Working with Attachments

[s1va]

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

perhaps, seen how those attachments will lead to suffering.

 

Agree,  this part is very helpful. It  is also vital to observe this process in ourselves.  Only by noticing our own attachments and see how they lead to misery, we slowly untangle them.

[silent thunder]

For me, rather than working with... or trying to... or attempting to, or forcing...

 

it's now unfolding in and releasing into...

[Jonesboy]

4 hours ago, silent thunder said:

For me, rather than working with... or trying to... or attempting to, or forcing...

 

it's now unfolding in and releasing into...

 

Wouldn’t a releasing into be a form of working with?

[C T]

31 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Wouldn’t a releasing into be a form of working with?

 

Perhaps a key but subtle difference would be the degree of manipulation involved in each? 

A craftsperson works with a base object, say a block of wood for example, to create a form, whereas an artisan releases his or her creativity into the base object, in the process allowing a natural & intrinsic beauty to free itself out of the block? Idk, sounds very romantic, but may be true somehow. 

[ChiForce]

34 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Wouldn’t a releasing into be a form of working with?

Working with....is assuming you are adding an ego into the entire attachment/karma dynamic.  Making the attachment more stickier.  That's the opposite of wei wu wei.  Letting them go.  Stop thought arising condition unfolding in your mind.  Then, the attachment and karma won't cause you to act on it.  

 

Weu wu wei is even more important dealing with past life karma/attachment.  Dependent condition arising predating your birth.  How do you even "work" with that???       

[Boundlesscostfairy]

Well I have a few responses..

 

I wrote down Edison because that's the first thing I thought of.. I was not specifically comparing him to other scientists.. But being in Menlo I also heard about his hours and days of work.. and opting for micro rests...etc

 

Attachment can all of a sudden come from anywhere..

 

I have a better question.. What are you attached to..

 

Me personally.. is being reputable on this forum.. just making clear sense and clarity and cogency to my posts.

[Mig]

On 2/17/2018 at 2:10 PM, dwai said:

Anything you can’t let go of is an attachment. 

 

Isn't that a reason why we are here since we are born. attach to living and not dying?

[Jonesboy]

1 hour ago, C T said:

 

Perhaps a key but subtle difference would be the degree of manipulation involved in each? 

A craftsperson works with a base object, say a block of wood for example, to create a form, whereas an artisan releases his or her creativity into the base object, in the process allowing a natural & intrinsic beauty to free itself out of the block? Idk, sounds very romantic, but may be true somehow. 

 

Still the the same thing.

 

Still clrearing the dirt from the mirror.

[Jonesboy]

1 hour ago, ChiForce said:

Working with....is assuming you are adding an ego into the entire attachment/karma dynamic.  Making the attachment more stickier.  That's the opposite of wei wu wei.  Letting them go.  Stop thought arising condition unfolding in your mind.  Then, the attachment and karma won't cause you to act on it.  

 

Weu wu wei is even more important dealing with past life karma/attachment.  Dependent condition arising predating your birth.  How do you even "work" with that???       

 

That is projection.

 

weu wu wei is the same concept 

 

Read the first post to learn how

[ChiForce]

15 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

That is projection.

 

weu wu wei is the same concept 

 

Read the first post to learn how

No.......wei wu wei has no I.  No ego.  The mind quietly observing events which are seemingly relating to your attachment.  Yet, no dependent thought condition arising in your mind.  You went on your way as it is.  The example is like getting yourself in a car accident and your mind is about to witness yourself in an accident. Instead of desperately trying to avert the accident by doing sudden, erratic things with your car, you just allow your instinct, wei wu wei, to take over.  You survive the incident unharmed. 

 

Yes...I escaped death while a SUV was about to run me over while I was cycling in my neighborhood....  I had 4s to react.  Not much else to do when someone was about to kill you with their truck.  Somehow, not only I survived and didn't hit the truck, I did something that I couldn't believe I could do.  Slow motion power sliding in order to change the force vector my bike and I was heading..to the side of the truck.  Not only that....my feet didn't even touch the ground throughout the entire incident.  It was something.  Things can happen when you are no longer even attaching yourself to life....

 

Don't dismiss concept you have no knowledge and experience off.  It isn't making you any more sense.  Oh...when the ego gets involved in your attachment, it will always try to fix things.  To make things worst.....  At best, the mind would even try to deny it is obsessed in attaching to things....  Is called denial.... 

 

   

Edited February 19, 2018 by ChiForce

[dwai]

40 minutes ago, Mig said:

 

Isn't that a reason why we are here since we are born. attach to living and not dying?

Did you have a choice in being born? Do we have a choice in whether we’re going to die? We are living because we were born and will do so until we die. Where is the need for attachment? 

[Jonesboy]

8 minutes ago, ChiForce said:

No.......wei wu wei has no I.  No ego.  The mind quietly observing events which are seemingly relating to your attachment.  Yet, no dependent thought condition arising in your mind.  You went on your way as it is.  The example is like getting yourself in a car accident and your mind is about to witness yourself in an accident. Instead of desperately trying to avert the accident by doing sudden, erratic things with your car, you just allow your instinct, wei wu wei, to take over.  You survive the incident unharmed. 

 

Yes...I escaped death while a SUV was about to run me over while I was cycling in my neighborhood....  I had 4s to react.  Not much else to do when someone was about to kill you with their truck.  Somehow, not only I survived and didn't hit the truck, I did something that I couldn't believe I could do.  Slow motion power sliding in order to change the force vector my bike and I was heading..to the side of the truck.  Not only that....my feet didn't even touch the ground throughout the entire incident.  It was something.  Things can happen when you are no longer even attaching yourself to life....

 

Don't dismiss concept you have no knowledge and experience off.  It isn't making you any more sense.  Oh...when the ego gets involved in your attachment, it will always try to fix things.  To make things worst.....  At best, the mind would even try to deny it is obsessed in attaching to things....  Is called denial.... 

 

   

 

I really don’t see how putting your awareness on the feeling\energy of an upset is ego. I have found it to be a powerful method of being present. Let me share my first real success 

 

I learned this technique while I was going through The Presence Process which the OP is a nice short write up of the technique. At the same time I was reading up on Insight Dialogue. One of the techniques from ID that I added was  putting my awareness in my body.

 

It became really fun because every conversation, every interaction became an opportunity for me to notice how I would react, how I would feel. One funny thing that I noticed was that I would puff up my chest no matter who I talked to. It was just something I had never noticed about myself.

 

Back on topic, I was at Jack N the Box going through the drive through. My AC wasn’t working in the 110 degree heat and I was waiting for my big order of food. I finally got my order pulled forward, checked my order and noticed it was all messed up.

 

I was pissed.

 

I pulled around the building, parked and angrily went inside to a line of people. At that moment I remembered to put my awareness in my body and feel as I looked at the workers. As I did I felt this full body wave of ecstatic energy flow through every each of my body. Instead of anger, I was able to notice how hard everyone was working, how they were looking at me nervously. I knew, I knew it was all okay. That there was nothing to be upset about.

 

Everything was good just as it is.

 

If your method is mindfulness, then try being mindful of how you feel within your body. How that energy feels that is you.

[ChiForce]

20 minutes ago, dwai said:

Did you have a choice in being born? Do we have a choice in whether we’re going to die? We are living because we were born and will do so until we die. Where is the need for attachment? 

I think the attachment is long predating your birth...when your previous karma was already dictating your next rebirth.....You are born because...your mind didn't become liberated during your previous life.  Is funny that people think they have power and choice in what or who or how they become attached to.  In reality...not really.  That's largely what attachment is....becoming obsessed in connecting oneself to a thing, a person, a place. a thought, and food....

[Fa Xin]

Another method I want to share...

 

Giving it away.

 

This is where a connection with a deity can be beneficial.  Giving it up, letting them take the load of it.

 

If your afraid to give it away, as Alan Watts put it - the process of nature is the helper.  Rust, decay, everything crumbles and falls away.  There's no point in holding onto any of it, as there's nothing to hold onto. It's achieved for you. One day you'll die and not leave a thing behind.  Meditation on this point helps to loosen things up a bit.

 

 

[silent thunder]

4 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Wouldn’t a releasing into be a form of working with?

Work, to me, conveys a sense of 'trying', or effort, where release is opening, flow, unfolding and effortless.

 

[Spotless]

A subtle way in which we mask our attachments is with filler.

 

Filller, clutter - it is what we do while not listening.

 

Willfulness carries us past Now with clutter and filler - we do not experience openness and silence and the expanse of Oneness - we maintain our "separate" story and our favorite selves.

 

Notice in a conversation - when the other mouth is speaking - are you experiencing silence and openness - or is the experience filled with your story - your inertias - your filler and judgements and clutter - ?

 

One versed in actual openness and listening is versed in the Awakened state - this is a doorway - a certained "stopped" state:

Selfless - not in a Being Kind to another way - selfless as in unattached to inner banter, clutter, noise continuation, avoidance of ackwardness, insurance against not having something to further your causes and self image.

 

 

[Spotless]

Fixing 

 

 

Finding the root cause

 

The holy grail

 

The big banana's

 

Anything but silence - openness - non-doing

 

The ocean will not fail you - stop runnng from it in persuit of futures and pasts and other Nows.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2018 by Spotless

[Spotless]

You will never be less you in Presence

 

But noise will become brash and braggardly in stillness.

 

Choose not to participate in noise - and do not resist the noise you judge to be so from what you perceive to be "other(s)"

 

We are attached to the sounds of our noise - we are fond of it, habituated to it - we wish to expand its territory - a sexual pecking order - pushing.

 

The virility in Presence in peace and gratitude and Being unseparated from the golden light of Divine Natural Essence - this is Un-attached free potential - there is no craving - the illusion of alone-ness has dissolved in the aloneness of Oneness.

[s1va]

13 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

Well I have a few responses..

 

I wrote down Edison because that's the first thing I thought of.. I was not specifically comparing him to other scientists.. But being in Menlo I also heard about his hours and days of work.. and opting for micro rests...etc

 

Attachment can all of a sudden come from anywhere..

 

I have a better question.. What are you attached to..

 

Me personally.. is being reputable on this forum.. just making clear sense and clarity and cogency to my posts.

 

I understood that my friend.  That example is something that just came up to you.  I wouldn't worry too much about it.  Nice to know about your wish to be clear and cogent in your posts.  Most of us have such goals in life.  My best wishes and good luck!

 

Just a tip, if your post was in response to someone's message, it might help to quote that person in your reply and address the question you want to ask.  Unless, you wanted it as a general question to everyone in the forum.   You may know this already, just pointed out, because it could help in a discussion.

[s1va]

10 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Work, to me, conveys a sense of 'trying', or effort, where release is opening, flow, unfolding and effortless.

 

 

I get what you are trying to convey.  However, I wouldn't discourage work and putting forth effort.  The essence of karma yoga is to engage in activities or put forth effort, but without the identification, 'I am doing it' and without the expectation of results.  It is not the work, trying or putting forth effort that may be the issue, but it is our attachment to the action with the identification as 'I' and 'mine' that seem to result in issues.  All of us have to put forth effort, physically and mentally every day in order to carry out different activities.    Anyway, it's a different take that makes sense to me.  Cheers.

[dwai]

12 hours ago, ChiForce said:

I think the attachment is long predating your birth...when your previous karma was already dictating your next rebirth.....You are born because...your mind didn't become liberated during your previous life.  Is funny that people think they have power and choice in what or who or how they become attached to.  In reality...not really.  That's largely what attachment is....becoming obsessed in connecting oneself to a thing, a person, a place. a thought, and food....

 if that’s the case then one doesn’t have the choice to become “unattached” as well. Which we know is possible (to become unattached). 

 

Attachment is a choice, always. But it is rooted in ignorance of one’s true nature. Did you have an attachment to anything when you were a baby? Not even to your mother. You were empty and free really. Attachment comes with the mind. As we grow up. 

[silent thunder]

43 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

I get what you are trying to convey.  However, I wouldn't discourage work and putting forth effort.  The essence of karma yoga is to engage in activities or put forth effort, but without the identification, 'I am doing it' and without the expectation of results.  It is not the work, trying or putting forth effort that may be the issue, but it is our attachment to the action with the identification as 'I' and 'mine' that seem to result in issues.  All of us have to put forth effort, physically and mentally every day in order to carry out different activities.    Anyway, it's a different take that makes sense to me.  Cheers.

Well said Mate.  I agree.  The shift I'm conveying when I talk about release and unfolding, doesn't mean to discourage natural effort, but stems from many years of effort and striving... that left me exhausted and in my exhaustion, I realized, much of the energy I was expelling in my effort, was lost in the tension of trying, rather than being translated fully in the process through the presence of being the action, not trying.

 

So I don't mean at all, to discourage natural effort and work, just the added levels of tension of unnecessary 'forcing'. 

 

Releasing into being the entire process.  I'm including my last response to the 'effort and power' thread as it seems to speak to this process for me as well. 

 

Trying, lately seems counter-productive,  an unnecessary added level of tension and resistance in a process that is not conducive, no longer helpful in the flow of being.  It seems to impede the force that naturally flows through my mind/body.  A good friend once said "don't try to do something, just do it, be it... TRY simply stands for To Resist Yourself.  Don't try to not spill the coffee as you cross the room... this adds a level of complexity to the process of being that is unnecessary and impedes the natural flow of energy to be the process, instead of 'do' it.

 

Kids enter samadhi, naturally, routinely in their play.  They do not 'try' to play, they dissolve into being the play.  This applies to my relationship to power and force.  Full being in presence, without the addition of 'trying', allows greater transmission of force and power through the system that I refer to as my self engaging in a process. 

 

When I am 'trying' it seems that part of the force generated, or that is always flowing through my process, is transfered into tension, which is actually impeding flow of being and reducing the power moving through the flow.  The tension of trying, creates a layer of resistance to the flow of energy through my body/mind, which reduces the effect of force on my actions.

 

Lately, instead of 'striving' or 'effort', it's rather amazing.  I go the other way, release into an unfolding, a very neutral non-attached 'being' and presence, rather than layering on another level of intent of mind and body tension with 'trying' to do things

 

Instead of 'doing things' I am simply being it.

 

Instead of approaching 'a task' which is separate from me, as something my body/mind will accomplish with intent forced focus... there is an unfolding and release into being all of it, me, mind/body and the process engaged in... all as one.

 

A space of being whereby once the intent to 'do something' manifests... mind becomes quiet yet still present for response to needed stimuli and changing conditions, without the layer of 'trying'.  This supports an internal space that cultivates full presence in being whereby my entire process becomes the process I'm engaging in.... and power flows unimpeded, effortless.

 

[Jonesboy]

Very cool.

 

First it was a doing, required effort. Then it became an all the time thing, a being.

 

I am saying the same thing but for those who don’t know how to start or think it is only a sitting thing. This is a powerful means of helping one when caught up and getting to being without the mind stories. Just another means is all.

[silent thunder]

Yea. Like the concept of:

First there's a mountain, then there's no mountain, then there's a mountain again.

 

seems to relate to this, much in the manner of this phrase I have really come to embody.

 

The Sage, while being 'in' the world, is not 'of' it. 

[Boundlesscostfairy]

10 hours ago, dwai said:

 if that’s the case then one doesn’t have the choice to become “unattached” as well. Which we know is possible (to become unattached). 

 

Attachment is a choice, always. But it is rooted in ignorance of one’s true nature. Did you have an attachment to anything when you were a baby? Not even to your mother. You were empty and free really. Attachment comes with the mind. As we grow up. 

So would you say the meaning of emptiness is just complete non attachment?