Burning off karma

[Apech]

I just wanted to discuss burning off 'karma' and so on without hijacking the other thread.

 

i think there's two levels to this.  One is the adventitious material that collects to the subtle body in the same way as the physical body gets dirty.  The Egyptians had a word for this which was 'dw'.  It could be understood much in the same way as dust accumulates on your TV set because of the static electricity which the electronics generate.  So the dust is there because of the TV set but not generated by it.

 

This 'dw' was purified in two ways - first by water libations:

 

 

- as you can see this is the idea of energy washing down from the crown (which is common to purification in many systems).

 

The second is by burning out the 'dw' - which is the Eye of Horus as a flame burning out the impurities - in certain Egyptian lineages this was symbolised by the hypocephalus which was an inscribed paper disk placed behind the head:

 

 

- incidentally one of these disks was mis-translated by Joseph Smith as an Abrahamic text when he set up Mormonism

 

So - purification by water and then fire (which makes one think of Baptism).

 

Now the Buddha said 'karma is intent' - which is significant because karma actually means literally 'action'.  So apart from the 'dirt' which needs to be cleaned out there is also intent.  the question is then - can another being (human or otherwise) redirect a person's intent and thus change their karma (in the sense of their life direction). ???????

 

 

[C T]

I understood Jeff's assertion to mean that it is possible for a 'master' (broad term) to absolve another being's past karma. Does this assumption imply a likelihood that Jeff might have intended to equate karma with the Christian concept of sin?  I think this is an important point for consideration that first needs to be made clear in order to further the discussion. 

 

Its evident (from a Buddhist standpoint) that both concepts differ vastly in terms of view and application. 

 

While there are many purification practices to be found across all Buddhist traditions, some of the ways in which these practices are carried out are quite dependent on social norms and localised customary lores and beliefs. In general, dictated by ancestral traditions, people seek out the help of monks, shamans and other intermediaries to intercede between them (the seekers) and the gods. This has been going on forever, across all civilisations. 

 

I guess the question of whether such intercessions are possible or not is as valid as the understanding of how the practice of such a custom affects the beliefs of one seeking intercession and/or absolution. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by C T

[Apech]

18 minutes ago, C T said:

I understood Jeff's assertion to mean that it is possible for a 'master' (broad term) to absolve another being's past karma. Does this assumption imply a likelihood that Jeff might have intended to equate karma with the Christian concept of sin?  I think this is an important point for consideration that first needs to be made clear in order to further the discussion. 

 

Its evident (from a Buddhist standpoint) that both concepts differ vastly in terms of view and application. 

 

While there are many purification practices to be found across all Buddhist traditions, some of the ways in which these practices are carried out are quite dependent on social norms and localised customary lores and beliefs. In general, dictated by ancestral traditions, people seek out the help of monks, shamans and other intermediaries to intercede between them (the seekers) and the gods. This has been going on forever, across all civilisations. 

 

I guess the question of whether such intercessions are possible or not is as valid as the understanding of how the practice of such a custom affects the beliefs of one seeking intercession and/or absolution. 

 

Maybe Jeff will answer that

[ChiForce]

Tough one...  Karma is made up of complex..psychological complex having its mind of its own.  I won't take it too literal about how to cleanse karma.  Burning up means working on your chakras and using your chi or wind energy to heat up your subtle body.  That's what usually happening when your kundalini energy begin to rise.  Is all internal.  You can help this process by working out and eating healthier.  

 

How do you tell someone that what they are doing is generating massive negative karma when, because of their delusional ego, they think they are doing great??    Won't they get defensive about it?  Won't they attack you?  I guess you can intervene only at the right moment when their karma has taken its course and is no longer as sticky as before.  You can't spare them completely though.  The actual work has to be done by the person themselves...... 

[Jeff]

55 minutes ago, C T said:

I understood Jeff's assertion to mean that it is possible for a 'master' (broad term) to absolve another being's past karma. Does this assumption imply a likelihood that Jeff might have intended to equate karma with the Christian concept of sin?  I think this is an important point for consideration that first needs to be made clear in order to further the discussion. 

 

Its evident (from a Buddhist standpoint) that both concepts differ vastly in terms of view and application. 

 

While there are many purification practices to be found across all Buddhist traditions, some of the ways in which these practices are carried out are quite dependent on social norms and localised customary lores and beliefs. In general, dictated by ancestral traditions, people seek out the help of monks, shamans and other intermediaries to intercede between them (the seekers) and the gods. This has been going on forever, across all civilisations. 

 

I guess the question of whether such intercessions are possible or not is as valid as the understanding of how the practice of such a custom affects the beliefs of one seeking intercession and/or absolution. 

 

No, I am not attempting to bring in the Christian concept of sin. As I have stated in many posts, I believe that institutional Christian church’s have lost/forgotten the true meaning of the teachings of Jesus. Also, rather than baptism, I would say that “true communion” that Jesus taught fits much more directly with Apech’s two compents of Fire and Water and the clearing/purification.

 

As to the potentiality of let’s call it “accelerated karma removal” with help from others, I would say it is definitely possible. While I don’t think it is helpful to worry about the differences between dust and dirt as with the Egyptian concept, I certainly think that conceptualizing it as something that needs to be cleared (or washed away) makes complete sense. Karma is effectively trapped (or stored) energy structures that cause autopilot responses. Clear away that “dirt” and one is no longer subject to those autopilot responses that whipsaw you through lives.

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

thanks @Apech, I like that, it sort of fits the way I look at it.

 

3 hours ago, Apech said:

I just wanted to discuss burning off 'karma' and so on without hijacking the other thread.

 

i think there's two levels to this.  One is the adventitious material that collects to the subtle body in the same way as the physical body gets dirty.  The Egyptians had a word for this which was 'dw'.  It could be understood much in the same way as dust accumulates on your TV set because of the static electricity which the electronics generate.  So the dust is there because of the TV set but not generated by it.

 

This 'dw' was purified in two ways - first by water libations:

 

 

- as you can see this is the idea of energy washing down from the crown (which is common to purification in many systems).

 

looking back, this is sort of what happened to me when I started working with my teacher, becoming aware of the daily accumulating dust. I tend to see it as ' layers' not as in believing that there are actual layers around my body, but metaphorical.

 

the outer layer is the dust the Egyptians talk about. When you diligently clean the outer layer there comes a moment that you find an inner layer...

 

looking back, I think that the startup work was what Chinese would call working with yin ( or something, y'all know i'm not versed in anything and don't particularly want to either, just Bessie)

 

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

The second is by burning out the 'dw' - which is the Eye of Horus as a flame burning out the impurities - in certain Egyptian lineages this was symbolised by the hypocephalus which was an inscribed paper disk placed behind the head:

 

 

the next layer is ' issues', stuck problems that ( at first) presented themselves as deep rooted emotional problems. A sort of conglomerate with ( as it felt for me) sort of one big issue in the middle. When I went through that, the fire thing happened and kundalini reared its tail.

 

At the same point in time I became aware of this as an understandable centre of a pattern ( meaning, I had known for many years that there are patterns to be seen in lives, whether own life or that of others) But the pattern all of a sudden made sense.

Now, I still am entangled by these patterns, but much more aware when them. I see them happening and be aware that it is that pattern, not needed to become emotional about it. I also see things happening in my life that do not conform to that old pattern, now that is interesting 

 

 

3 hours ago, Apech said:

- incidentally one of these disks was mis-translated by Joseph Smith as an Abrahamic text when he set up Mormonism

 

yep, we all mis-translate what we see, and feel, Me too 

 

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

So - purification by water and then fire (which makes one think of Baptism).

 

Now the Buddha said 'karma is intent' - which is significant because karma actually means literally 'action'.  So apart from the 'dirt' which needs to be cleaned out there is also intent.  the question is then - can another being (human or otherwise) redirect a person's intent and thus change their karma (in the sense of their life direction). ???????

 

 

I see it as sort of: this body-mind-sytem is sort of stuck in a rut ( that's the action, endlessly repeating the old pattern).

when you wash the outer dust and then burn the inner dirt...you can get out of your pattern.

 

what would come after that ?

 

and, me thinks when you have burned enough of the inner layer, maybe you do not gather dust on the outer layer as fast as you did before. And when you let it accumulate again, washing it away would let you find the inner layer pretty much in the state you left it when you started accumulating dust on the outer layer (may just be wishful thinking of course )

 

and yes, I think that other people/gods/entities/whatevers can assist in burning that inner layer away. But the pitfall in that is that the chance that you fall back in your old patterns seems much larger when someone else does the work, then when you do it yourself.

In other words, some one more evolved than you, can burn a hole in your inner layer, but then you have to change your intent, or the help will not have been help at all. ( and in the end, maybe even a developmental setback)

 

But also, that help can be much needed when you cannot go through your core-issue on your own.

Teacher did help with that, and I am grateful, of which he does not want to hear. He says, you did the work yourself, for many many weeks i saw you struggle with it. Then I only gave a tiny nudge to push you over the edge.

[cold]

"other people/gods/entities/whatevers can assist in burning that inner layer away.

But the pitfall in that is the chance that you fall back in your old patterns ....when some else does the work, then when you do it yourself."

 

That has certainly been true in my experience.

[Jonesboy]

Just now, cold said:

"other people/gods/entities/whatevers can assist in burning that inner layer away.

But the pitfall in that is the chance that you fall back in your old patterns ....when some else does the work, then when you do it yourself."

 

That has certainly been true in my experience.

 

They can help make it easier and faster but in the end you still have to let go and do the work.

[C T]

I have never heard any of my teachers indicate they can 'cut the root' of anyone's karma. Not that such requests aren't made, and they may secretly perform some sort of interceding prayers and pujas etc, but they have never openly made such a declaration, and i dont think they have ever encouraged the idea that its something to be sought out either. 

 

When discussing similar topics, they have expressed the opinion that practitioners will do well to understand that even Buddha himself did not (or chosed not to) 'escape' the traces of karma accrued from other lifetimes. I remember reading a sutra where this was highlighted but cannot remember now exactly which sutra it was. 

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, cold said:

"other people/gods/entities/whatevers can assist in burning that inner layer away.

But the pitfall in that is the chance that you fall back in your old patterns ....when some else does the work, then when you do it yourself."

 

That has certainly been true in my experience.

 

If it comes back, then it was never really burned away. Sounds more like spiritual bypassing or possibly “drafting” off the space (or energy) of a guru/master. 

 

Clarity is clarity (or not  ). 

[3bob]

another aspect is a master showing you your karma/mind from a spiritual pov. instead of one remaining entangled in the karma/mind, thus a suspension like action and breather is given from the karma so one can get insight,  and if such a suspension is deep and powerful enough and insight gained then the back of the karmic pattern can be broken although it still needs personal work.

[C T]

One thing i have noticed is that not everyone have the same level of determination in wanting to fully accept that its their conditioning that keeps them trapped within a certain response range. Some say they want (have the intention) to eradicate negative patterns, but their tendency to remain 'grasping' at old habits contradicts their expressed wishes. So there is conflict. Unless such conflicts are addressed correctly by said conflicted individual, in my view its not possible for any intermediary action whereby such a conflict can be effectively pacified. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by C T

[Apech]

By inner layer or intent I was thinking of redirecting (?) ming or jati - in other words your fate or destiny in some way.  By analogy you are facing North - then you meet a teacher and somehow you are now facing South - you still have all the work to do but now you are the right direction.  What do you think of this idea???

[Jeff]

12 minutes ago, C T said:

I have never heard any of my teachers indicate they can 'cut the root' of anyone's karma. Not that such requests aren't made, and they may secretly perform some sort of interceding prayers and pujas etc, but they have never openly made such a declaration, and i dont think they have ever encouraged the idea that its something to be sought out either. 

 

When discussing similar topics, they have expressed the opinion that practitioners will do well to understand that even Buddha himself did not (or chosed not to) 'escape' the traces of karma accrued from other lifetimes. I remember reading a sutra where this was highlighted but cannot remember now exactly which sutra it was. 

 

Which would make sense as I said in the other thread. With your framework I would agree that such a thing would not be possible. But, what I am describing is really just a more advanced version of Apech’s post on “transferring merit” that some Buddhist groups do. If you are interested, I would be happy to explain how it all works.

[blue eyed snake]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

By inner layer or intent I was thinking of redirecting (?) ming or jati - in other words your fate or destiny in some way.  By analogy you are facing North - then you meet a teacher and somehow you are now facing South - you still have all the work to do but now you are the right direction.  What do you think of this idea???

 

I'll sleep on that tonight

[Jeff]

12 minutes ago, 3bob said:

another aspect is a master showing you your karma/mind from a spiritual pov. instead of one remaining entangled in the karma/mind, thus a suspension like action and breather is given from the karma so one can get insight,  and if such a suspension is deep and powerful enough and insight gained then the back of the karmic pattern can be broken although it still needs personal work.

 

Very well said. Just combine that with Apech’s Buddhist merit transfer concept and you pretty much have it... accelerated Karma removal...  

[Apech]

1 minute ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

I'll sleep on that tonight

 

 

Sleep with your head to the North

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, Apech said:

By inner layer or intent I was thinking of redirecting (?) ming or jati - in other words your fate or destiny in some way.  By analogy you are facing North - then you meet a teacher and somehow you are now facing South - you still all the work to do but now you are the right direction.  What do you think of this idea???

 

To me this is basically saying the same thing as what 3bob said. A master can provide some “extra space” to redirect the battleship...

[cold]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

By inner layer or intent I was thinking of redirecting (?) ming or jati - in other words your fate or destiny in some way.  By analogy you are facing North - then you meet a teacher and somehow you are now facing South - you still all the work to do but now you are the right direction.  What do you think of this idea???

 

I think it has merit.

Change does not happen without chaos (and of course misery loves company).

Everyone is likely to get lost / distracted  along the way.

More or less...

 

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

 

Sleep with your head to the North

 

And please if you wake up with your head to the East, West or South let us know!

[ChiForce]

10 minutes ago, Apech said:

By inner layer or intent I was thinking of redirecting (?) ming or jati - in other words your fate or destiny in some way.  By analogy you are facing North - then you meet a teacher and somehow you are now facing South - you still have all the work to do but now you are the right direction.  What do you think of this idea???

In your state of deluded mind, you would still think you are facing North...LOL LOL... 

[s1va]

There was a group of practitioners in ancient India called Purva Mimamsakas.  They believed only in the early portion of Vedas.  Per their philosophy and belief, everything happens by karma.  Even the divine or 'Isvara' (God) cannot interfere in a person's karma.  Therefore there is no point in praying for divine help or intervention.  By karmas each person can find their own way and liberation in the end.  This is not the mainstream belief.  Shankara engages in debates with them and convinces (win) them, stating Iswara/Divine can intercede and help burn karmas.  The debate that occurred for several days is documented.  If divine can intercede and burn karmas for others, then it can do it by various means, including through other humans or masters.

 

When we come to Buddhism, there is no such concept of one 'Iswara' / divine who can intervene.  In fact, this was one of the major points of contention between Sankara and Buddhists.  So, from a Buddhist standpoint, may be, the karmas can't be burned by others.  I am not really sure, because there is a lot of overlap in the beliefs between the two traditions, when it comes to karmas.  

 

It is generally accepted in Hindu belief, that divine or a master can intervene with the karmas of others in various ways.  Let's not confuse this with responsibility or putting effort from the individual stand point.  Ultimately, every one is responsible for their karma and also for their liberation.  But, this does not mean, that the divine or 'Isvara' cannot intervene and help or burn some karma for those caught up in Samsara.  The divine can and does achieve this in so many ways, including by acting through another human. 

 

When it comes to Hindu Tantra also -- both right and left handed -- it is generally accepted that a qualified master can take or burn the karmas of others. 

 

Edited February 14, 2018 by s1va

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

 

Sleep with your head to the North

Not a good idea. Please don't give such advise.

[dwai]

There are three types of Karma

 

1. Sanchita (accrued) Karma - This is the bank account of Karmic effects 
2. Prarabdha (activated) Karma - This is what has already been set into motion in this lifetime
3. Agami or Kriyamaan Karma - This is stuff we will accrue with more action in future

Of the three, 1 and 3 can be negated by a Master or other Beings and/or by the individual through acquisition of knowledge. It is usually a combination of both. The "Master" or "Other Beings" are none other than the Self presenting itself and it's grace to the seeker (individual). 

2 is not possible to negate, even after Self-realization. It is likened to an arrow that has been fired and will stop when it runs out of momentum. The Self-realized person will however not suffer any longer due to this Karma as the karma is in the domain of the body-mind. The Self is eternally free.

Edited February 14, 2018 by dwai

[cold]

8 minutes ago, dwai said:

Not a good idea. Please don't give such advise.

 

Care to elaborate?

[s1va]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

There are three types of Karma

 

1. Sanchita (accrued) Karma - This is the bank account of Karmic effects 
2. Prarabdha (activated) Karma - This is what has already been set into motion in this lifetime
3. Agami or Kriyamaan Karma - This is stuff we will accrue with more action in future

Of the three, 1 and 3 can be negated by a Master or other Beings and/or by the individual through acquisition of knowledge. It is usually a combination of both. The "Master" or "Other Beings" are none other than the Self presenting itself and it's grace to the seeker (individual). 

2 is not possible to negate, even after Self-realization. It is likened to an arrow that has been fired and will stop when it runs out of momentum. However, 

 

Very good point.  This is something that got me thinking recently when I came across a text.  There seems to be some debate and two opinions on this -- whether the Prarabdha can also be affected or negated.   Per some parts of Vedanta and texts like Vivekachoodamani, it seems like this can be negated totally.  Others state, it can't.  Personally, I don't have a clear answer on this, sounds like it can under some circumstances.  I will close my comment with that, not sure if this will fall entirely under the topic.