Remote two-person and group energetic practices

[silent thunder]

where is the topic again..? I seem to have lost it.

[Jeff]

22 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

where is the topic again..? I seem to have lost it.

 

Personally, I think it fits and I find it all interesting.  In buddhism (as we have discussed in other threads) there is no ability to energetically remotely help another person.  Additionally, there is the inverse risk that merit could leak (or maybe be stolen). Hence, given that view, it makes total sense to me that no buddhist practitioner would ever want to engage in any remote energy practice.

 

Also, it seems to me that we have identified a major difference between Taoism and Buddhism related to path (and even the potentials of the path) as part of this remote energy discussion.

 

Maybe no one else cares, but I think it is cool and have learned some things that I previously did not know from the thread. And, I apologize if anyone here took my questions as sarcasm. It was really much more like surprise and honest interest to learn more about a tradition.

[Apech]

23 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Personally, I think it fits and I find it all interesting.  In buddhism (as we have discussed in other threads) there is no ability to energetically remotely help another person.  Additionally, there is the inverse risk that merit could leak (or maybe be stolen). Hence, given that view, it makes total sense to me that no buddhist practitioner would ever want to engage in any remote energy practice.

 

Also, it seems to me that we have identified a major difference between Taoism and Buddhism related to path (and even the potentials of the path) as part of this remote energy discussion.

 

Maybe no one else cares, but I think it is cool and have learned some things that I previously did not know from the thread. And, I apologize if anyone here took my questions as sarcasm. It was really much more like surprise and honest interest to learn more about a tradition.

 

 

I think we must have been having a completely different set of conversations.  I don't know anything about this 'container' is that something CT mentioned?  

 

 

[silent thunder]

10 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

I think we must have been having a completely different set of conversations.  I don't know anything about this 'container' is that something CT mentioned?  

 

 

 

Yea, here it is.

 

13 hours ago, C T said:

In Vajrayana, as mentioned in a previous post, shielding serves a dual purpose - besides keeping negative energies at bay, it locks in accrued merit & virtue, combined as propensities for enlightenment. Like a blanket - keeps out the cold, keeps in the warmth, simultaneously. One action, two results. 

 

[Apech]

11 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

 

Yea, here it is.

 

 

 

Ok thanks - I'll let CT run with that.

 

 

[Jeff]

Deleted as cross posted.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Jeff

[Apech]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Here are a few more recent posts of the discussion for you...

or here...

 

 

 

Thanks - being an extreme egotist I only read things where I was involved.

 

I wasn't of the impression that we were discussing the possibility of 'merging' but just if it was safe/useful.  And obviously if you think it may not be safe then that necessarily means you think it is possible.  I don't think Buddhism would say it is not possible - but perhaps the models for what is actually happening may be different (as per the other thread).

 

Merit is accumulated.  But I don't see this as putting it in a piggy bank - actually more merit is accumulated by offering it up!  But as I say I'll let CT respond.

 

 

[Jonesboy]

4 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Thanks - being an extreme egotist I only read things where I was involved.

 

I wasn't of the impression that we were discussing the possibility of 'merging' but just if it was safe/useful.  And obviously if you think it may not be safe then that necessarily means you think it is possible.  I don't think Buddhism would say it is not possible - but perhaps the models for what is actually happening may be different (as per the other thread).

 

Merit is accumulated.  But I don't see this as putting it in a piggy bank - actually more merit is accumulated by offering it up!  But as I say I'll let CT respond.

 

 

 

I wasn't aware the topic was focused on "light practices" but energy practices between people in general. Especially since any such talk on the dangers from practices like merging is being discussed by those with no experience of it.

 

Just like I would never comment on any dangers of Vajrayana practices because I have no experience with them.

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Thanks - being an extreme egotist I only read things where I was involved.

 

I wasn't of the impression that we were discussing the possibility of 'merging' but just if it was safe/useful.  And obviously if you think it may not be safe then that necessarily means you think it is possible.  I don't think Buddhism would say it is not possible - but perhaps the models for what is actually happening may be different (as per the other thread).

 

Merit is accumulated.  But I don't see this as putting it in a piggy bank - actually more merit is accumulated by offering it up!  But as I say I'll let CT respond.

 

 

Seems like you are saying something different with the "offering it up". If you don't mind, who do you offer it up to and how do you do it with merit?

[Apech]

42 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Seems like you are saying something different with the "offering it up". If you don't mind, who do you offer it up to and how do you do it with merit?

 

Usually to the refuge assembly which is the usual objects of refuge plus the lama, yidam and dharma protectors.

[Apech]

49 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

I wasn't aware the topic was focused on "light practices" but energy practices between people in general. Especially since any such talk on the dangers from practices like merging is being discussed by those with no experience of it.

 

Just like I would never comment on any dangers of Vajrayana practices because I have no experience with them.

 

 

fair enough - but I'm not sure why you said this.

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

Usually to the refuge assembly which is the usual objects of refuge plus the lama, yidam and dharma protectors.

 

Thanks.  Possible to transfer merit to an ancestor / family member or just to those "higher aspects"?

[Apech]

36 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Thanks.  Possible to transfer merit to an ancestor / family member or just to those "higher aspects"?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_of_merit

[Fa Xin]

So I voted yes.  Wanted to share one of the positive benefits I've had working with other people...

 

I've always been rather sensitive and empathetic to people around me.  The last few years it has gotten much stronger, due to meditation practices that have opened me up.  If in a large crowd, I would become tired and get a migraine.  If in a class, I would sometimes shake like I was very cold.  I attributed this to "anxiety" for a long time, and tried many ways to solve this problem on my own.  Things like supplements, more meditation, mind over matter. Even did try various visualizations to block stuff out.

 

It wasn't until I started working with people that I began to notice what was really happening.  I learned to tell what was my own energy and what was others energy ... I learned what "connections" I was still holding onto, that would cause this.  I was essentially going into a group of people - like a class room or party - and connecting with all of them - subconsciously - and getting caught in it. It would cause me immense migraines.  I've cleared about 90% of this ... it will still happen from time to time, but I manage it a lot easier.

 

Previous to this I worked alot with energy doing qigong and tai chi, but did not make the conscious connection until really learning to connect with other people.  I was pretty desperate for help - I even messaged a few members of this forum to ask for suggestions on what may be causing my migraines... I knew it wasn't a health issue, since it only happened in crowds. Luckily I found someone who helped me.

 

Think about how much we rely on others.  Despite any intentions to wall yourself up, interacting with people is unavoidable, and our lives are based in relationships.  Even a small encounter at a store can have lasting energetic ramifications, and for sensitive people like myself - could leave the rest of your day very disturbed.  

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_of_merit

 

Ok, now I completely give up related to past discussions.  This specifically says that you can actually help others (skipping karma) by mind based transmissions (and wishing)...

 

Transferring merit to another person, usually deceased relatives, is simply done by a mental wish. Despite the word transfer, the merit of the giver is in no way decreased during such an act, just like a candle used to light another candle does not diminish.^[11][12][13] The merit transferred cannot always be received, however. If dead relatives are reborn in a place that is too high or too low, as a deva, as a human, as an animal or in hell, they cannot receive the merit.^[14][15] They must also be able to sympathize with the meritorious act.

[silent thunder]

I really appreciate this conversation.  Thank you all.

 

 

 

[Apech]

18 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Ok, now I completely give up related to past discussions.  This specifically says that you can actually help others (skipping karma) by mind based transmissions (and wishing)...

 

Transferring merit to another person, usually deceased relatives, is simply done by a mental wish. Despite the word transfer, the merit of the giver is in no way decreased during such an act, just like a candle used to light another candle does not diminish.^[11][12][13] The merit transferred cannot always be received, however. If dead relatives are reborn in a place that is too high or too low, as a deva, as a human, as an animal or in hell, they cannot receive the merit.^[14][15] They must also be able to sympathize with the meritorious act.

 

 

[Jeff]

17 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

 

So with that smile, can I count you in with agreeing that it is (a buddhist view and) possible to directly mind to mind help other sentient beings, and also that it is possible to bypass karma...?

 

Or, do you still believe that you have to suffer through the cold/flu on your own?

 

[C T]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Ok thanks - I'll let CT run with that.

 

 

 

There are many references to a 'storehouse of merit' in various Vajrayana texts and commentaries.

 

For example, in Lama Tsongkapa's Steps To Enlightenment:  "When you compose or recite a homage to these worthy objects, you create a great storehouse of merit. This is the positive potential and good fortune that enables you to avoid or overcome obstacles." 

 

Elsewhere... 

 

"Ever enhancing your enlightened motive of bodhicitta is the mainstay of the path of the supreme Yana. It is the basis and the foundation for the great tide of altruistic conduct. Like an elixir which produces gold, it turns everything into the two treasures of merit and insight, forming a storehouse of merit gleaned from infinitely collected virtues." 

 

In the Lalita-vistara Sutra it is said, "The fruit of meritorious action is happiness and the elimination of all suffering. Those who possess merit will be able to accomplish their goals. Conquering the maras, they quickly reach enlightenment and attain the fruit of nirvana, the peace that cools the fire of suffering."

 

Its difficult to expand on the concept to non- Vajrayana practitioners. These points are often misconstrued and tend to be taken too literally. For example, the mere mention of 'containment' was enough to cause confusion, let alone lengthier discourse on the subject. 

 

Those who genuinely want to understand can further their own research. Lama Tsongkhapa's work cited above is a good starting point. But I doubt there'll be much interest. 

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

So with that smile, can I count you in with agreeing that it is (a buddhist view and) possible to directly mind to mind help other sentient beings, and also that it is possible to bypass karma...?

 

Or, do you still believe that you have to suffer through the cold/flu on your own?

 

 

What are you talking about?

[Jeff]

20 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

What are you talking about?

 

Exactly what the question was asking specifically regarding your post on merit transfer... Your post said it was possible to help other sentient beings with mind to mind transfer/transmission.  And also, that such transfer and help allows one to bypass karma. That one does not need to do it step by step on their own.  Just asking if you agreed with it, others have said that it is not possible.

 

 

[Apech]

25 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Exactly what the question was asking specifically regarding your post on merit transfer... Your post said it was possible to help other sentient beings with mind to mind transfer/transmission.  And also, that such transfer and help allows one to bypass karma. That one does not need to do it step by step on their own.  Just asking if you agreed with it, others have said that it is not possible.

 

 

 

 

I've never said you can't energy share or whatever.  Bypass karma hmmm that's actually a tricky one - you can certainly burn it off and you can alleviate the effects also I think - not sure about the 'bypass' part.

 

If you can't help other beings you wouldn't be much of a Mahayana Buddhist would you

[dwai]

20 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Exactly what the question was asking specifically regarding your post on merit transfer... Your post said it was possible to help other sentient beings with mind to mind transfer/transmission.  And also, that such transfer and help allows one to bypass karma. That one does not need to do it step by step on their own.  Just asking if you agreed with it, others have said that it is not possible.

 

 

I suspect that the general interpretation is literal (from reading the wikipedia article). So if you do punya (or meritorious actions and accrue  good fruits of that karma), then if you want, you can mentally transfer them to others (deceased relatives or all sentient beings). The condition being that the sentient beings must rejoice in your actions and recognize them as being meritorious actions, etc.

 

The article is indicating that it is  similar to the ritualistic offerings done on behalf of ancestors or all sentient beings in Hindu dharma (via yajnas and homas). However, it is perhaps unknown to the authors of this article that in Hindu dharma, the external rituals always should go hand in hand with internal rituals. So if you are creating a fire externally, you will be creating a fire internally. What you offer in terms of sense objects externally (incense for smell, mantra for sound, food for tongue, light for eyes, other materials like clothes for the tactile senses, you are doing to your internal senses as well internally. It is a process of sacrificially offering internally, what is offered externally. This accrues "good karma". Then it is a matter of doing it on behalf of ancestors or some other specific purpose. 

 

So it is entirely possible to do away with the external or internal ritualistic parts if one has a strong enough of intent to offer up the fruits of one's good karma to select few or many or all beings (as the case might be). 

[Apech]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

I suspect that the general interpretation is literal (from reading the wikipedia article). So if you do punya (or meritorious actions and accrue  good fruits of that karma), then if you want, you can mentally transfer them to others (deceased relatives or all sentient beings). The condition being that the sentient beings must rejoice in your actions and recognize them as being meritorious actions, etc.

 

The article is indicating that it is  similar to the ritualistic offerings done on behalf of ancestors or all sentient beings in Hindu dharma (via yajnas and homas). However, it is perhaps unknown to the authors of this article that in Hindu dharma, the external rituals always should go hand in hand with internal rituals. So if you are creating a fire externally, you will be creating a fire internally. What you offer in terms of sense objects externally (incense for smell, mantra for sound, food for tongue, light for eyes, other materials like clothes for the tactile senses, you are doing to your internal senses as well internally. It is a process of sacrificially offering internally, what is offered externally. This accrues "good karma". Then it is a matter of doing it on behalf of ancestors or some other specific purpose. 

 

So it is entirely possible to do away with the external or internal ritualistic parts if one has a strong enough of intent to offer up the fruits of one's good karma to select few or many or all beings (as the case might be). 

 

 

Interesting Dwai - of course a lot of 'cultural Buddhism' is vedic influenced   the more i read of Hindu/Buddhist/Jain history I see more cousins than strangers (though families do fight of course :))

[Jeff]

Just now, Apech said:

 

 

I've never said you can't energy share or whatever.  Bypass karma hmmm that's actually a tricky one - you can certainly burn it off and you can alleviate the effects also I think - not sure about the 'bypass' part.

 

If you can't help other beings you wouldn't be much of a Mahayana Buddhist would you

 

Burning off someone else's karma means that the person doesn't have to deal with it themselves (hence bypassing).

 

Didn't mean to say that you personally said that you couldn't remotely mind to mind (or energetically) directly help others, just that it has been a position expressed here by some buddhists (including Malcolm who says it is impossible).  So I was simply asking if  I could "count you in" on agreeing.

 

So thanks, sounds like we can agree on the following statement... Methods of remotely burning  karma off of others are a valuable part of the spiritual process.