Remote two-person and group energetic practices

[dwai]

2 hours ago, dawei said:

 

I'm not sure if you're just asking a trick question here 

 

My understanding of your asking is:  If you have dropped the doer, you have dropped practicing... so what is mindfulness now?

 

From that level of practice, there is no doer and no practice... it is just what at that point?   

The Dropping of doership and not doing is not an all or nothing phenomenon imho. We drop doership in various ways. Some all at once, others little at a time. Along with that also arises not-doing spontaneously. 

 

Indeed it is is very valuable to have a practice but, if we look at what our daily experiences are - when are we not aware of the contents of our mind? When are we not already aware? The problem is with identification. When I ask “who is doing the practice of being mindful?”, does it not beg the question when are not aware of the contents of our mind? When we are “not being mindful”, are we not aware of the contents of our mind then?

 

The “doer” in this case is not who thinks he/she is practicing at all. That is just a habit. The awareness is always aware. 

[Spotless]

1 hour ago, C T said:

Thanks for taking the time to offer some feedback, Spotless. 

 

Just want to point that in the overall context of what I wrote, the 'wedge'  does not reference identification with any particular malady - it was used as an umbrella analogy for the human condition known as 'discontentedness'. 

Definitely got that - 🙏🏻

[MooNiNite]

There are a lot of group practices for healing that I have come across.

 

Others involve circles of people holding hands, which seem interesting.

[Bindi]

If the group included someone who was led purely by their 'higher mind' and this person was in charge of the process then there might be no problem, but without that any decisions made about how to pursue energy are guaranteed to be flawed, it would be like driving a car with access to the accelerator but no steering wheel. 

 

It seems to me that for many people a fast car without a steering wheel is better than no car at all, because the alternative, peeling back the layers to reveal the higher mind, is an awfully long and arduous process, and unlikely to be achieved by many in this lifetime.  

 

 

[C T]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

If the group included someone who was led purely by their 'higher mind' and this person was in charge of the process then there might be no problem, but without that any decisions made about how to pursue energy are guaranteed to be flawed, it would be like driving a car with access to the accelerator but no steering wheel. 

 

It seems to me that for many people a fast car without a steering wheel is better than no car at all, because the alternative, peeling back the layers to reveal the higher mind, is an awfully long and arduous process, and unlikely to be achieved by many in this lifetime.  

 

 

 

Even with a steering wheel the potential for carelessness and accident is par for the course whenever one takes a car on the road. That's why there's insurance safeguards. I think anyone who participates in such sharings will be in a better place, and also better able to make informed decisions knowing what particular safeguards are in place.

 

 

 

To expand further on the 'no' vote...

 

Simply saying that a group or a leader of a group is guided by compassionate motives is not an effective safeguard, imo. Neither is finding a leader who seems to exude charisma, and/or possess some psychic ability(s) which are used as a basis to 'attract' participation, and in my view, the least effective and most risky factor to bear in mind is that such intimate participations are conducted in non-physical conditions. Deviant practices can often be disguised to portray something that is forthright, altruistic and without any harmful potential, and to a degree some may indeed be sincere and have pure intentions. These are often not sufficiently protective enough to ensure that the group dynamic will be shielded enough so that potential negativity, both from within the group and maybe from unintentional collision/or even a simple brushing-up against a wandering, unfriendly entity, can be absolutely avoided. This is quite crucial for many obvious reasons. 

 

Of course people can choose to disregard all the above as superstitious nonsense, but that would be quite foolish - if remote exchanges of 'presence' are indeed a reality (I think it is), then such considerations regarding incidental interceptions by unsympathetic entities cannot be ignored due to the very nature and openness of such a practice. Even if no such interference from an external force have been experienced, the very fact of a potential influence should be enough to alert the vitalness of proper shielding. 

 

Im only offering a general view here - again, not aiming it at any particular group here or elsewhere. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by C T

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, C T said:

 

Even with a steering wheel the potential for carelessness and accident is par for the course whenever one takes a car on the road. That's why there's insurance safeguards. I think anyone who participates in such sharings will be in a better place, and also better able to make informed decisions knowing what particular safeguards are in place.

 

To expand further on the 'no' vote...

 

Simply saying that a group or a leader of a group is guided by compassionate motives is not an effective safeguard, imo. Neither is finding a leader who seems to exude charisma, and/or possess some psychic ability(s) which are used as a basis to 'attract' participation, and in my view, the least effective and most risky factor to bear in mind is that such intimate participations are conducted in non-physical conditions. Deviant practices can often be disguised to portray something that is forthright, altruistic and without any harmful potential, and to a degree some may indeed be sincere and have pure intentions. These are often not sufficiently protective enough to ensure that the group dynamic will be shielded enough so that potential negativity, both from within the group and maybe from unintentional collision/or even a simple brushing-up against a wandering, unfriendly entity, can be absolutely avoided. This is quite crucial for many obvious reasons. 

 

Of course people can choose to disregard all the above as superstitious nonsense, but that would be quite foolish - if remote exchanges of 'presence' are indeed a reality (I think it is), then such considerations regarding incidental interceptions by unsympathetic entities cannot be ignored due to the very nature and openness of such a practice. Even if no such interference from an external force have been experienced, the very fact of a potential influence should be enough to alert the vitalness of proper shielding. 

 

Im only offering a general view here - again, not aiming it at any particular group here or elsewhere. 

 

Sounds like you have personally had some really bad remote energy experiences. What kinds of activities have you done where the group was attacked by unfriendly entities? Part of your Buddhist practices?  Also, what kind of shielding have you used or recommend? 

[C T]

42 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Sounds like you have personally had some really bad remote energy experiences. What kinds of activities have you done where the group was attacked by unfriendly entities? Part of your Buddhist practices?  Also, what kind of shielding have you used or recommend? 

 

lol so by that logic a doctor advising a patient on a certain medical condition must have experienced that condition before he can offer advice? 

 

The groups i have practiced with fortunately take all the necessary precautions to sanctify the space, both within the practice area and the outside environment, before each group spiritual practice takes place. This serves a dual purpose: One, to create an essentially pure environment when invoking the Dharma retinue (Lama, Yidam & Khandro) to ensure their swift blessings, and Two, to negate the potential for any incidental negative visitations or interference. 

 

As to the specific shielding modalities we use, afraid not relevant here. Each tradition have their own unique methods; moreover, different environments and group dynamics would determine the type of ritual that is needed. This is a responsibility that all authentic Vajrayana masters take seriously. After all, that is the whole function of creating a sacred mandala, without which all the rest of the path becomes moot. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by C T

[Jeff]

12 minutes ago, C T said:

 

lol so by that logic a doctor advising a patient on a certain medical condition must have experienced that condition before he can offer advice? 

 

The groups i have practiced with fortunately take all the necessary precautions to sanctify the space, both within the practice area and the outside environment, before each group spiritual practice takes place. This serves a dual purpose: One, to create an essentially pure environment when invoking the Dharma retinue (Lama, Yidam & Khandro) to ensure their swift blessings, and Two, to negate the potential for any incidental negative visitations or interference. 

 

As to the specific shielding modalities we use, afraid not relevant here. Each tradition have their own unique methods; moreover, different environments and group dynamics would determine the type of ritual that is needed. This is a responsibility that all authentic Vajrayana masters take seriously. After all, that is the whole function of creating a sacred mandala, without which all the rest of the path becomes moot. 

 

Ok, sorry if I misunderstood your post. Good to hear that you have not had any such bad experiences.  

[silent thunder]

I vote yes...

Now, while I love to swim, I don't swim in every pool of water I encounter.

Simple presence seems all that is required to determine where I will swim.

 

A recent realization alighted in awareness... that my relationship to and image of my energy body has up to now been saturated with my own latent materialist tendencies and filters.  I had been imagining, through my Qi Gong and energy work, that my energy body was shaped like my physical body, existed in a place related to, or near my physical body and that unspoken even to myself, that this energy body behaves according to similar principles and processes to the physical, subject to external viruses and attacks, energetic gravity and such, and that it is harboring defenses and anti-bodies for protection. 

 

That evaporated very recently in an experience of release. 

 

Utterly releasing, or more accurately, no longer being willing to maintain all notions of a self that needs defending from others who are apart. 

 

Sudden realization of the complete acceptance of all phenomena, noumena, ontological processes as cloudlike, illusory, shadow puppetry... as a result, instantly there came a spontaneous unreification of all concepts and notions...  and a dissolving/releasing of the process that support reifying of ideas/concepts.  This simultaneously resulted in a total dissolution, until yin (which I imagined briefly "i" was still abiding in itself as a concept dissolved along with all notions of self, intent, thought, emotion, identity or others.

 

When all that I maintained through belief, projection and illusory identification with process and reified mental concepts was no longer being maintained... that which remains... was gossamer, subtle and pervasive awareness. 

 

Awareness in which no separation abides.  None possible as there are no refied objects, no mind process, no emotional tones.  Awareness Presence, that like the sky, remains unblemished no matter how many emotional/thought clouds raise hell in it.  No bird shit smears it and even with the most amazing skills and tools imaginable, I cannot drive a nail into it, nor spit on it, stain it, paint it, or scratch it. 

 

In this, there is no harm possible, nor elevation.  Merging is merely the dropping of the illusions of separation that are mere shadow puppets. 

 

Though I fully understand the reluctance on an unspoken level for many when matters of this are brought up.

Intimacy can be terrifying for some.  Even the mere idea of opening up... before any exchange manifests, the sheer act of opening up with intention to connect, can release storms that lay within our mental/emotional landscape.  Some folks can feel that as they approach the notion of opening up and the fear is a deal killer. 

 

So be it.  As with all things.  In your own time, walk your path. 

No fear here any longer.  No possibility to worry about such unrealities as protection shields, or psychic and entity assaults. 

One Awareness.

 

Mind manifestations of shadow playing with projections birthing illusory stories which create a relationship with others whereby a sense of self is generated, that may then be savored, worshipped and defended vigorously.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  Merge, don't merge... wake up, sleep... walk the path, don't walk...

 

 

[C T]

But we still tidy the house before welcoming guests... well, most do anyway. 

[s1va]

18 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

 

In this, there is no harm possible, nor elevation.  Merging is merely the dropping of the illusions of separation that are mere shadow puppets. 

 

Very well said. Thank you.

[s1va]

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

If the group included someone who was led purely by their 'higher mind' and this person was in charge of the process then there might be no problem, but without that any decisions made about how to pursue energy are guaranteed to be flawed, it would be like driving a car with access to the accelerator but no steering wheel. 

 

It seems to me that for many people a fast car without a steering wheel is better than no car at all, because the alternative, peeling back the layers to reveal the higher mind, is an awfully long and arduous process, and unlikely to be achieved by many in this lifetime.  

 

 

 

Perhaps some of these people are on a rail car that does not need steering wheel

 

For a long time, I thought I was the one driving, steering, speeding, etc.  But, when I let go and relaxed,  I realized my steering wheel is just my mind's toy.  I am just part of this rail car, which is going on a track.  Even more amazing is the glimpses of the revelation, I am not lifetimes away from destination.  This rail car, where I am right now, is the destination.  It was the destination always.

[Jeff]

22 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Perhaps some of these people are on a rail car that does not need steering wheel

 

For a long time, I thought I was the one driving, steering, speeding, etc.  But, when I let go and relaxed,  I realized my steering wheel is just my mind's toy.  I am just part of this rail car, which is going on a track.  Even more amazing is the glimpses of the revelation, I am not lifetimes away from destination.  This rail car, where I am right now, is the destination.  It was the destination always.

 

Very profound point. Thank you. Also, for me it is same with things like shielding. The more you try to protect yourself from things  “outside” or that could attack you, the more your mind creates mental barriers of “you”. To me, the spiritual process is about simply (trusting and) letting go... 

 

[C T]

13 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Very profound point. Thank you. Also, for me it is same with things like shielding. The more you try to protect yourself from things  “outside” or that could attack you, the more your mind creates mental barriers of “you”. To me, the spiritual process is about simply (trusting and) letting go... 

 

 

Lol - - sounds like there's no basis then for all of the thousands of posts here about people encountering spiritual upheavals in their life (and also their spiritual life). Just carry on, learn to be trusting (even the 'beasts out there' somewhere?) - just let them all go, and everything will be rosy? Is that your group's modus operandi? 

 

Thats pure naivete, and an irresponsible approach considering the kind of work your group is involved in. 

Dont we all wish it was as plain-sailing as what is being implied here. 

 

[Fa Xin]

6 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Lol - - sounds like there's no basis then for all of the thousands of posts here about people encountering spiritual upheavals in their life (and also their spiritual life). Just carry on, learn to be trusting (even the 'beasts out there' somewhere?) - just let them all go, and everything will be rosy? Is that your group's modus operandi? 

 

Thats pure naivete, and an irresponsible approach considering the kind of work your group is involved in. 

Dont we all wish it was as plain-sailing as what is being implied here. 

 

Yikes 😬

[s1va]

Trust and common sense can coexist.  (Trust is just inner faith.)

[C T]

19 minutes ago, s1va said:

Trust and common sense can coexist.  (Trust is just inner faith.)

 

The term 'sharing presence' (and or 'merging') in this context implies some sort of supramundane engagement and activity - pursuant to this, there are implied grounds where common sense has its limits. 

 

If common sense and trust were the only basis there would not be the kind of voluminous posts found on TDB of people coming here seeking answers and seeking solutions for a variety of 'spiritual' sicknesses. Their dilemmas are real to them. Its irresponsible and disrespectful to simply brush these things aside, as if they were all figments of the individual's imagination. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by C T

[Fa Xin]

I feel like trusting and letting go are very basic, yet important ideas in ones spiritual journey. 

 

What exactly are you saying is wrong with these ideas?

[s1va]

15 minutes ago, C T said:

 

The term 'sharing presence' (and or 'merging') in this context implies some sort of supramundane engagement and activity - pursuant to this, there are implied grounds where common sense has its limits. 

 

If common sense and trust were the only basis there would not be the kind of voluminous posts found on TDB of people coming here seeking answers and seeking solutions for a variety of 'spiritual' sicknesses. Their dilemmas are real to them. Its irresponsible and disrespectful to simply brush these things aside, as if they were all figments of the individual's imagination. 

 

And, your point is?  

 

I am not denying there are people seeking solution for spiritual sickness.  What does it have to do with trust and letting go, ( that Jeff mentioned), which are the cornerstone of many religions including Daoism?  Sorry, I don't understand this outburst.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, C T said:

 

Lol - - sounds like there's no basis then for all of the thousands of posts here about people encountering spiritual upheavals in their life (and also their spiritual life). Just carry on, learn to be trusting (even the 'beasts out there' somewhere?) - just let them all go, and everything will be rosy? Is that your group's modus operandi? 

 

Thats pure naivete, and an irresponsible approach considering the kind of work your group is involved in. 

Dont we all wish it was as plain-sailing as what is being implied here. 

 

 

Yes, letting go of such fears and attachments in the mind are the nature of it. Seeing through the energetic projections that manifest in your mind. Simply “knowing” that such things are such are empty. Open the heart and trusting is a huge first step.

 

But here is my advice for any who are being attacked by such energy monsters... Do not run, do not hide, do not try to build some mental energy shield... Instead, face it head on with an open and loving heart. No attacking energy monster can withstand the light and love of a good hug. Burn it clear with your love and light. Simply know that it cannot really hurt you. Such fear is all in your mind...

 

And yes, this is the kind of thing our group likes to do.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Jeff

[rainbowvein]

That is the naïveté that CT and others warn about, my friend.  

[Jeff]

18 minutes ago, rainbowvein said:

That is the naïveté that CT and others warn about, my friend.  

 

Maybe so, but I am good with it.    As the TTC states, open your mind, open your heart, empty yourself and the monsters will become still...

 

Tao Te Ching - Chapter 16

 

Empty yourself of everything. Let the mind become still.

The ten thousand things rise and fall while the self watches their return.

They grow and flourish and then return to the source.

Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature.

The way of nature is unchanging. Knowing constancy is insight.

Not knowing constancy leads to disaster. Knowing constancy, the mind is open.

With an open mind, you will be openhearted.

Being openhearted, you will act royally. Being royal, you will attain the divine.

Being divine, you will be at one with the Tao. Being at one with the Tao is eternal.

And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away.

[s1va]

18 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Yes, letting go of such fears and attachments in the mind are the nature of it. Seeing through the energetic projections that manifest in your mind. Simply “knowing” that such things are such are empty. Open the heart and trusting is a huge first step.

 

But here is my advice for any who are being attacked by such energy monsters... Do not run, do not hide, do not try to build some mental energy shield... Instead, face it head on with an open and loving heart. No attacking energy monster can withstand the light and love of a good hug. Burn it clear with your love and light. Simply know that it cannot really hurt you. Such fear is all in your mind...

 

And yes, this is the kind of thing our group likes to do.

 

Powerful words __/\__.  Some  great masters from past also taught to show the other cheek, even in the external world.

 

Sadly, many of us are not there yet, to claim we have conquered fear completely.  Some of us are not ready to even hear such things or entertain such ideas, let alone implement them.  So, this can possibly sound naieve or dangerous to some of us.

[Jeff]

21 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Powerful words __/\__.  Some  great masters from past also taught to show the other cheek, even in the external world.

 

Sadly, many of us are not there yet, to claim we have conquered fear completely.  Some of us are not ready to even hear such things or entertain such ideas, let alone implement them.  So, this can possibly sound naieve or dangerous to some of us.

 

I agree that it not easy, but it is a choice...

 

Chapter 76

 

We are born gentle and weak, but at death are stiff and hard.

Green plants are tender and filled with sap. At their death they are withered and dry.

Therefore the stiff and unbending is the disciple of death. The gentle and yielding is the disciple of life.

Thus an army without flexibility never wins a battle. A tree that is unbending is easily broken.

The hard and strong will fall. The soft and weak will overcome.

 

Gentle and yielding with an open heart will overcome...

[C T]

18 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

I feel like trusting and letting go are very basic, yet important ideas in ones spiritual journey. 

 

What exactly are you saying is wrong with these ideas?

 

Fundamentally there's nothing 'wrong' with such encouragements if applied in a general sense of finding a level of well-being to get on with one's life. But these are whats known as 'mundane' guides that are limited in their application. Sometimes... no, in fact, most of the time, retaining a keen sense of scepticism (around anything to do with spiritual interactions) can be extremely useful and goes some way to keep one safe. Just like when someone happens to be in a precarious neighbourhood, it is unwise to open the door trustingly and invite strangers into the house. Thats where common sense applies, and yet, in the best of times, it still happens. Not all strangers have nefarious motives, that is sure, but this is where common sense becomes helpful. Not all strangers who come calling are sincere either, yes? Thats why houses have doors - they serve a primary purpose, other than to keep out the rain and drafts, regardless of how trusting the homeowner may be. 

 

If someone offers to do a remote scan, for example, which by its very suggestion is an activity that transpires outside of the mundane, then asking someone to 'let go and trust' and for that someone to afterwards accept that suggestion based simply on that premise is foolish. The very act of 'letting go and trusting' carries with it certain vulnerabilities that transcends the mundane in the context of such an exercise. I cannot say what these vulnerabilities are, specifically - it depends on circumstantial as well as individual proclivities - a lot of psycho-spiritual traumas lie dormant, so this is another factor to bear in mind. 

 

In short, the very nature of applying umbrella terms to try and make sense of the limitless subtleties/nuances involved in non-physical transactions is not exactly sound. People will be better served adhering to authentic traditions that provide systematic and guided schemas that have been forged with precision and time-tested to prove their accuracy and dependability.