[DDJ Meaning] Chapter 29

[timpani]

On 2/21/2018 at 5:54 AM, dawei said:

Flowing Hands
29
Do you think you can take over the Universe and then improve it?
It can never be done.
The Universe is sacred, it can never be improved.
If you try to change it, you will ruin it.
If you try to possess it, you will only lose it.
In the Ten Thousand Things, as well as man,
one never feels quite the same everyday.
So, sometimes things are ahead and sometimes behind.
Sometimes breathing becomes difficult, sometimes it is easy.
Sometimes there is strength and sometimes there is weakness.
Sometimes one feels up and cheerful, but sometimes one feels down.
This is natural; for we are all subject to the Heavenly bodies that influence our lives.
The Sage experiences these as well as ordinary men, for he is one of the Ten Thousand
Things.

 

I really like this chapter.  

 

“Do you think you can take over the Universe and then improve it?
It can never be done.
The Universe is sacred, it can never be improved.
If you try to change it, you will ruin it.”

 

I think this is talking about super powers - like controlling the weather or stopping busses with your mind or stopping your body from aging.  I think the desire to control comes from a lack of seeing and appreciating things as they are.  Harboring dissatisfaction, we lose the way.  Better to get an umbrella,  look both ways before crossing the street, and appreciate the gray hairs and arthritis.

 

“In the Ten Thousand Things, as well as man,
one never feels quite the same everyday.
So, sometimes things are ahead and sometimes behind.
Sometimes breathing becomes difficult, sometimes it is easy.
Sometimes there is strength and sometimes there is weakness.
Sometimes one feels up and cheerful, but sometimes one feels down.
This is natural; for we are all subject to the Heavenly bodies that influence our lives.
The Sage experiences these as well as ordinary men, for he is one of the Ten Thousand
Things.”

 

 

I really like this too.  To me, Laozi is saying it’s natural for a person to feel good an uplifted when the winter sun shines on her face and to feel subdued when it’s been overcast for a month.   He sees mood and physical feeling as natural phenomona related to day/night cycles, hormonal cycles, seasonal cycles, celestial cycles - things to accept as they are without dissatisfaction or the desire to control. 
 

[Symph]

This is the kind of verse that made me so fascinated in Taoism in the first place, because at the time I still hadn't truly broken away from my christian roots, but I was questioning, and to see this eastern philosophy, that is dated before Jesus, and he's talking about the spiritual kingdom, and how you can't hold onto it or improve or change it for yourself, I was just like "wait.. either something is not being translated correctly... or Jesus knew about these teachings..."  And that really began my journey into other religions like hinduism (which ALSO parallels the bible in more ways than one would think) etc.  

 

As far as my thoughts on this specific verse...  I mean my understanding of the kingdom is it is like... full conscious awareness and child like flow through the world.  That ineffable quality of experiencing the miracles in every moment, and flowing with them.  So to say you can't hold it is like saying that if you're TRYING to hold onto it, you don't have it, you have trying.  I mean, all of taoism that I've been able to comprehend has just been illustration after illustration trying to get one into a state of allowing, instead of a state of striving.  

 

I get the feeling though that my understanding is quite juvenile compared to the true depth of wisdom held within, or perhaps Taoism really does just keep drilling home the same main theme because it's actually THAT hard to "get".  But I just have to point out how interesting it is that Jesus talked about how we must learn to wait for God to do in us what we can't do for ourselves, and to not be so preoccupied with getting, as to miss out on God's giving.  If you change the idea of God into "The source" or "The way of things" you have the same concept.  "Stop trying to get from the universe and open up to all it is trying to give you".  

 

I don't know how triggering the mentioning of the bible is or not, but if you guys aren't too offended by it it is one of my favorite things to think about regarding taoism, how once one takes the church goggles off and compare the two teachings, there are remarkable similarities that in my opinion can't just be coincidence.   

[Sebastian]

You're right, it's similar Symph. It's like Tao is the river of life, and it is the substance that Jesus is made of. Jesus is like the ice sculpture, but it's still made of water, or Tao.

 

What makes Jesus special is he is a perfect expression of Tao, a perfect sculpture, because he knew how to live with The Way. But there are other Masters like him, although I know the Christian church claims exclusivity.

 

The way I view it, God is just a concept in people's minds. It is the highest divinity they can conceive of. But Tao is the unformed substance that animates people's conception of God. It the spiritual energy of this universe. But it is never worshiped because it is formless, colorless, odorless, silent, patient, subtle and non-confrontational. It is just like water, and you can box it into any shape you want, any God, any Guru, any spiritual perspective, and it will always fill that box or space for you. 

But people don't care about Tao, people like "heroes"... They like to make their heroes the only Son of God. They like things to be for sure, and they like to make a deal with Divinity to be certain of their afterlife. But these things only reflect the human mind trying to chase its tail.

 

So yes, I think you can study the life of Jesus to learn Tao. At least to get hints from it, and there is certainly spiritual value in the Bible. But you can also learn directly from DDJ which is a treasure left by another perfect creation of Tao. And you can also learn from any spiritual sage, who draws from the same well of inspiration as Jesus and Lao-Tsu. Don't view all your past Christian learning as a waste, if you learned it with the heart and saw past the veil of religion, then I think you got a head start on your Taoist studies

 

[Nintendao]

7 hours ago, Symph said:

I don't know how triggering the mentioning of the bible is or not, but if you guys aren't too offended by it it is one of my favorite things to think about regarding taoism, how once one takes the church goggles off and compare the two teachings, there are remarkable similarities that in my opinion can't just be coincidence.   

That's cool! You might like to check out the Nestorian Stele, a collaboration of Tang dynasty ministers and early Christians, pilgrims from Syria journeying the Silk Road. I feel like it preserves an essential aspect of the "Luminous Religion," without as many ulterior motives like of Roman Empire and King James.

 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/journals/oc/inm.htm

[Symph]

9 hours ago, Sebastian said:

You're right, it's similar Symph. It's like Tao is the river of life, and it is the substance that Jesus is made of. Jesus is like the ice sculpture, but it's still made of water, or Tao.

 

What makes Jesus special is he is a perfect expression of Tao, a perfect sculpture, because he knew how to live with The Way. But there are other Masters like him, although I know the Christian church claims exclusivity.

 

The way I view it, God is just a concept in people's minds. It is the highest divinity they can conceive of. But Tao is the unformed substance that animates people's conception of God. It the spiritual energy of this universe. But it is never worshiped because it is formless, colorless, odorless, silent, patient, subtle and non-confrontational. It is just like water, and you can box it into any shape you want, any God, any Guru, any spiritual perspective, and it will always fill that box or space for you. 

But people don't care about Tao, people like "heroes"... They like to make their heroes the only Son of God. They like things to be for sure, and they like to make a deal with Divinity to be certain of their afterlife. But these things only reflect the human mind trying to chase its tail.

 

So yes, I think you can study the life of Jesus to learn Tao. At least to get hints from it, and there is certainly spiritual value in the Bible. But you can also learn directly from DDJ which is a treasure left by another perfect creation of Tao. And you can also learn from any spiritual sage, who draws from the same well of inspiration as Jesus and Lao-Tsu. Don't view all your past Christian learning as a waste, if you learned it with the heart and saw past the veil of religion, then I think you got a head start on your Taoist studies

 

Man this really resonated with me.  I really do feel that there is a "God" we can commune with and talk to, however I don't think it's THE God who created everything, I think it is a collective of beings that are closest to the source energy from which we all came.  And you are right, Jesus is one of those beings, along with Krishna, Buddha, and many others.  I DO worship, I can't help it, but I do not believe it is because God wants worship from me, I believe it is because I want to give it to Him.  I really wanna expand further but I just got off work and I'm so hungry I can hardly think!!! HAHAHA Maybe after I eat I'll really get on here and try to have more cool conversations with you guys.  I haven't been too active cause I've been busy but from what I can tell you are all really cool people, and I'm glad no one was offended by me bringing up Jesus.  I really do want to get to a point where everything doesn't come back to Christianity with me, but it's kind of all I know, and I still see it as highly relevant, I just know that the "powers that be" hijacked it for their own controlling agenda.  

[Rara]

On 05/10/2019 at 2:48 PM, Symph said:

This is the kind of verse that made me so fascinated in Taoism in the first place, because at the time I still hadn't truly broken away from my christian roots, but I was questioning, and to see this eastern philosophy, that is dated before Jesus, and he's talking about the spiritual kingdom, and how you can't hold onto it or improve or change it for yourself, I was just like "wait.. either something is not being translated correctly... or Jesus knew about these teachings..."  And that really began my journey into other religions like hinduism (which ALSO parallels the bible in more ways than one would think) etc.  

 

As far as my thoughts on this specific verse...  I mean my understanding of the kingdom is it is like... full conscious awareness and child like flow through the world.  That ineffable quality of experiencing the miracles in every moment, and flowing with them.  So to say you can't hold it is like saying that if you're TRYING to hold onto it, you don't have it, you have trying.  I mean, all of taoism that I've been able to comprehend has just been illustration after illustration trying to get one into a state of allowing, instead of a state of striving.  

 

I get the feeling though that my understanding is quite juvenile compared to the true depth of wisdom held within, or perhaps Taoism really does just keep drilling home the same main theme because it's actually THAT hard to "get".  But I just have to point out how interesting it is that Jesus talked about how we must learn to wait for God to do in us what we can't do for ourselves, and to not be so preoccupied with getting, as to miss out on God's giving.  If you change the idea of God into "The source" or "The way of things" you have the same concept.  "Stop trying to get from the universe and open up to all it is trying to give you".  

 

I don't know how triggering the mentioning of the bible is or not, but if you guys aren't too offended by it it is one of my favorite things to think about regarding taoism, how once one takes the church goggles off and compare the two teachings, there are remarkable similarities that in my opinion can't just be coincidence.   

 

Not juvenile, but simplistic and pretty much on point

 

It is like watching me talk with my mother...sounds like I have the same roots as you. Personally, I think that whether it's Jesus, Mohammad, Buddha or any other prophet or teacher, they will have been preaching what was already known. But perhaps 2020 years ago, people had lost their way to the point where there was a need for a man to stand up and teach on a mass scale.

 

If there is one thing that all major world religions have in common, if we remove the order to worship, then we see some vital things:

 

-An external force that is far greater than we are

-Mankind being accountable for its actions

[zerkaloipustota]

This translation was not mentioned and it's special (for me, because of the inability to read the original text):

 

Hua-Ching Ni

29

Those who want to conquer the world and make it conform to their own desires will never have success,
for the sovereignty of the world is a subtle thing.
He who tries to shape it spoils it.
He who tries to hold it loses it.
The things of the world are constantly changing.
There is a time for things to move ahead,
and a following time for things to retreat;
a time to withdraw internally,
and a following time to expand externally;
a time to grow luxuriantly,
and a following time to decay;
a time to rise up,
and a following time to sink down low.
Therefore, one who does not separate his being from the deep nature of the universe avoids all extremes, extravagance and excess.

[Sketch]

• Verse Twenty Nine

Someone wants to own the world,

I don’t see them succeeding.

 

The universe is outside of our control,

The person who tries to will be defeated.

 

So put things in whatever order you choose,

 

Suck it up, or blow it out,

Strong or weak;

 

Or load it up, or dump it out;

 

The person you should emulate 

does away with extravagance.

They don’t put on any kind of show.