Remote two-person and group energetic practices

[Apech]

Just now, Jeff said:

 

Burning off someone else's karma means that the person doesn't have to deal with it themselves (hence bypassing).

 

Didn't mean to say that you personally said that you couldn't remotely mind to mind (or energetically) directly help others, just that it has been a position expressed here by some buddhists (including Malcolm who says it is impossible).  So I was simply asking if  I could "count you in" on agreeing.

 

So thanks, sounds like we can agree on the following statement... Methods of remotely burning  karma off of others are a valuable part of the spiritual process.

 

 

Well Buddha is the big white umbrella.

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

I suspect that the general interpretation is literal (from reading the wikipedia article). So if you do punya (or meritorious actions and accrue  good fruits of that karma), then if you want, you can mentally transfer them to others (deceased relatives or all sentient beings). The condition being that the sentient beings must rejoice in your actions and recognize them as being meritorious actions, etc.

 

The article is indicating that it is  similar to the ritualistic offerings done on behalf of ancestors or all sentient beings in Hindu dharma (via yajnas and homas). However, it is perhaps unknown to the authors of this article that in Hindu dharma, the external rituals always should go hand in hand with internal rituals. So if you are creating a fire externally, you will be creating a fire internally. What you offer in terms of sense objects externally (incense for smell, mantra for sound, food for tongue, light for eyes, other materials like clothes for the tactile senses, you are doing to your internal senses as well internally. It is a process of sacrificially offering internally, what is offered externally. This accrues "good karma". Then it is a matter of doing it on behalf of ancestors or some other specific purpose. 

 

So it is entirely possible to do away with the external or internal ritualistic parts if one has a strong enough of intent to offer up the fruits of one's good karma to select few or many or all beings (as the case might be). 

 

To me this is simply saying that people can only transmit merit to others related to "resonance" or accepting of the transfer.  They rejoice (or resonate) with the merit/energy.

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Well Buddha is the big white umbrella.

 

Is that supposed to be a yes to my statement/question?  That we agree about remote karma burning help?

 

[C T]

There's a similar concept in Christian theology as well, although its clear there is a marked contrast in application/practicalities. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasury_of_merit

 

[Jeff]

Just now, C T said:

There's a similar concept in Christian theology as well, although its clear there is a marked contrast in application/practicalities. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasury_of_merit

 

 

Yes, but that is something that the pope declared for himself and has no support in the gospels.  Led to the selling of indulgences(buying access into heaven) in the Middle Ages. This concept was one of the major reasons for the protestant reformation.

 

But, more broadly I would agree that there are similar concepts around families praying for the dead.  The prayers are much like the concept of sharing merit help the ancestor move on from bardo into their "higher" next life (heaven).

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, C T said:

There's a similar concept in Christian theology as well, although its clear there is a marked contrast in application/practicalities. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasury_of_merit

 

 

CT - What about you on the concept of being able to directly help others by remotely burning off karma?  Possible, and a good thing to do?

[C T]

9 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Is that supposed to be a yes to my statement/question?  That we agree about remote karma burning help?

 

 

The intention to relief other beings' suffering forms the basis for the bodhisattva ideal. 

 

At the level of intention, one is responsible and can succeed only in reducing personal karmic propensities, but not limited or restricted in the cultivation of an altruistic mindset that mimics that of enlightened bodhisattvas who possess infallible clairvoyant ability to fully 'see' beings' past, present and future karma, and can therefore act with unmistaken altruism. This is a serious accomplishment, with immense implications. Until aspiring bodhisattvas attain to that permanent stability, 'burning other beings' karma' is solely performed at the level of intention, as indicated above. To do otherwise is folly, but it does not mean one cannot 'act as if' one is already a mahasattva bodhisattva, provided one adheres to the guidelines laid down in the bodhisattva vows. 

[C T]

26 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

CT - What about you on the concept of being able to directly help others by remotely burning off karma?  Possible, and a good thing to do?

 

Just saw this post. View given above 

[C T]

Unless something drastically transformative happens to me, I don't see myself ever reaching the level where i will be able to alleviate/burn/halt the impact of another being's karmic propensities. Maybe a teeny weeny tweak would be the best I can hope for. 

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, C T said:

 

The intention to relief other beings' suffering forms the basis for the bodhisattva ideal. 

 

At the level of intention, one is responsible and can succeed only in reducing personal karmic propensities, but not limited or restricted in the cultivation of an altruistic mindset that mimics that of enlightened bodhisattvas who possess infallible clairvoyant ability to fully 'see' beings' past, present and future karma, and can therefore act with unmistaken altruism. This is a serious accomplishment, with immense implications. Until aspiring bodhisattvas attain to that permanent stability, 'burning other beings' karma' is solely performed at the level of intention, as indicated above. To do otherwise is folly, but it does not mean one cannot 'act as if' one is already a mahasattva bodhisattva, provided one adheres to the guidelines laid down in the bodhisattva vows. 

 

Thanks for the response. Is that a quote or your personal view? 

 

Also, not sure what you are saying. Are you saying above that can’t really help another being, only really reduce your own personal karmic propensities? That all those people trying to transfer merit to Family members that Apech described are committing “folly” (or just deluded in their belief)?

 

And by permanent stability, do you mean that a Buddha can do it? Burn others karma away?

 

 

[C T]

7 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Thanks for the response. Is that a quote or your personal view? 

 

Also, not sure what you are saying. Are you saying above that can’t really help another being, only really reduce your own personal karmic propensities? That all those people trying to transfer merit to Family members that Apech described are committing “folly” (or just deluded in their belief)?

 

And by permanent stability, do you mean that a Buddha can do it? Burn others karma away?

 

 

 

It wasn't a quote. 

 

Just to clarify again, speaking for myself, at the level where I am at, with the limited cultivation done, I will not attempt the arrogant assumption that i am able to 'burn off' other beings' karma. Such an immense power is beyond my scope. A fully accomplished mahasiddha, mahasattva bodhisattva or a buddha may choose to exercise that siddhi if they deem it necessary, otherwise, mediocre practitioners like myself try to adopt the 'ahimsa' (non-harming) path to the best of our ability. 

 

According to what the masters have said, one must have attained to a level of permanent (unimpeded) clairvoyance before even considering such a practice. 

 

 

(apologies to Dwai for contributing to the deviation of the OP)

[Jeff]

26 minutes ago, C T said:

 

It wasn't a quote. 

 

Just to clarify again, speaking for myself, at the level where I am at, with the limited cultivation done, I will not attempt the arrogant assumption that i am able to 'burn off' other beings' karma. Such an immense power is beyond my scope. A fully accomplished mahasiddha, mahasattva bodhisattva or a buddha may choose to exercise that siddhi if they deem it necessary, otherwise, mediocre practitioners like myself try to adopt the 'ahimsa' (non-harming) path to the best of our ability. 

 

According to what the masters have said, one must have attained to a level of permanent (unimpeded) clairvoyance before even considering such a practice. 

 

 

(apologies to Dwai for contributing to the deviation of the OP)

 

Thanks for your response. So I then assume that the answer to my question is that you would not ever do something like merit transfer for your family? And for pretty much everyone it is a mistake (or arrogant or deluded) to even try?

[C T]

48 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Thanks for your response. So I then assume that the answer to my question is that you would not ever do something like merit transfer for your family? And for pretty much everyone it is a mistake (or arrogant or deluded) to even try?

 

I sometimes fantasise that my relatives will magically transfer money to me, and maybe they actually have that wish to share their material wealth, but until the actual physical transference takes place, I can only act by saving up money myself. But if I hear that they truly have such big hearts and make sincere expressions that they genuinely want to share their wealth with me when they have accumulated enough to stabilise their own position first, then even hearing that will bring me much delight. 

 

Another analogy - Think of it like a creation of a spiritual estate so that one creates a legacy (spiritually rather than materially) worthy enough that others can 'draw' upon it. This is how the great masters and buddhas of the past, present & future leave a rich heritage of blessings for others to tap into. Its freely and openly given to all without discrimination, but so far I have not heard any of my teachers say they have built up a wealth of merit and, out of compassion, acted for our benefit. Its for us to realise this as the relationship grows and develop. All the teacher need to do is remain open, and give his wisdom and guidance selflessly. How this is accepted is not his concern. 

 

In this way, its definitely not a mistake, and where is the arrogance to be found? 

Edited February 13, 2018 by C T

[Jetsun]

11 hours ago, C T said:

Unless something drastically transformative happens to me, I don't see myself ever reaching the level where i will be able to alleviate/burn/halt the impact of another being's karmic propensities. Maybe a teeny weeny tweak would be the best I can hope for. 

 

You won't ever be able to, nor will anybody else, but it can happen through divine grace. 

[C T]

26 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

 

You won't ever be able to, nor will anybody else, but it can happen through divine grace. 

It's nice contemplating divine grace but it's not exactly the kind of intervention that is supported in the traditional sense in our lineage. 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Jetsun said:

 

You won't ever be able to, nor will anybody else, but it can happen through divine grace. 

However, that divine grace often can and does work through apparent individuals  

[s1va]

3 hours ago, C T said:

It's nice contemplating divine grace but it's not exactly the kind of intervention that is supported in the traditional sense in our lineage. 

 

Blessings from Buddhas or deities are not divine grace? 

[C T]

9 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Blessings from Buddhas or deities are not divine grace? 

 

The blessings received are congruent and proportionately distributed depending on a number of factors that is directly related to individual effort in creating a fertile psycho-physical field for the blessings to manifest in one's stream of beingness. The more fertile the field the higher the yield. If there is no preparation, naturally the blessings will not have the right environment to germinate and provide a healthy return. Similarly, an heir to an estate needs to exercise sufficient self-governance and responsibility in the moral and ethical concerns regarding his or her inheritance - maintaining the 'legacy' is up to the individual. Some may inadvertently fail to take good care of the inheritance, with proportional consequences that will undermine his or her future, while others may opt for a more sensible and profitable approach, taking steps to 'grow' the inheritance. Dharma/spiritual heirs are no different when it comes to 'blessings'. Blessings are abundantly available in the universal field of merit - how these are accessed, utilised and maintained for growth is up to the individual. As the Buddha said, "We are all individually responsible for our own salvation." 

[Jonesboy]

36 minutes ago, C T said:

 

The blessings received are congruent and proportionately distributed depending on a number of factors that is directly related to individual effort in creating a fertile psycho-physical field for the blessings to manifest in one's stream of beingness. The more fertile the field the higher the yield.

 

So a divine being can influence ones mindstream or stream of being and the more open we are the greater the impact?

 

I would agree with that.

[Jetsun]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

However, that divine grace often can and does work through apparent individuals  

 

Yeah I agree, but it's when individuals claim responsibility and doership for this that it can cause problems. 

[Jonesboy]

6 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

 

Yeah I agree, but it's when individuals claim responsibility and doership for this that it can cause problems. 

 

If it is through them that such connections happen is that a doership and then wrong?

[C T]

36 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

So a divine being can influence ones mindstream or stream of being and the more open we are the greater the impact?

 

I would agree with that.

 

In a sense, yes. Only to the extent that the individual is not full of holes 

 

In our lineage it works a little differently. Rather than keeping the idea of being 'influenced' by a divine being, for us beginners, using the various practices and visualisations that we have received the appropriate empowerments for, initially we learn to mimic the enlightened qualities of a chosen yidam. Leaving details aside, over time the practitioner begins to manifest the exact same qualities of that particular yidam, and in the process give birth to a realisation of an inseparability of one's mindstream, the mindstream of Buddhas, the Yidams and Dakinis.

 

In the beginning stages, its as if there is a separation, but this separation is only self-created, an illusory view determined by habitual sensory perceptions. Although these sensory perceptions appear real, over time, the seeming solidity of separation brought about by ingrained habitual reactivity dissolves. From this perspective, the realisation arises that all along we were never apart from our true, enlightened nature. For the sake of conceptual reasoning, one can say its like a process of merging, which is partly right in a relative sense, but in the absolute ground, it is an unmerging from mistaken identity as one discovers the 'reality before dualistic view took over', and what happens then is a gradual return to a fundamentally self-perfected state, which has been there from beginningless time, exemplified by the Guru, Yidam and Dakini principle that is adopted as a basis, or reminder of perfection, by the Vajrayana practitioner. 

 

Thank you for the patience with my long-winded responses. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by C T

[Jetsun]

Just now, Jonesboy said:

 

If it is through them that such connections happen is that a doership and then wrong?

 

Depends what they believe they are doing. Not wrong but if you mistake the power of the divine for your own it will inflate your ego rather than humble you and allow you to surrender. It's a very subtle area but the ego will try co-op whatever you do to try to bring it into its own domain, I know from personal experience. 

 

For example Jesus never took any credit for whatever miracles or healing that happened through him, he would say to the individual that their faith redeemed them. 

[Jeff]

15 hours ago, C T said:

 

I sometimes fantasise that my relatives will magically transfer money to me, and maybe they actually have that wish to share their material wealth, but until the actual physical transference takes place, I can only act by saving up money myself. But if I hear that they truly have such big hearts and make sincere expressions that they genuinely want to share their wealth with me when they have accumulated enough to stabilise their own position first, then even hearing that will bring me much delight. 

 

Another analogy - Think of it like a creation of a spiritual estate so that one creates a legacy (spiritually rather than materially) worthy enough that others can 'draw' upon it. This is how the great masters and buddhas of the past, present & future leave a rich heritage of blessings for others to tap into. Its freely and openly given to all without discrimination, but so far I have not heard any of my teachers say they have built up a wealth of merit and, out of compassion, acted for our benefit. Its for us to realise this as the relationship grows and develop. All the teacher need to do is remain open, and give his wisdom and guidance selflessly. How this is accepted is not his concern. 

 

In this way, its definitely not a mistake, and where is the arrogance to be found? 

 

Thank you for your response.  While we may disagree on a few points, I appreciate how your position is consistent and logically flows.  It was also helpful to me to better understand some of the differences between the frameworks/views of Buddhist yanas.

[Jonesboy]

6 minutes ago, C T said:

 

In a sense, yes. Only to the extent that the individual is not full of holes 

 

In our lineage it works a little differently. Rather than keeping the idea of being 'influenced' by a divine being, for us beginners, using the various practices and visualisations that we have received the appropriate empowerments for, initially we learn to mimic the enlightened qualities of a chosen yidam. Leaving details aside, over time the practitioner begins to manifest the exact same qualities of that particular yidam, and in the process give birth to a realisation of an inseparability of one's mindstream, the mindstream of Buddhas, the Yidams and Dakinis.

 

In the beginning stages, its as if there is a separation, but this separation is only self-created, an illusory view determined by habitual sensory perceptions. Although these sensory perceptions appear real, over time, the seeming solidity of separation brought about by ingrained habitual reactivity dissolves. From this perspective, the realisation arises that all along we were never apart from our true, enlightened nature. For the sake of conceptual reasoning, one can say its like a process of merging, which is partly right in a relative sense, but in the absolute ground, it is an unmerging from mistaken identity as one discovers the 'reality before dualistic view took over', and what happens then is a gradual return to a fundamentally self-perfected state, which has along been there, exemplified by the Guru, Yidam and Dakini principle that is adopted as a basis, or reminder of perfection, by the Vajrayana practitioner. 

 

Thank you for the patience with my long-winded responses. 

 

I would say my tradition is much different.

 

We have multiple ways of helping people connect to the divine.

 

I have seen people experience the love of Jesus pouring out of them and then connect to Yahweh and feel a love that is ever growing flowing out of their hearts. All from the person helping them to experience these great beings doing nothing at all.

 

That divine grace is such a blessing as it helps to clear away in us that which keeps us from realizing that same divine nature.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Jonesboy