One-finger skill

[Gerard]

Here’s the video:

 

 

It’s an old 70s video featuring a Shaolin monk. The thing is that the video doesn’t show the monk getting into the final position, so there must be a trick to it, otherwise the whole sequence would have been filmed whole.

 

Is he using some kind of metallic support concealed beneath his robe?

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Gerard said:

Is he using some kind of metallic support concealed beneath his robe?

No. With lifelong training it is doable. Pointless, but doable.

[joeblast]

either that or he had to be helped into the position, which he could then hold.

 

its like doing a lotus hand stand, the hardest part is getting yourself into the handstand

 

I couldnt resist posting the johnny cash 1 finger skill

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by joeblast

[silent thunder]

Iron Finger. 

I've seen that done, but in the training wheels mode, when you are still rapping the finger in a small gauge rope prior to standing on it.  He got into position with two hands, then withdrew the off hand once he found the position and got the qi flowing I guess.  Back then I hadn't even heard the word qi and kund fu was just for kicking ass.  Such a kid I was!

 

Asked what it was for and the guy gestured as if he would poke his finger behind my wind pipe and hook it... or poke between my ribs, for whatever reason you may want to do that...  His other hand was Iron Fist.  He'd punch a steel plate 1000 times every day... his first two knuckles on the other hand looked like they had cauliflower growing under the skin from all the bone callousing.

 

Very intense stuff... again... why one would want that.... no idea.

 

 

[thelerner]

I believe it.  Amazing skill, dedication, mind body control.  At a price, like many old karate men, they form such thick calluses and fused bones that there hands are semi-deformed. 

[silent thunder]

Yea, some martial practices come with a severe sacrifice.

[liminal_luke]

It might not be as pointless as it looks.  Practitioners of SunDo, a system of Taoist spiritual development, do lots of work on their fingertips.  From the very beginning everyone does fingertip pushups and advanced students do fingertip handstands.  (As far as I know, it`s always with all the fingertips together and never just one finger.)  I think there`s something to it.  Several meridians begin (or end? not sure) in the fingers.  And don`t the fingers have a special relationship with the elements generally?  Think of the importance of mudra: there`s so much meaning encoded in finger position.  I believe the stress of doing exercises on extended fingertips can activate qi in a way that`s beneficial in certain contexts.

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Gerard said:

Here’s the video:

 

 

It’s an old 70s video featuring a Shaolin monk. The thing is that the video doesn’t show the monk getting into the final position, so there must be a trick to it, otherwise the whole sequence would have been filmed whole.

 

Is he using some kind of metallic support concealed beneath his robe?

 

 

 

 

Ohhh .. you noticed that eh ?       

 

But for some such 'mere details' do not matter .

 

'Metallic support' may not be the only way of doing it       ;

 

 

 

[thelerner]

While generally skeptic, I believe this video.  Though I understand why it's easy to scoff at, especially since its a 90 year old man doing it.  Yet with decades of hard practice, and incredible extension(qi) its within the human realm. 

 

My art is Aikido, and there are videos of Morihei Ueshiba doing amazing things as an old man.  For example holding a sword out and having multiple people press against it sideways and it being immovable.  Terry Dobson, a Westerner wrote he applied his full strength suddenly and didn't move an inch.  This was filmed. 

 

In my view these acts are possible and take mind body coordination into the spiritual.  Note they are not supernatural, the man is light, his ligaments and bones trained, his extension perfect.  For all I know he had help getting into the position or was less then graceful, thus not shown, but I believe he did the one finger stand. 

 

However, doing some research we have the monks name.  We can research him, see longer, more indepth videos of the man. 

 

 

Here the full longer video-

 

Note there is a younger monk doing the same action at 10:45ish.  You can see the set up. 

 

In this video you see demonstration of a two finger or rather 4 handstand with great control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LkhVeW7VV0

 

Shaolin is not without it critics.  Particularly its modern, showman style.  I've read exposes on serious MMA fighters who've visited its temple and found a mixed bag.  So, here's a video of a Western gymnast/yoga type doing amazing handstand work (not one finger though)

 heck, here's someone doing a one finger pushup in an old America's got talent-

Really the outer limits of strength and control are wild-

 

Edited February 17, 2018 by thelerner

[Gerard]

21 hours ago, thelerner said:

Yet with decades of hard practice, and incredible extension(qi) its within the human realm.

 

Following that logic, what would have prevented the monk from attaining “levitation” in the first place? This raises eyebrows especially when one takes a close look at his finger: it isn’t bending even a ‘nanometer’ so to speak.

 

https://www.yogaofsrichinmoy.com/the-higher-worlds/miracles/levitation-miracle/

 

 

 

[Spotless]

My teacher

Edited February 18, 2018 by Spotless

[thelerner]

14 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

Following that logic, what would have prevented the monk from attaining “levitation” in the first place? This raises eyebrows especially when one takes a close look at his finger: it isn’t bending even a ‘nanometer’ so to speak.

 

https://www.yogaofsrichinmoy.com/the-higher-worlds/miracles/levitation-miracle/

 

 

 

levitation goes against physics, ie using some unknown undetectable dimension energy kinda thing.  This is a handstand.. kids do it.. course its taken to the nth degree, but with a combination of extension and strength its possible.  In truth I think the elite (thin) gymnast could train themselves to do a 2 finger handstand.  This is just 1 finger less.  

 

This monk could be in the 80 to 95 pound range, and his feet are leaning against the wall.  In truth, this is amazing, but not in my opinion superhuman or supernatural (human levitation would be one or the other..or bogus).   We have clear records of people doing 2 finger handstands without a wall.  Heck, I'm showing a 2014 video of a guy on America's Got Talent doing a 1 finger handstand.  This is remarkable but then the entire Guinness Book of World Records is full of 1,000's of remarkable crazy records.  

Edited February 18, 2018 by thelerner

[thelerner]

17 hours ago, Zhongli said:

I've trained One Finger Zen, in my school. Just forming the one finger zen hand form gives a strong one pointed state of mind.

The hand form is different though then this monk his form.

The video featured here, real or not, not sure There is always tricks and what not sometimes, even using established forms.

It's impressive regardless though, for his age.

Just seeing him do the splits at 90 is damn impressive. 

If top guys from your school wanted to do a 1 finger handstand (against a wall), do you think they could train themselves for it?  

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, thelerner said:

levitation goes against physics, ..

 

 

So does this :    "  For example holding a sword out and having multiple people press against it sideways and it being immovable.  Terry Dobson, a Westerner wrote he applied his full strength suddenly and didn't move an inch. "

 

yet, you believe that  ^   .

[thelerner]

28 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

So does this :    "  For example holding a sword out and having multiple people press against it sideways and it being immovable.  Terry Dobson, a Westerner wrote he applied his full strength suddenly and didn't move an inch. "

 

yet, you believe that  ^   .

Nungali, I was trying to get through that it's not a mysterious power.  Least not in my opinion.  Not like levitation would be. 

 

Numbers of reasons why I believe.  Its on film, I read Dobson's account as well as descriptions by several Japanese who interestingly were less impressed by it then Dobson was.  Unlike levitation imo it's not a mysterious power, its the extreme of mind/body coordination, showing off the power of amazing extension.   It wasn't a one off kind of thing, he'd demonstrated at least a couple times.  O'Sensei taught for decades and had generations of students. 

 

There are many films of him doing similar feats of withstanding huge force.  He'd usually explain his legendary fudoshin (immovabilty) as being done because the gods had entered his body.   One of his top students and founder of my style of Aikido,  Koichi Tohei had a much more down to earth explanation and would simplify it into following 4 principles, 2 of mind, 2 of body.    That and practice..

 

My Aikido sensei could hold a sword out against 2 people and explained how it was done.. ie the power of focused relaxed extension.. taken to it an extreme.   He readily admitted he couldn't do 4 or 5 like Ueshiba did.  Importantly, it's not supernatural, just remarkable training and insight expressed physically.   Every weekend we'd have a Ki Class and play with these kinds of ki tricks.  See how they'd apply to walking, sitting.. striking.. over all balance.  

 

My sensei had another cool trick.  He could pick up short staff, hold it in the middle by one finger.  Have two people grab the ends and together try to push the jo and him backwards.  He stand there holding it with a finger, and smile.   They couldn't do it, and if one pushed to hard, the other pusher would end up being forced back.   Cool trick.  How'd he do it, 30..40 years of practice in mind/body coordination.   I expect if I had his dedication and put in the same amount of decades I could learn it, but like the one finger handstand.. it's a lotta effort for a 'trick'.  Yet to do such, shows an amazing level of mastery. 

 

The horizontal sword 'trick' is one I never picked up, but I could do the old sitting while 8 or 9 people pushed against me in a line.  And it wasn't all that hard.   The secret is, two people pushing are harder then one, 3 might be harder then 2, but beyond 3 it didn't matter.  They would interfere with each other.  If you took up slack a certain way you could negate the push of the first person and then he's squashed and it was real easy.  That is probably the biggest secret subtly negating the power immediately.  I was never anywhere close to my instructor's ability. 

 

It's the kind of thing worked on over the years, and has some lessons in it, but not due to a mysterious power.  Rather its part physics but to do, required relaxed extension.  For me, the use of metaphor greatly increases the ability to create that relaxed extension.  So.. the imagery of water (or qi) shooting powerfully out of your arm gave you access to that relaxed strength.

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

I get all that as I did aikido for many years .    

 

Also I am aware of Ueshibas 'demos' and the films -   make of it what you will folks ;

 

 

 

 For detailed explanations I  recommend the  extensive writings of Peter Goldsworthy  on Aikiweb   - Peter is a scholar and somewhat of an expert on 'certain dynamics' of Japanese culture that made such Japanese martial arts, what they are today , including concepts of respect, tataeme and honne,  'teacher emulation' , transmission, developments,   etc .

 

 Many Aikido tricks are based on physical principles  ...  and some just seem 'politeness for teacher'  or 'demonstrations' .

 

Here  is another 'unliftable body' technique with   'Master little kid (and sister )'   ;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thelerner]

Personally I don't think that video of Ueshiba near the end of his life when he's in mystic grandmaster mode is a good example.  Likewise showing the video of 5 year old girl as proof of Ueshiba being a fraud or against the OP video doesn't really mean much to me.   There are a dozen of other videos of Ueshiba, still an old man doing remarkable things.. some having him demonstrate on American  MP's and others showing much more vigorous attacks and his uncanny ability. 

 

If you're willing to look or if you want to start a separate thread on Ueshiba that'd be fine too.   If you read, you can read first hand accounts.     

 

But do you think that the one finger hand stand is impossible?   That it's akin to a person levitating?  I don't.  I think the right people, extraordinary to be sure, with the right training could do it.  That gymnastic strong can achieve it, and that a spiritual (yoga/Shaolin..) strong men too.  

 

I think the video of the monk is legit.  Not selling anything, but an amazing example of an old man repeating a phenomenal mind/body routine from his youth.  I wouldn't be surprised if the middle set up wasn't show because he had help getting into position, but that the end result, him balancing, feet against a wall on one finger was (probably) legit. 

 

For example in the middle video (America's got talent) I showed above with Christian Stoinev, at around 2:03 he does a one finger hand stand with no wall, total balance.  Note his finger is in a thimblish indentation.  Still he's balancing.  Look at the strength of the people in the other videos.  They're doing dozens of times, what we couldn't do once. 

 

Still, Christian is not 90 years old.  Could an old man do it?   Not anyone.  I know the Mighty Atom was ripping horse shoes (not bending, ripping) apart in his late 70's in front of large audiences.  He called upon spiritual strength but it was a skill he learned when younger.  

 

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2018 by thelerner

[thelerner]

Okay, now I'm dragging this on :(, but here's another video, ignore the first few minutes, but its got a good history of monk and Abott Hai Teng.   A fascinating albeit slightly propagandist (cause communist China) biography of the man.  It's all fascinating, but you can see him in action around 23:40 & 44:10.  Again are these real fights?  No.. course not, he's being treated with respect, he's a man is in his 80's or 90's, yet he's damn good.  You can see him teaching Shaolin arts throughout.  This video is well worth watching.  Also watch for the other older masters performing for each other around 38:12 and throughout the video, very very inspiring.

 

An amazing thing I found in yoga ashram's was woman do incredible poses that I assumed required incredible strength, like the scorpion variations and yet it wasn't about strength.. well some yet there are other equally important factors that allowed woman to stay in vertical poses I couldn't even attempt. 

 

Again, I could show more videos of woman flowing through incredible strength postures but you might not get it.  Think they're fake.  What I'm getting at is that balance and extension are the equal to strength in the handstand.

 

What I'm trying to get through is that this is not due to supernatural.  If Abbott Hai Teng of Shaolin is doing it at 90, its not because he's supernatural or super strong.   It's that he's kept himself in amazing shape, as per seeing him do the splits, and that what's he doing is an extreme example of mind/body coordination, balance and extension. 

 

He's also probably deformed his finger due to his one finger sword technique.  Again the man in motion-

 

The more I learn the man the more I respect.  There are extraordinary people in this world.  Not supernatural, but just frickin amazing and inspiring.   Giving us something to aim at. 

 

Edited February 19, 2018 by thelerner

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, thelerner said:

Personally I don't think that video of Ueshiba near the end of his life when he's in mystic grandmaster mode is a good example. 

 

It was a perfect example of what I was talking about, why these things  happen the way they do and the processes Peter Goldsworthy explains, which is why I included it .

 

 

18 hours ago, thelerner said:

 

Likewise showing the video of 5 year old girl as proof of Ueshiba being a fraud or against the OP video doesn't really mean much to me.  

 

Except it wasnt posted as 'proof of Ueshiba being a fraud'  .... I didnt claim he was a fraud, actually.

 

 

 

18 hours ago, thelerner said:

There are a dozen of other videos of Ueshiba, still an old man doing remarkable things.. some having him demonstrate on American  MP's and others showing much more vigorous attacks and his uncanny ability. 

 

If you're willing to look or if you want to start a separate thread on Ueshiba that'd be fine too.   If you read, you can read first hand accounts.     

 

When I say I studied Aikido for years, I mean I trained with many accomplish people and teachers, attended workshops and seminars, studied the history and development of it and the cultural context and historical periods of its development. Also some spiritual side of it ( and I dont mean the modern BS 'aikido is love' ... I am talking about weird  spirits demons and spells , Ueshibas practice of  sword fighting with a demonic form of himself .  His archaic manner (many students could not understand his ancient Japanese )  etc .

 

  .... in other words, I have read 'first hand accounts' .     ....  and  yes ,  I do read  ...    

 

 

[dawei]

On 2/16/2018 at 5:48 AM, Taoist Texts said:

No. With lifelong training it is doable. Pointless, but doable.

 

I first saw this a long time ago...

 

My feeling... his pointed fingers suggest some sort of abnormality in birth or practice.  Whether he was assisted in the upright position or not is meaningless... just whether he can hold it.

 

Pointless, except to shaolin, but doable. 

 

[Pavel Karavaev]

It should be noted that modern performers look much more interesting in using their body's abilities.
It seems so to me.