorance is strength. Ignoring knowledge is sickness.

If one is sick of sickness, then one is not sick.

The wise are not sick, because they are sick of sickness.

Therefore they are not sick.

 

If you meant it as a specific question to me, I have not had a cold or flu in over 10 years. As my earlier post stated, finding the gateway is the key.

[Apech]

10 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Again, the Tao Te Ching has the answer you are looking for...

 

Chapter 71

Knowing ignorance is strength. Ignoring knowledge is sickness.

If one is sick of sickness, then one is not sick.

The wise are not sick, because they are sick of sickness.

Therefore they are not sick.

 

If you meant it as a specific question to me, I have not had a cold or flu in over 10 years. As my earlier post stated, finding the gateway is the key.

 

'Ignoring knowledge is sickness.'

 

It is not talking about coughs and colds.   I'm very happy that you haven't had any by the way

 

I am assuming you are saying you have found this gateway and thus are you claiming Buddhahood or the equivalent?

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

'Ignoring knowledge is sickness.'

 

It is not talking about coughs and colds.   I'm very happy that you haven't had any by the way

 

I am assuming you are saying you have found this gateway and thus are you claiming Buddhahood or the equivalent?

 

Sickness is sickness. Believing you are trapped in a body and that body is sick, is the definition of ingnoring knowledge (ignorance). 

 

I am claiming nothing and certainly not something about buddhahood. Honestly, I didn’t even know that there was a container you filled up with merit as part of becoming a Buddha. Since, I have no such container, sounds like my path may be very different.